Non-compete contracts (from the insider)
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So the thread below got me looking at the insider and I clicked the "Enslaving your interns ..." link. When I was studying in college I got a part time job doing data entry in a local company. At some point they came out with this document they wanted us to sign that said we couldn't use "knowledge or know-how" gained working for them at any other company. They had programmers working for them, and I was studying software development so I could possibly have gained some "know-how" on some aspect of software development from talking to the developers. I went to the managers office and handed back the document and told him I couldn't sign it as it was too vague and all encompassing and could conceivably be used to prevent me working in any software company once i'd graduated. He said "fair enough" and I went back to work. There were a good few college students working there and as far as I know I was the only one to refuse to sign it. Anyone else had a similar experience?
Pete
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So the thread below got me looking at the insider and I clicked the "Enslaving your interns ..." link. When I was studying in college I got a part time job doing data entry in a local company. At some point they came out with this document they wanted us to sign that said we couldn't use "knowledge or know-how" gained working for them at any other company. They had programmers working for them, and I was studying software development so I could possibly have gained some "know-how" on some aspect of software development from talking to the developers. I went to the managers office and handed back the document and told him I couldn't sign it as it was too vague and all encompassing and could conceivably be used to prevent me working in any software company once i'd graduated. He said "fair enough" and I went back to work. There were a good few college students working there and as far as I know I was the only one to refuse to sign it. Anyone else had a similar experience?
Pete
I've seen these a few times here in the UK, and unless both parties agree to sign, non-compete's have no legal standing. Basically, they are trumped by restraint of trade, which is illegal in the EU.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
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I've seen these a few times here in the UK, and unless both parties agree to sign, non-compete's have no legal standing. Basically, they are trumped by restraint of trade, which is illegal in the EU.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
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So the thread below got me looking at the insider and I clicked the "Enslaving your interns ..." link. When I was studying in college I got a part time job doing data entry in a local company. At some point they came out with this document they wanted us to sign that said we couldn't use "knowledge or know-how" gained working for them at any other company. They had programmers working for them, and I was studying software development so I could possibly have gained some "know-how" on some aspect of software development from talking to the developers. I went to the managers office and handed back the document and told him I couldn't sign it as it was too vague and all encompassing and could conceivably be used to prevent me working in any software company once i'd graduated. He said "fair enough" and I went back to work. There were a good few college students working there and as far as I know I was the only one to refuse to sign it. Anyone else had a similar experience?
Pete
Yep... I refused to sign my company's non-compete... Told the boss (who is also the owner, small company), "I've was doing this before you and I'll probably be doing it after you", he couldn't disagree with that...
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So the thread below got me looking at the insider and I clicked the "Enslaving your interns ..." link. When I was studying in college I got a part time job doing data entry in a local company. At some point they came out with this document they wanted us to sign that said we couldn't use "knowledge or know-how" gained working for them at any other company. They had programmers working for them, and I was studying software development so I could possibly have gained some "know-how" on some aspect of software development from talking to the developers. I went to the managers office and handed back the document and told him I couldn't sign it as it was too vague and all encompassing and could conceivably be used to prevent me working in any software company once i'd graduated. He said "fair enough" and I went back to work. There were a good few college students working there and as far as I know I was the only one to refuse to sign it. Anyone else had a similar experience?
Pete
AFAIK, except in specific cases of going to a competitor to do the same job, very few non-competitor clauses are enforceable. I had a non-compete in my last firm and came to a competitor, in the same area - though a considerably senior role - and the could do SFA about it.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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I've seen these a few times here in the UK, and unless both parties agree to sign, non-compete's have no legal standing. Basically, they are trumped by restraint of trade, which is illegal in the EU.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
Even if you sign it, it is non-enforceable. The only thing the company can really do is place you on long-notice - I've seen six-months - so you are out of the loop long enough to lose any 'edge' and to withhold references if you go to a named competitor.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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So the thread below got me looking at the insider and I clicked the "Enslaving your interns ..." link. When I was studying in college I got a part time job doing data entry in a local company. At some point they came out with this document they wanted us to sign that said we couldn't use "knowledge or know-how" gained working for them at any other company. They had programmers working for them, and I was studying software development so I could possibly have gained some "know-how" on some aspect of software development from talking to the developers. I went to the managers office and handed back the document and told him I couldn't sign it as it was too vague and all encompassing and could conceivably be used to prevent me working in any software company once i'd graduated. He said "fair enough" and I went back to work. There were a good few college students working there and as far as I know I was the only one to refuse to sign it. Anyone else had a similar experience?
