Schools ....
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Whichever campaign I have seen till date in US mentions poor state of schools. Why is it that despite so much interest there is apparently no change in the school system? ... or is it just election crap to create an issue that does not exist? :confused: My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers
The first thing to understand about a US politician's obbsession with schools is that none of them actually want to do anything about it. What they want is the "credit" for doing something about it. If they were to actually do something about it, they would need to: 1. Intelligently spend money 2. Hold parents responsible 3. Come up with good basic plans and stick with them 4. Hold teachers responsible 5. Stop spending time and money on students that truly don't want to learn 6. Hold administrators responsible 7. Make higher education more affordable 8. Hold themselves responsible No politician I've ever heard of anywhere on the planet is capable of doing these simple 8 steps (especially #8). Thus we are left with a bunch of scumbags who want to complain about schools, give the illusion of actually doing something and take the credit for any jump in test scores (caused by dumbing down the test). Mike Mullikin :beer:
Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps. - Emo Philips
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The first thing to understand about a US politician's obbsession with schools is that none of them actually want to do anything about it. What they want is the "credit" for doing something about it. If they were to actually do something about it, they would need to: 1. Intelligently spend money 2. Hold parents responsible 3. Come up with good basic plans and stick with them 4. Hold teachers responsible 5. Stop spending time and money on students that truly don't want to learn 6. Hold administrators responsible 7. Make higher education more affordable 8. Hold themselves responsible No politician I've ever heard of anywhere on the planet is capable of doing these simple 8 steps (especially #8). Thus we are left with a bunch of scumbags who want to complain about schools, give the illusion of actually doing something and take the credit for any jump in test scores (caused by dumbing down the test). Mike Mullikin :beer:
Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps. - Emo Philips
because of the emphasis on mandatory test scores, Vermont's governor has recently considered rejecting federal funds. i wish more states were like Vermont (or Montana, which rejects Federal highway money because of the speed limit issue). -c
I'm not the droid you're looking for.
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US children test scores are those of third world countries. Why is this? Because for the most part, the government dictates how tax dollars are to be spent at in the public school system. You therefore have government involved in pedagogical issues, which is no place for gov't. I read a statistic somewhere that said that for every dollar invested per child, the amount that actually goes directly to the child's education (material, teacher salary, etc), is less than 1 cent. There's a lot of overhead, a lot of BS, and a lot of "we don't care" attitude on the part of many (not all) teachers. What's worse, everyone seems to think that technology is the answer, so a lot of money goes into computers and other things worthless to real education (I'm talking Kindergarten to junior highschool level here. Highschool, yes, I can see the benefit of computers). Another factor is that schools (like in California) get state money based on the student's test scores. This affects teacher salaries. Therefore, teachers try to migrate to higher paid jobs which are of course in the areas of the country that are more affluent, have a better home life for the child, better nutrition, etc. As a result, the "poor" schools are left with, basically, the sh*tty teachers. Any freshman economics student could have told you that's what would happen. Those are just a few of the reasons. The gov't should get out of pedagogy and needs to seriously reform its funding of public schools. Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka1 cent per $1? My local district operates on a budget (this year) of around $110 million. Of that, around $75 million is the education fund, which pays teacher salaries, benefits, classroom supplies, textbooks, etc. $12 million or so is operations, and the rest is transportation (busses), debt payment, and other stuff. So, rougly two orders of magnitude off from your numbers. Jeff Sand jsand at interaccess dot com
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US children test scores are those of third world countries. Why is this? Because for the most part, the government dictates how tax dollars are to be spent at in the public school system. You therefore have government involved in pedagogical issues, which is no place for gov't. I read a statistic somewhere that said that for every dollar invested per child, the amount that actually goes directly to the child's education (material, teacher salary, etc), is less than 1 cent. There's a lot of overhead, a lot of BS, and a lot of "we don't care" attitude on the part of many (not all) teachers. What's worse, everyone seems to think that technology is the answer, so a lot of money goes into computers and other things worthless to real education (I'm talking Kindergarten to junior highschool level here. Highschool, yes, I can see the benefit of computers). Another factor is that schools (like in California) get state money based on the student's test scores. This affects teacher salaries. Therefore, teachers try to migrate to higher paid jobs which are of course in the areas of the country that are more affluent, have a better home life for the child, better nutrition, etc. As a result, the "poor" schools are left with, basically, the sh*tty teachers. Any freshman economics student could have told you that's what would happen. Those are just a few of the reasons. The gov't should get out of pedagogy and needs to seriously reform its funding of public schools. Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka MuraokaBut, I think that is the state of public schools in most places. Teachers do not care much about educating - and children, at an early age, may not really grasp the imprtance of education. Like you said before, it boils down to the parents taking responsibility of the child. I am lucky to have parents, who took the responsibility seriously. Respecting teachers, even when they may not be upto the mark, was very important to them. The paradox is public schools paying high (or public schools even existing) in affluent areas. Government is supposed to provide basic services only when it is uneconomical for a private organization to provide the same thing at an affordable price. The final question: How can a better distribution of good teachers be achieved? ... or is it that the education system is quite alright (people never seem to be satisfies with what they have :-D), and parents need to take responsibility of the child's progress? Thomas My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers
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One more thing (see previous post) Another major contributing factor is homelife. US children watch more telivision per week than any other country, and the television to homework ratio is like 2:1 or 3:1. Parents, if not single or divorced, are usually both working, and neither have time to sufficiently devote to their children. Education, when public schools were created, was intended to supplement home life. Now, school is more like a big prison your send your kids to so they have something to do. But the point here is that parents seem to be putting the entire onus of education onto the educational system. I see so many parents that have no concept of their responsibility in their child's education. Why they even had children is amazing to me. I believe in the original charter--I am my child's primary teacher, and the school is there to fill in the gaps. BTW, I have an 11 year old son. He's been going to a Waldorf school since Kindergarten. Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka MuraokaMarc Clifton wrote: I am my child's primary teacher, and the school is there to fill in the gaps. The problem here is that they are not 'filling in the gaps'. - My child comes home with work to do that is NOT issued homework, but rather work that was not completed in class. What is this teaching our kids? It is teaching them that they can fluff off in school and take up family time to complete their work. What happens when they get into the word and find out that, when the boss says he wants it on his desk by 4pm you can't turn in your work the next day. - My child comes home with home work that has instructions that can confuse even me sometimes. Do this, do that, put this here but only on alternate Thursdays... I even have found things like word puzzles with spelling errors in them or omitted words. - Why can I not check up on my Childs progress via the web? I'll tell you why... Because 90% of the teachers I speak with in his school are completely computer illiterate and probably don't even know what the web is. - Why can't I go to the web and get a list of my Childs home work for each day? See above… They require that the child bring it home every day. I am sorry, but I am not going to stand over my kid with a rubber hose and force him to 'fess up' that he has homework. If he says that he forgot it, then he forgot it. If it makes it home I will make sure it gets done. If I could go somewhere and get it when he forgets it I would, but I should not have to chase down some kid in his class to get photocopies of it when the kid leaves it at school. He should not be able to leave it at school in the first place. - Each year my child is in class I go into the classroom to visit with the teacher and the first thing I do is pick up the classroom dictionary and try to find the word Internet. It has never been in there. My child in in 7th grade. For crying out loud, is it too much to ask that the schools enter the 90's? - Each day my child spends an equal amount to time moving from class to class, etc.. Than he does in class. Why is that? - I had to get my child classified as learning disabled just so I could get him into a better (smaller class) when he is NOT learning disabled (has above average IQ). This pearl of advice came directly from the school administration. (and yes, even with a smaller class he is still allowed to leave without his homework) Al this, and I am considered to be in one of the top school systems in the area….. I could go on for hours wi
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The first thing to understand about a US politician's obbsession with schools is that none of them actually want to do anything about it. What they want is the "credit" for doing something about it. If they were to actually do something about it, they would need to: 1. Intelligently spend money 2. Hold parents responsible 3. Come up with good basic plans and stick with them 4. Hold teachers responsible 5. Stop spending time and money on students that truly don't want to learn 6. Hold administrators responsible 7. Make higher education more affordable 8. Hold themselves responsible No politician I've ever heard of anywhere on the planet is capable of doing these simple 8 steps (especially #8). Thus we are left with a bunch of scumbags who want to complain about schools, give the illusion of actually doing something and take the credit for any jump in test scores (caused by dumbing down the test). Mike Mullikin :beer:
Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps. - Emo Philips
Mike Mullikin wrote: Hold teachers responsible YES! Mike Mullikin wrote: Stop spending time and money on students that truly don't want to learn YES! Mike Mullikin wrote: Hold administrators responsible YES! Mike Mullikin wrote: Make higher education more affordable YES! I would vote for this guy!
Paul Watson wrote: "At the end of the day it is what you produce that counts, not how many doctorates you have on the wall."
George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things."
