What's your opinion about H-1B visa in the current economy?
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How many of you (especially American Citizens) support the H-1B Visa in the current economy? Kind of old news, Sun accuser suffers setback [^] Note: I got nothing against Nish(who came to USA on H-1B Visa), even I worked on that visa for a while. :-0 What is H-1B? The H-1B visa program lets skilled foreign workers work in the United States for up to six years. The part of the process, called the labor condition application, or LCA, requires employers to describe the salary that will be paid to a given guest worker and to testify that use of the H-1B won't harm working conditions of a U.S. employee in a comparable work role. Employers don't have to hire the H-1B worker referred to on an LCA, but they must provide notice of the LCA to their existing employees. Kant Sonork-100.28114 Don't :beer: and Drive.
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How many of you (especially American Citizens) support the H-1B Visa in the current economy? Kind of old news, Sun accuser suffers setback [^] Note: I got nothing against Nish(who came to USA on H-1B Visa), even I worked on that visa for a while. :-0 What is H-1B? The H-1B visa program lets skilled foreign workers work in the United States for up to six years. The part of the process, called the labor condition application, or LCA, requires employers to describe the salary that will be paid to a given guest worker and to testify that use of the H-1B won't harm working conditions of a U.S. employee in a comparable work role. Employers don't have to hire the H-1B worker referred to on an LCA, but they must provide notice of the LCA to their existing employees. Kant Sonork-100.28114 Don't :beer: and Drive.
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How many of you (especially American Citizens) support the H-1B Visa in the current economy? Kind of old news, Sun accuser suffers setback [^] Note: I got nothing against Nish(who came to USA on H-1B Visa), even I worked on that visa for a while. :-0 What is H-1B? The H-1B visa program lets skilled foreign workers work in the United States for up to six years. The part of the process, called the labor condition application, or LCA, requires employers to describe the salary that will be paid to a given guest worker and to testify that use of the H-1B won't harm working conditions of a U.S. employee in a comparable work role. Employers don't have to hire the H-1B worker referred to on an LCA, but they must provide notice of the LCA to their existing employees. Kant Sonork-100.28114 Don't :beer: and Drive.
I think employers have abused the H1-B to depress wages, and in doing so take very unfair advantage of the visa recipients. The conditions for allowing an employer to obtain h1-b's should take much stricter account of the relative availability of similar skills in the current local market. No offense to Nish :rose:, but I was startled that any Silicon Valley firm could justify an H1-B in the current economic climate, and suspect that they may well have taken advantage of his lack of familiarity with the local cost of living (highest housing cost in the US, easily top third in every category) to hire him at a below market cost that is unfair to him as well as to the many currently unemployed with similar skills that were likely available in the immediate area (which also has the highest current unemployment rate in the US, I believe, most of which is in the technical segment). The less justified a man is in claiming excellence for his own self, the more ready he is to claim all excellence for his nation, his religion, his race or his holy cause. - Eric Hoffer
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I'd rather they live and work here than live somewhere cheaper and still do contract work for US companies.
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
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How many of you (especially American Citizens) support the H-1B Visa in the current economy? Kind of old news, Sun accuser suffers setback [^] Note: I got nothing against Nish(who came to USA on H-1B Visa), even I worked on that visa for a while. :-0 What is H-1B? The H-1B visa program lets skilled foreign workers work in the United States for up to six years. The part of the process, called the labor condition application, or LCA, requires employers to describe the salary that will be paid to a given guest worker and to testify that use of the H-1B won't harm working conditions of a U.S. employee in a comparable work role. Employers don't have to hire the H-1B worker referred to on an LCA, but they must provide notice of the LCA to their existing employees. Kant Sonork-100.28114 Don't :beer: and Drive.
I say, if they are smart, talented, and want to work in the US, we should let them! I think it helps US companies to maintain their competitive edge to hire the best and brightest, regardless of where they're from. Saying there is a problem when a foreign person takes a job that a (native) US citizen might have otherwise had is short-sighted... I'd say we'd want all the smart people to come and live in our country. :cool: Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
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How many of you (especially American Citizens) support the H-1B Visa in the current economy? Kind of old news, Sun accuser suffers setback [^] Note: I got nothing against Nish(who came to USA on H-1B Visa), even I worked on that visa for a while. :-0 What is H-1B? The H-1B visa program lets skilled foreign workers work in the United States for up to six years. The part of the process, called the labor condition application, or LCA, requires employers to describe the salary that will be paid to a given guest worker and to testify that use of the H-1B won't harm working conditions of a U.S. employee in a comparable work role. Employers don't have to hire the H-1B worker referred to on an LCA, but they must provide notice of the LCA to their existing employees. Kant Sonork-100.28114 Don't :beer: and Drive.
Something about legalized slavery always bothered me.
"Perhaps the truth is less interesting than the facts?" -- Amy Weiss, RIAA's Senior Vice President of Communications.
It's the new math! 421 == 156 ! -
How many of you (especially American Citizens) support the H-1B Visa in the current economy? Kind of old news, Sun accuser suffers setback [^] Note: I got nothing against Nish(who came to USA on H-1B Visa), even I worked on that visa for a while. :-0 What is H-1B? The H-1B visa program lets skilled foreign workers work in the United States for up to six years. The part of the process, called the labor condition application, or LCA, requires employers to describe the salary that will be paid to a given guest worker and to testify that use of the H-1B won't harm working conditions of a U.S. employee in a comparable work role. Employers don't have to hire the H-1B worker referred to on an LCA, but they must provide notice of the LCA to their existing employees. Kant Sonork-100.28114 Don't :beer: and Drive.