Pete
Peter Mulholland wrote:
I was the only one to refuse to sign it
Good for you. Another one that used to be common (but appears less so here in the States nowadays) is the "anything you do or discover off company hours is the property of the company." I can understand the rationale behind it, but I would absolutely refuse to sign that, preferring more honest, up-front communication if I'm doing some freelance work, obviously in totally unrelated industries. The amusing thing of course is that you can't ask a consultant to sign that. Marc
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So the thread below got me looking at the insider and I clicked the "Enslaving your interns ..." link. When I was studying in college I got a part time job doing data entry in a local company. At some point they came out with this document they wanted us to sign that said we couldn't use "knowledge or know-how" gained working for them at any other company. They had programmers working for them, and I was studying software development so I could possibly have gained some "know-how" on some aspect of software development from talking to the developers. I went to the managers office and handed back the document and told him I couldn't sign it as it was too vague and all encompassing and could conceivably be used to prevent me working in any software company once i'd graduated. He said "fair enough" and I went back to work. There were a good few college students working there and as far as I know I was the only one to refuse to sign it. Anyone else had a similar experience?
Pete
The only time I'll sign a non-compete is when working for a consulting firm. And I'll only sign if it only covers their current customers that I had worked with (not customers that fire them while I'm still there). It only seems fair that since they have gone the trouble of getting a customer that I wouldn't be able to leave the company and take that customer with me. If I'm that situation again I'll also ask for a clause to be put in place that states that if I bring in a customer I can try to take them when I leave. I think non-disclosure agreements are a better tool for preventing the kinds of problems that non-competes are trying to prevent.
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So the thread below got me looking at the insider and I clicked the "Enslaving your interns ..." link. When I was studying in college I got a part time job doing data entry in a local company. At some point they came out with this document they wanted us to sign that said we couldn't use "knowledge or know-how" gained working for them at any other company. They had programmers working for them, and I was studying software development so I could possibly have gained some "know-how" on some aspect of software development from talking to the developers. I went to the managers office and handed back the document and told him I couldn't sign it as it was too vague and all encompassing and could conceivably be used to prevent me working in any software company once i'd graduated. He said "fair enough" and I went back to work. There were a good few college students working there and as far as I know I was the only one to refuse to sign it. Anyone else had a similar experience?
Pete
Pretty much all you get as in intern is "know-how", if you can't use that, then what good is it? My understanding is that in the US, you cannot sign away your ability to use your skills and experience to make a living. There are a few rare exceptions for national security reasons, but more or less, it is impossible sue (and win) an employee just because he went to work for a competitor. HOWEVER, if you take anything with you like source code, customer lists, procedures, internal memos, designs, product plans, etc., then you are opening yourself up to a WORLD of hurt. I used to work for a company and one of our best managers left to form his own company to compete with us. We were annoyed, but that's life. Then this guy starts under-bidding us by $1/hour with every one of our customers. A customer gave us a copy of the other company's contract, one look at that and we sued. When we showed OUR contract and THEIR contract to the judge, he just started laughing. You see, our contract was written by a guy with only a high school diploma (and I am guessing not exactly a 4.0 GPA). The legal language he wrote was, shall we say, "unique". To the Judge, with a real law degree and having read thousands of legal documents, it probably looked like a cartoon. The other guy stole THAT. We won the case and got a large settlement. The last I heard, the founder of the other company's car had been repossessed.
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I've seen these a few times here in the UK, and unless both parties agree to sign, non-compete's have no legal standing. Basically, they are trumped by restraint of trade, which is illegal in the EU.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
If both parties are the company and the student/intern looking to keep a job and they sign, it might be enforceable then? The language on the one I was given actually said "knowledge or know-how", which could cover anything. Personally I would think it a bit silly for any student/intern to sign something like this, regardless of whether it's legal/enforceable. Surely the act of signing it lends it some validity.
Pete
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Peter Mulholland wrote:
I was the only one to refuse to sign it
Good for you. Another one that used to be common (but appears less so here in the States nowadays) is the "anything you do or discover off company hours is the property of the company." I can understand the rationale behind it, but I would absolutely refuse to sign that, preferring more honest, up-front communication if I'm doing some freelance work, obviously in totally unrelated industries. The amusing thing of course is that you can't ask a consultant to sign that. Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
anything you do or discover off company hours is the property of the company
Yeah, I think I may have seen that in a contract from a US based multinational. As far as I'm concerned, they're paying for the work I put in during the day in the office. Anything I do "off company hours" is on my own time and my dime, so it belongs to me. I'm happy enough to study at home and do a bit of research/reading on whatever I'm working on, but if I do something for my own amusement/advancement that isn't related to the day job then thay can't have any claim on it. I mean, I'm not signing my soul away, I'm just taking a job.