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Whichever campaign I have seen till date in US mentions poor state of schools. Why is it that despite so much interest there is apparently no change in the school system? ... or is it just election crap to create an issue that does not exist? :confused: My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers
Thomas George wrote: Why is it that despite so much interest there is apparently no change in the school system? ... or is it just election crap to create an issue that does not exist? Several reasons, IMHO: - Quality of education varies wildly across the country, with larger cities often suffering from overcrowding and associated problems quite badly. This brings down the average, making us all look worse. - Interest != motivation. Think "The Simpsons" - how many times does Mrs. Lovejoy yell "Won't someone please think about the children"... Now, how often does she actually do anything? - It's the perfect campaign issue, as when it comes right down to it, the gov't can't do much about it anyway, but pouring money or legislation into it makes them look like they care. And if the parents are willing to be lulled into believing they can ship their kids off and this black box of a school will automagically turn them into intelligent, productive members of society... well, what politician would argue!
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
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well it means what it says i sent 2 packages overseas long b4 xmas ... neither have arrived ... no info 5 letters were sent to me ... none have arrived ... no info worse ... nobody is responsible ... nobody can put me thru to some who is ... and nobody seems to actually understand anything about anything that lies outside the united states
"traffic lights are for people who can't make their own decisions"
biz stuff about meInteresting... I've always found that anything sent (not using couriers) from the US to the UK take 7 or less days; anything I send from the UK to the US takes 3-6 weeks. [edit]And yet when I was in Illinois waiting for some mail from within Illinois, it took 10 days :laugh:[/edit] Paul Pleasently caving in, I come undone - Queens of the Stone Age, No One Knows
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u know i wondered such things til i moved here ... i thought other countries were very bad at service level stuff in general and i thought the states would be "the crown jewel" ... ha! what a joke i think 3rd world africa is better at resolving problems and dealing with responsibility generally than here if the usps is anything to go by al quaeda and saddam and the rest can save their bombs ... the whole place will implode on its own in the not too distant future
"traffic lights are for people who can't make their own decisions"
biz stuff about meYou must be doing something wrong. We regularly send letters and packages to Shanghai without any trouble.
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US children test scores are those of third world countries. Why is this? Because for the most part, the government dictates how tax dollars are to be spent at in the public school system. You therefore have government involved in pedagogical issues, which is no place for gov't. I read a statistic somewhere that said that for every dollar invested per child, the amount that actually goes directly to the child's education (material, teacher salary, etc), is less than 1 cent. There's a lot of overhead, a lot of BS, and a lot of "we don't care" attitude on the part of many (not all) teachers. What's worse, everyone seems to think that technology is the answer, so a lot of money goes into computers and other things worthless to real education (I'm talking Kindergarten to junior highschool level here. Highschool, yes, I can see the benefit of computers). Another factor is that schools (like in California) get state money based on the student's test scores. This affects teacher salaries. Therefore, teachers try to migrate to higher paid jobs which are of course in the areas of the country that are more affluent, have a better home life for the child, better nutrition, etc. As a result, the "poor" schools are left with, basically, the sh*tty teachers. Any freshman economics student could have told you that's what would happen. Those are just a few of the reasons. The gov't should get out of pedagogy and needs to seriously reform its funding of public schools. Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka MuraokaMarc Clifton wrote: Another factor is that schools (like in California) get state money based on the student's test scores. This affects teacher salaries. Therefore, teachers try to migrate to higher paid jobs which are of course in the areas of the country that are more affluent, have a better home life for the child, better nutrition, etc. As a result, the "poor" schools are left with, basically, the sh*tty teachers. Any freshman economics student could have told you that's what would happen. Federal funding is a part of the money schools receive. Another portion comes from property taxes. I would think that schools in more affluent districts would have greater property values and more money from the taxes on those properties.
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The first thing to understand about a US politician's obbsession with schools is that none of them actually want to do anything about it. What they want is the "credit" for doing something about it. If they were to actually do something about it, they would need to: 1. Intelligently spend money 2. Hold parents responsible 3. Come up with good basic plans and stick with them 4. Hold teachers responsible 5. Stop spending time and money on students that truly don't want to learn 6. Hold administrators responsible 7. Make higher education more affordable 8. Hold themselves responsible No politician I've ever heard of anywhere on the planet is capable of doing these simple 8 steps (especially #8). Thus we are left with a bunch of scumbags who want to complain about schools, give the illusion of actually doing something and take the credit for any jump in test scores (caused by dumbing down the test). Mike Mullikin :beer:
Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps. - Emo Philips
Even if politician's do care about the public education system, how many of them do you think have their children in this system. I bet there are very few, if any of them that do not have their kids in private school's. So from that point of view, there is very little motivation to make sure any of their initiatives actually work besides helping them get re-elected.
