Natural Scrolling
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Background: I'm a long time Windows (and before that DOS) user both at work and home who over the years became disenchanted with both Microsoft and Windows. At work, I have no choice and Windows XP is still installed on my PC. At home, I experimented with Ubuntu for a while but eventually bought an iMac nearly 2 years ago. I love it - but that's not the point of this post. Foreground: A few months back when OS X Lion shipped I upgraded and immediately noticed Apple had reversed direction of the default mouse scroll to match a touch interface. I quickly set it back to the "normal" way. A few weeks later (after becoming comfortable with the new OS) I decided to switch it back to the default "natural" scrolling as a test. It took a couple weeks but I became used to it and quite like it. Oddly, my brain was able to automagically "switch" back and forth from "Windows scroll mode" to "Apple scroll mode" without any problem. Until just recently... For the last week I've found myself constantly scrolling the wrong way at work. It just got to the point that I went searching in the mouse settings to see if it was possible to change the Windows scroll mode to match the OS X scroll mode. Maybe it is "natural"... ?
meh, Tomato, Tomahto, Potato, Potahto
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Same happened to me : I have to switch between a German and a French keyboard at work resp. at home. (Yes, I could change the keyboard language with the built-in Windows feature and only use one of both, but heck, I've never bothered). So I found myself automagically typing in AZERTY at home and QWERTY at work, until mid of this year, at which point the QWERTY superseded the AZERTY typing. Now I keep writing A's instead of Q's and vice-versa (I really have to give the keyboard language switch a try, at this point). It seems that you can cope with a good and a less good solution for a period of time, but not indefinitely. Counter-example is cars : I own a car with a manual gearbox and Mrs.Rage's car has an automatic gearbox. And I can switch from one to the other without problem, so it seems I haven't reached the decision point yet.
Rage wrote:
Counter-example is cars
My car is an auto, but I drive a variety of Rural Fire Service vehicles, all manuals (with a bizarre variety of layouts, but that's a different issue). Since when I go out in one of them I'm almost always wearing my firefighting boots and I tend to wear shoes in my car, I have this weird reflex where a boot on my left foot automatically reaches out for a clutch pedal. My car is OK, but there are times when I've clipped the edge of the brake pedal in other auto cars. Ouch! Cheers, Peter
Software rusts. Simon Stephenson, ca 1994.
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Background: I'm a long time Windows (and before that DOS) user both at work and home who over the years became disenchanted with both Microsoft and Windows. At work, I have no choice and Windows XP is still installed on my PC. At home, I experimented with Ubuntu for a while but eventually bought an iMac nearly 2 years ago. I love it - but that's not the point of this post. Foreground: A few months back when OS X Lion shipped I upgraded and immediately noticed Apple had reversed direction of the default mouse scroll to match a touch interface. I quickly set it back to the "normal" way. A few weeks later (after becoming comfortable with the new OS) I decided to switch it back to the default "natural" scrolling as a test. It took a couple weeks but I became used to it and quite like it. Oddly, my brain was able to automagically "switch" back and forth from "Windows scroll mode" to "Apple scroll mode" without any problem. Until just recently... For the last week I've found myself constantly scrolling the wrong way at work. It just got to the point that I went searching in the mouse settings to see if it was possible to change the Windows scroll mode to match the OS X scroll mode. Maybe it is "natural"... ?
I think it's a question of what exactly is being scrolled. The screen or the item in the screen. 'Natural'? Odd term for it. My natural instinct is to claw at the straps, but that doesn't mean I'll make an interface like that.
_____________________________ Give a man a mug, he drinks for a day. Teach a man to mug... The difference between an ostrich and the average voter is where they stick their heads.
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I think it's a question of what exactly is being scrolled. The screen or the item in the screen. 'Natural'? Odd term for it. My natural instinct is to claw at the straps, but that doesn't mean I'll make an interface like that.
_____________________________ Give a man a mug, he drinks for a day. Teach a man to mug... The difference between an ostrich and the average voter is where they stick their heads.
smcnulty2000 wrote:
I think it's a question of what exactly is being scrolled.
The screen or the item in the screen.You're always scrolling something within a container. The screen within the browser window, data within a gadget, etc.. With Windows you're scrolling your perspective of the "something" - down means scroll so I can see more of whats below, up means scroll so I can see more of whats above. With OS X set for "Natural scrolling" you're scrolling the "something" within the container - down means move the "something" down, up means move the "something" up. As for the term "natural"... blame Steve Jobs. He's dead and doesn't give a damn!
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smcnulty2000 wrote:
I think it's a question of what exactly is being scrolled.
The screen or the item in the screen.You're always scrolling something within a container. The screen within the browser window, data within a gadget, etc.. With Windows you're scrolling your perspective of the "something" - down means scroll so I can see more of whats below, up means scroll so I can see more of whats above. With OS X set for "Natural scrolling" you're scrolling the "something" within the container - down means move the "something" down, up means move the "something" up. As for the term "natural"... blame Steve Jobs. He's dead and doesn't give a damn!
I actually had this conversation with a friend of mine three days ago. So, yes, that was kind of my point. He has adapted to the Mac form as well. He mentioned that it was all about being like an Ipad or Iphone.
_____________________________ Give a man a mug, he drinks for a day. Teach a man to mug... The difference between an ostrich and the average voter is where they stick their heads.