Pete
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So the thread below got me looking at the insider and I clicked the "Enslaving your interns ..." link. When I was studying in college I got a part time job doing data entry in a local company. At some point they came out with this document they wanted us to sign that said we couldn't use "knowledge or know-how" gained working for them at any other company. They had programmers working for them, and I was studying software development so I could possibly have gained some "know-how" on some aspect of software development from talking to the developers. I went to the managers office and handed back the document and told him I couldn't sign it as it was too vague and all encompassing and could conceivably be used to prevent me working in any software company once i'd graduated. He said "fair enough" and I went back to work. There were a good few college students working there and as far as I know I was the only one to refuse to sign it. Anyone else had a similar experience?
Pete
I was asked to sign a non-compete agreement as a consultant! Of course I refused and the company guy told me it was just to protect them from consultants stealing their business. So, I figured that was fair enough and asked if they would sign a non-compete with exactly the same wording but their company and my name exchanged. I figured that since I have 100's of clients, it would only be fair that they refrain from contacting my clients as well. Of course, he said he couldn't. End of discussion. We still chat every once in a while and they still want me to do consulting and I still ask if they've changed their stance on the non-compete agreement.
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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If both parties are the company and the student/intern looking to keep a job and they sign, it might be enforceable then? The language on the one I was given actually said "knowledge or know-how", which could cover anything. Personally I would think it a bit silly for any student/intern to sign something like this, regardless of whether it's legal/enforceable. Surely the act of signing it lends it some validity.
Pete
Peter Mulholland wrote:
If both parties are the company and the student/intern looking to keep a job and they sign, it might be enforceable then?
No - it's still restraint of trade.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
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So the thread below got me looking at the insider and I clicked the "Enslaving your interns ..." link. When I was studying in college I got a part time job doing data entry in a local company. At some point they came out with this document they wanted us to sign that said we couldn't use "knowledge or know-how" gained working for them at any other company. They had programmers working for them, and I was studying software development so I could possibly have gained some "know-how" on some aspect of software development from talking to the developers. I went to the managers office and handed back the document and told him I couldn't sign it as it was too vague and all encompassing and could conceivably be used to prevent me working in any software company once i'd graduated. He said "fair enough" and I went back to work. There were a good few college students working there and as far as I know I was the only one to refuse to sign it. Anyone else had a similar experience?
Pete
Legalities aside, it kinda defeats the purpose of being an intern.
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Peter Mulholland wrote:
I was the only one to refuse to sign it
Good for you. Another one that used to be common (but appears less so here in the States nowadays) is the "anything you do or discover off company hours is the property of the company." I can understand the rationale behind it, but I would absolutely refuse to sign that, preferring more honest, up-front communication if I'm doing some freelance work, obviously in totally unrelated industries. The amusing thing of course is that you can't ask a consultant to sign that. Marc
I've found that clause to be pretty common in this industry... And I wouldn't sign it if it was phrased like that... One that I did sign, though, basically asserted company ownership of anything I do using company resources (Equipment, offices, etc) and anything I do on my own time that's, in layman's terms, is stuff I would normally be doing at work. (While working for that employer, of course) So if I wrote a trading system at home, the company could claim ownership... If I wrote a computer game, or a word processor, or a novel (case in point), they'd have no claim at all, even if I profited off of it. Given appropriate compensation, I think that's pretty fair.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Marc Clifton wrote:
anything you do or discover off company hours is the property of the company
Yeah, I think I may have seen that in a contract from a US based multinational. As far as I'm concerned, they're paying for the work I put in during the day in the office. Anything I do "off company hours" is on my own time and my dime, so it belongs to me. I'm happy enough to study at home and do a bit of research/reading on whatever I'm working on, but if I do something for my own amusement/advancement that isn't related to the day job then thay can't have any claim on it. I mean, I'm not signing my soul away, I'm just taking a job.
Pete
The only time I could see that doing something in your off hours would possibly be the companies is if you actually used their resources to do it. At work (many years ago), people ran other businesses from their office taking phone calls and doing work on their company machine. For us developers, I have known others (not where I work today) to take any and all software home and say they can do that and it is not the company's IP. Getting tools or free compilers to do things at home is simple enough that nobody should do this. But if the company paided for the compiler, I think that have a right to what it makes.