Build a man a fire, and he will be warm for a day
Light a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life! -
Whichever campaign I have seen till date in US mentions poor state of schools. Why is it that despite so much interest there is apparently no change in the school system? ... or is it just election crap to create an issue that does not exist? :confused: My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers
Its east to go on about but hard to fix......... Ideal election fodder :suss: The tigress is here :-D
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Whichever campaign I have seen till date in US mentions poor state of schools. Why is it that despite so much interest there is apparently no change in the school system? ... or is it just election crap to create an issue that does not exist? :confused: My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers
OK My 2 cents. Thomas George wrote: Why is it that despite so much interest there is apparently no change in the school system? Actually we have been seeing a change in the school systems. For the worse. Several people have mentioned the disparity between districts. The same is true internal to districts. For example the elementary (1-5) school my kids went to had excess parental involvement and so had plenty of supplies for the classrooms. The parents gave a lot. But this was seen as this school being favored so funding from taxes went to schools that had little involvement from the parents. So our school the parents supply all paper, and pencils, and supply copy supplies etc. to the office staff and the disadvantaged get it all free to be fair. Enough of my rant on that line. The end is this testing to even out the system is failing badly and now they want to migrate these tests from the state level to the national level. (So much for my love the of liberal influence on our educational system.) To balance out the districts they evaluate the district on how well they score in statewide tests. IF the school scores well they get extra funds (which actually are taken away from other districts as a tax on the school.) What has happened is that for the last several years my kids have been taught to be test takers and not to learn. A report from the state universities release a few months ago actually commented on this as a major problem. SO many kids think they are doing fine since they pass the tests. But these test are for the 8th grade level and with the kids again being taught to take tests and not learn they are failing in college. You have an excellent teacher that refuses to teach test taking and they are fired (or passed so they quit) and poor teachers that just play the game and do well. Also the amount of money that goes into sports is beyond my belief. Football coaches are often the highest paid positions (and by far.) We moved out of our last home for this very reason. The high school coach made 5 times what the department chairman salaries max was. We have stressed to our children not to be worried about these tests and to concentrate on learning. We will see shortly how well we have done. Even though my daughter is not in the top 10% or a merit finalist when it came time for the college entrance exam she did well enough to received a 50% merit scholarship from the school (that is for 4 years if she keeps her grades.) She starts next fall. "I will find
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Marc Clifton wrote: I am my child's primary teacher, and the school is there to fill in the gaps. The problem here is that they are not 'filling in the gaps'. - My child comes home with work to do that is NOT issued homework, but rather work that was not completed in class. What is this teaching our kids? It is teaching them that they can fluff off in school and take up family time to complete their work. What happens when they get into the word and find out that, when the boss says he wants it on his desk by 4pm you can't turn in your work the next day. - My child comes home with home work that has instructions that can confuse even me sometimes. Do this, do that, put this here but only on alternate Thursdays... I even have found things like word puzzles with spelling errors in them or omitted words. - Why can I not check up on my Childs progress via the web? I'll tell you why... Because 90% of the teachers I speak with in his school are completely computer illiterate and probably don't even know what the web is. - Why can't I go to the web and get a list of my Childs home work for each day? See above… They require that the child bring it home every day. I am sorry, but I am not going to stand over my kid with a rubber hose and force him to 'fess up' that he has homework. If he says that he forgot it, then he forgot it. If it makes it home I will make sure it gets done. If I could go somewhere and get it when he forgets it I would, but I should not have to chase down some kid in his class to get photocopies of it when the kid leaves it at school. He should not be able to leave it at school in the first place. - Each year my child is in class I go into the classroom to visit with the teacher and the first thing I do is pick up the classroom dictionary and try to find the word Internet. It has never been in there. My child in in 7th grade. For crying out loud, is it too much to ask that the schools enter the 90's? - Each day my child spends an equal amount to time moving from class to class, etc.. Than he does in class. Why is that? - I had to get my child classified as learning disabled just so I could get him into a better (smaller class) when he is NOT learning disabled (has above average IQ). This pearl of advice came directly from the school administration. (and yes, even with a smaller class he is still allowed to leave without his homework) Al this, and I am considered to be in one of the top school systems in the area….. I could go on for hours wi
Ray Cassick wrote: It is teaching them that they can fluff off in school and take up family time to complete their work. Then you teach your kids this is bad. My kids usually finish some home work in excess class time while they are waiting for others to catch up. Ray Cassick wrote: - Why can I not check up on my Childs progress via the web? I'll tell you why... Because 90% of the teachers I speak with in his school are completely computer illiterate and probably don't even know what the web is. I would not expect computer literacy to be important in elementary school. Let them learn to read/write first. You can help your kids to find answers using the web. Ray Cassick wrote: - Each day my child spends an equal amount to time moving from class to class, etc.. Than he does in class. Why is that? To be honest I find this hard to believe. If so move. My kids spend 10% moving between classes. 54 min classes and 6 min to move. Ray Cassick wrote: If it makes it home I will make sure it gets done. Well whose fault is it if it does not get home. Not the schools. I had this very problem with my son. But it was clearly his fault not his teachers. Ray Cassick wrote: 1 - I have to pay school tax. I also pay taxes to support welfare but to not insist that I collect. It is part of supporting society but I also agree with the issue of no control over what I am paying for. Ray Cassick wrote: 2 - I have to jump through hoops if I want to home school my child Well, having seen several home schooled children, most have failed when returned to society (uni or high school etc.) so there is some justification here. 3 and on back to item 1. Yes we have little control over the system but we can at least write call our representatives. Very few bother. "I will find a new sig someday."