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There is no 'natural' way to use a mouse scroll wheel; twiddling a finger doesn't cause the view to scroll in any normal context that people experience in everyday life. (A touch screen has more precedent in normal life and doing it that way, or with click-drag as in a PDF viewer, makes obvious sense.)
Well, if I am reading a sheet of paper, and I place my finger on it and drag my finger toward myself, the paper moves in the same direction - i.e. toward me.
MVVM# - See how I did MVVM my way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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Rage wrote:
Counter-example is cars
My car is an auto, but I drive a variety of Rural Fire Service vehicles, all manuals (with a bizarre variety of layouts, but that's a different issue). Since when I go out in one of them I'm almost always wearing my firefighting boots and I tend to wear shoes in my car, I have this weird reflex where a boot on my left foot automatically reaches out for a clutch pedal. My car is OK, but there are times when I've clipped the edge of the brake pedal in other auto cars. Ouch! Cheers, Peter
Software rusts. Simon Stephenson, ca 1994.
Peter_in_2780 wrote:
My car is an auto
Real men drive stick. Always. Sorry - I hate automatic transmission. I never feel safe driving one, because the stupid things always shift at unexpected and unwanted times.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Background: I'm a long time Windows (and before that DOS) user both at work and home who over the years became disenchanted with both Microsoft and Windows. At work, I have no choice and Windows XP is still installed on my PC. At home, I experimented with Ubuntu for a while but eventually bought an iMac nearly 2 years ago. I love it - but that's not the point of this post. Foreground: A few months back when OS X Lion shipped I upgraded and immediately noticed Apple had reversed direction of the default mouse scroll to match a touch interface. I quickly set it back to the "normal" way. A few weeks later (after becoming comfortable with the new OS) I decided to switch it back to the default "natural" scrolling as a test. It took a couple weeks but I became used to it and quite like it. Oddly, my brain was able to automagically "switch" back and forth from "Windows scroll mode" to "Apple scroll mode" without any problem. Until just recently... For the last week I've found myself constantly scrolling the wrong way at work. It just got to the point that I went searching in the mouse settings to see if it was possible to change the Windows scroll mode to match the OS X scroll mode. Maybe it is "natural"... ?
You might want to try the free WizMouse utility - it has an option to reverse mouse scrolling.
Best wishes, Hans
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You might want to try the free WizMouse utility - it has an option to reverse mouse scrolling.
Best wishes, Hans
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Peter_in_2780 wrote:
My car is an auto
Real men drive stick. Always. Sorry - I hate automatic transmission. I never feel safe driving one, because the stupid things always shift at unexpected and unwanted times.
Software Zen:
delete this;So, real men don't share their cars with, shall we say, less agile family members? (We don't have a disabled parking sticker yet, but it won't be long coming...) I have met some #$%^ auto boxes in my time, but over the last 200,000+ km mine is well understood and entirely predictable, even down to its refusal to select 4th ("overdrive") until it's warmed up. Reading this before hitting send, I remember a winter I spent in NJ with a rent-a-tank. Forget what it was called - big-block Chev coupe with a hood a mile long. Had to drive in 1st for a month, because it would lose traction and get sideways in the snow when it changed up. Cheers, Peter
Software rusts. Simon Stephenson, ca 1994.
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Well, if I am reading a sheet of paper, and I place my finger on it and drag my finger toward myself, the paper moves in the same direction - i.e. toward me.
MVVM# - See how I did MVVM my way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
Yes, but that's not really anything like a scroll wheel. I mentioned click-drag scrolling, which does work that way. If you actually put a wheel on your paper, on a low friction surface, and pull the top of the wheel towards you so that it rotates like a mouse wheel, the paper would go up, so there is an argument that the MS version makes more sense.
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Yes, but that's not really anything like a scroll wheel. I mentioned click-drag scrolling, which does work that way. If you actually put a wheel on your paper, on a low friction surface, and pull the top of the wheel towards you so that it rotates like a mouse wheel, the paper would go up, so there is an argument that the MS version makes more sense.
BobJanova wrote:
pull the top of the wheel towards you so that it rotates like a mouse wheel, the paper would go up,
You're right - that had never occurred to me.
BobJanova wrote:
there is an argument that the MS version makes more sense.
Makes sense, anyway - but what's more natural, sliding a piece of papere about, or rolling a wheel on top of a piece of paper?
MVVM# - See how I did MVVM my way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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So, real men don't share their cars with, shall we say, less agile family members? (We don't have a disabled parking sticker yet, but it won't be long coming...) I have met some #$%^ auto boxes in my time, but over the last 200,000+ km mine is well understood and entirely predictable, even down to its refusal to select 4th ("overdrive") until it's warmed up. Reading this before hitting send, I remember a winter I spent in NJ with a rent-a-tank. Forget what it was called - big-block Chev coupe with a hood a mile long. Had to drive in 1st for a month, because it would lose traction and get sideways in the snow when it changed up. Cheers, Peter
Software rusts. Simon Stephenson, ca 1994.
Peter_in_2780 wrote: it would lose traction and get sideways in the snow when it changed up Exactly. My wife has a '96 Ford Thunderbird that's a 'tank'. It's awful in the snow, and it's touchy even on wet pavement.