Steve Maier
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So the thread below got me looking at the insider and I clicked the "Enslaving your interns ..." link. When I was studying in college I got a part time job doing data entry in a local company. At some point they came out with this document they wanted us to sign that said we couldn't use "knowledge or know-how" gained working for them at any other company. They had programmers working for them, and I was studying software development so I could possibly have gained some "know-how" on some aspect of software development from talking to the developers. I went to the managers office and handed back the document and told him I couldn't sign it as it was too vague and all encompassing and could conceivably be used to prevent me working in any software company once i'd graduated. He said "fair enough" and I went back to work. There were a good few college students working there and as far as I know I was the only one to refuse to sign it. Anyone else had a similar experience?
Pete
I do not work where they have non-compete contracts. It is at the same cruddy bottom as "unpaid internships".
"Incorrectly attributing quotes to revered historical figures is the work of fools and gerrymanderers; but hey, that's the internet for you." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Pretty much all you get as in intern is "know-how", if you can't use that, then what good is it? My understanding is that in the US, you cannot sign away your ability to use your skills and experience to make a living. There are a few rare exceptions for national security reasons, but more or less, it is impossible sue (and win) an employee just because he went to work for a competitor. HOWEVER, if you take anything with you like source code, customer lists, procedures, internal memos, designs, product plans, etc., then you are opening yourself up to a WORLD of hurt. I used to work for a company and one of our best managers left to form his own company to compete with us. We were annoyed, but that's life. Then this guy starts under-bidding us by $1/hour with every one of our customers. A customer gave us a copy of the other company's contract, one look at that and we sued. When we showed OUR contract and THEIR contract to the judge, he just started laughing. You see, our contract was written by a guy with only a high school diploma (and I am guessing not exactly a 4.0 GPA). The legal language he wrote was, shall we say, "unique". To the Judge, with a real law degree and having read thousands of legal documents, it probably looked like a cartoon. The other guy stole THAT. We won the case and got a large settlement. The last I heard, the founder of the other company's car had been repossessed.
One non-compete that I know of was a friend of mine that sold his company for millions. They wanted him to know startup a new company doing the same thing and stealing all of their customers. It was only for 2 years, so he took his money, did a couple other businesses , and then when ithe non-compete expired, he contacted all of the old customers and took 80% away because they were not happy with their service for the last couple of years and knew him.
Steve Maier
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So the thread below got me looking at the insider and I clicked the "Enslaving your interns ..." link. When I was studying in college I got a part time job doing data entry in a local company. At some point they came out with this document they wanted us to sign that said we couldn't use "knowledge or know-how" gained working for them at any other company. They had programmers working for them, and I was studying software development so I could possibly have gained some "know-how" on some aspect of software development from talking to the developers. I went to the managers office and handed back the document and told him I couldn't sign it as it was too vague and all encompassing and could conceivably be used to prevent me working in any software company once i'd graduated. He said "fair enough" and I went back to work. There were a good few college students working there and as far as I know I was the only one to refuse to sign it. Anyone else had a similar experience?
Pete
I seriously doubt that's enforceable... You can't prevent someone from using gained knowledge... In the financial industry, particularly with traders or salesmen, you have what's known as "Garden Leave." After you've given notice or been laid-off, you spend the next 30, 60, or 90 days on garden leave before you can start another job. During that time, you're being paid your full salary (But usually no commission or bonus), but not actually working. Depending on the job, they might make you come into the office every day, but usually you're just paid to stay home. The trick is that when you're working for a trading desk, you generally know, or have a good idea of, the group's portfolio positions (Which stocks/bonds/contracts they own), so the garden leave ensures that your inside knowledge is at least X days out-of-date. That way, you can't go to a competitor and say "Well, I know they own X, Y, and Z, so let's drive down the price on those securities". It also gives them time to let all of their contacts know that you're no longer with them... Brokers, clients, other traders, etc. EDIT: As a programmer, though, I haven't been subject to this yet... Though I know of two other programmers (former coworkers) that were stuck with a clause like this.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
So the thread below got me looking at the insider and I clicked the "Enslaving your interns ..." link. When I was studying in college I got a part time job doing data entry in a local company. At some point they came out with this document they wanted us to sign that said we couldn't use "knowledge or know-how" gained working for them at any other company. They had programmers working for them, and I was studying software development so I could possibly have gained some "know-how" on some aspect of software development from talking to the developers. I went to the managers office and handed back the document and told him I couldn't sign it as it was too vague and all encompassing and could conceivably be used to prevent me working in any software company once i'd graduated. He said "fair enough" and I went back to work. There were a good few college students working there and as far as I know I was the only one to refuse to sign it. Anyone else had a similar experience?
Pete