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The first thing to understand about a US politician's obbsession with schools is that none of them actually want to do anything about it. What they want is the "credit" for doing something about it. If they were to actually do something about it, they would need to: 1. Intelligently spend money 2. Hold parents responsible 3. Come up with good basic plans and stick with them 4. Hold teachers responsible 5. Stop spending time and money on students that truly don't want to learn 6. Hold administrators responsible 7. Make higher education more affordable 8. Hold themselves responsible No politician I've ever heard of anywhere on the planet is capable of doing these simple 8 steps (especially #8). Thus we are left with a bunch of scumbags who want to complain about schools, give the illusion of actually doing something and take the credit for any jump in test scores (caused by dumbing down the test). Mike Mullikin :beer:
Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps. - Emo Philips
I agree with you sentiment here but these are hardly simple steps. The very fact that the only way you are going to hold responsibility that is not tainted is by testing is the major problem we have in the schools around me. Teachers and schools are held accountable to how well the students take tests and not how well they learn. For your item 7 higher education affordable. A major cost today is how much remedial classes are required. If the public system was doing a better job this would save thousands on not having to teach basic work at the uni level. For most of the rest of the items. Until you have special interests removed from getting thier special part it is not going to change. "I will find a new sig someday."
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US children test scores are those of third world countries. Why is this? Because for the most part, the government dictates how tax dollars are to be spent at in the public school system. You therefore have government involved in pedagogical issues, which is no place for gov't. I read a statistic somewhere that said that for every dollar invested per child, the amount that actually goes directly to the child's education (material, teacher salary, etc), is less than 1 cent. There's a lot of overhead, a lot of BS, and a lot of "we don't care" attitude on the part of many (not all) teachers. What's worse, everyone seems to think that technology is the answer, so a lot of money goes into computers and other things worthless to real education (I'm talking Kindergarten to junior highschool level here. Highschool, yes, I can see the benefit of computers). Another factor is that schools (like in California) get state money based on the student's test scores. This affects teacher salaries. Therefore, teachers try to migrate to higher paid jobs which are of course in the areas of the country that are more affluent, have a better home life for the child, better nutrition, etc. As a result, the "poor" schools are left with, basically, the sh*tty teachers. Any freshman economics student could have told you that's what would happen. Those are just a few of the reasons. The gov't should get out of pedagogy and needs to seriously reform its funding of public schools. Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka MuraokaMarc Clifton wrote: US children test scores are those of third world countries. Why is this? I am not saying some serious things are wrong but in qoutes like these you need to study what is being compared. I suspect only a selective set of 3rd world children are included. Marc Clifton wrote: Because for the most part, the government dictates how tax dollars are to be spent at in the public school system. Agree here. What happened to no taxation with out representation. Feds and state are to much involved at local levels. Marc Clifton wrote: I read a statistic somewhere that said that for every dollar invested per child, the amount that actually goes directly to the child's education (material, teacher salary, etc), is less than 1 cent. I have had some long talks on this line (private schools costing 1/2 public etc.) A major issue here is the impact of all having equal access. If a disabled child is sent to a public school the school must pay for a full time assistant. That plus the cost of sports is very high at least around me. Football coach make 250,000 and Math dept chairman maxes at 40K. Something is wrong. Marc Clifton wrote: Another factor is that schools (like in California) get state money based on the student's test scores. This get back to your teachers that do not care. I really agree with this. Around me those teachers that did care got fed up with teaching the kids to take tests and not to learn so they left (or were forced out.) SO you have those that just play the game. Until we get testing's effect changed I do not see we can really blame just the teachers for this. "I will find a new sig someday."