I think its great. If I only wanted to hang out with socially inept overweight white guys I'd just put mirrors everwhere.
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INS + Logic ? you must be kidding! The primary purpose of the INS is to provide lifetime security to the otherwise unemployable. Some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could have thought of them - George Orwell
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How many of you (especially American Citizens) support the H-1B Visa in the current economy? Kind of old news, Sun accuser suffers setback [^] Note: I got nothing against Nish(who came to USA on H-1B Visa), even I worked on that visa for a while. :-0 What is H-1B? The H-1B visa program lets skilled foreign workers work in the United States for up to six years. The part of the process, called the labor condition application, or LCA, requires employers to describe the salary that will be paid to a given guest worker and to testify that use of the H-1B won't harm working conditions of a U.S. employee in a comparable work role. Employers don't have to hire the H-1B worker referred to on an LCA, but they must provide notice of the LCA to their existing employees. Kant Sonork-100.28114 Don't :beer: and Drive.
OK, I'll bite on this... Professionally, I have a problem with the way that company's treat/utilize H1B's. Specifically as cheap labor. I have witnessed two previous companies paying these folks the bare minimum in favor of hiring U.S. Citizens on more than one occasion. My understanding of the purpose of the H1B is “to pay foreign nationals the "prevailing wage" for the position; foreign workers must be paid at least 95% of the "prevailing wage" for the particular occupation and geographic region.” From what I’ve seen previously, there are instances where a new college grad was being paid 30k and an H1B working along side with several years of experience being paid 95% of 30k. This is not a good situation for employees (H1B or citizens) but a great situation for the companies. There in lies the problem; if a company can maintain a staff of fresh out of college programmers, keeping wages low and augmenting that staff with skilled H1B’s the overall wages for my chosen profession could be stagnant or worse, significantly reduced. Maybe I’m over generalizing this but I know the way many companies “think.” Personally, I do not have an issue with the H1B's. In fact, at my last place of employment I had a chance to work with several Indians, Pai (contact me if your reading this), became a very good friend and on our weekly Wednesday night "group" dinners, he became a regular. One of the saddest days was the last time I saw his smiling face at my going away dinner… I lived overseas for 10 years and still enjoy traveling… I enjoy meeting folks with different cultures. So far, in my career I have had the pleasure of meeting people from Russia, Romania, Ukraine, India and Britain… fun stuff :) Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser When access is allowed to a member, it said to be accessible. Otherwise, it is inaccessible. - MSDN:C# Programmer's Reference
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How many of you (especially American Citizens) support the H-1B Visa in the current economy? Kind of old news, Sun accuser suffers setback [^] Note: I got nothing against Nish(who came to USA on H-1B Visa), even I worked on that visa for a while. :-0 What is H-1B? The H-1B visa program lets skilled foreign workers work in the United States for up to six years. The part of the process, called the labor condition application, or LCA, requires employers to describe the salary that will be paid to a given guest worker and to testify that use of the H-1B won't harm working conditions of a U.S. employee in a comparable work role. Employers don't have to hire the H-1B worker referred to on an LCA, but they must provide notice of the LCA to their existing employees. Kant Sonork-100.28114 Don't :beer: and Drive.
I'd have to say it was all dependant upon the situation. I have a friend who is a manager for a very large company (everyone here would know it) who is the manager of a group where every member of the group is here on H-1B visas. Despite claims to the contrary, they did hire these people in at the extreme low end of the market average salary, and from my understanding, there are some severe limitations that will keep holders of this visa working for the company which initially sponsered the visa. Combine that with the fact that they've moved their corporate headquarters to Ireland to avoid paying US taxes, and 50% or more of their development/support is now outsourced to India. Not a very good corporate citizen. Employers providing existing employees notice of the LCA filed when they use H-1B to hire someone? Has anyone ever seen this anywhere? US coders are starting to see the same exodus of jobs that other industries have been feeling for years. The area where I grew up has been devestated as all of the factories in the area moved to Mexico or overseas for the cheaper labor. Seems like other countries where I've traveled are pretty uptight about having me come in. I remember having to explain in detail why I had to do the initial installation and training on software that I had developed, and why it couldn't have been done by one of their citizens on more than one visa application. If the visas where really used to bring in skills that were not availble in the area, I'd understand, but as I talk to friends out of work for a year now, I'm having a hard time believing that companies simply can't find qualified candidates here.
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I say, if they are smart, talented, and want to work in the US, we should let them! I think it helps US companies to maintain their competitive edge to hire the best and brightest, regardless of where they're from. Saying there is a problem when a foreign person takes a job that a (native) US citizen might have otherwise had is short-sighted... I'd say we'd want all the smart people to come and live in our country. :cool: Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Navin wrote: I'd say we'd want all the smart people to come and live in our country. I agree with that. However it is hard to agree with everything else when I have gone without a job this [edit]past previous[/edit] year for over nine months. I consider myself to be a very competent Windows developer. The problem is that there are just too many well qualified people fighting over the same jobs. In order for me to finally find a job, I had to wait until a job that matched my exact skills in order for me to beat out the other 150 candidates I would compete with for each job. I think that it really boils down to what a companies intent for hiring through the H-1B visa really is. If they actually could not use the local talent, then it makes sense. But if they are taking advantage of the person on the visa, I wouldnt agree with an economy like this.
Build a man a fire, and he will be warm for a day
Light a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life! -
How many of you (especially American Citizens) support the H-1B Visa in the current economy? Kind of old news, Sun accuser suffers setback [^] Note: I got nothing against Nish(who came to USA on H-1B Visa), even I worked on that visa for a while. :-0 What is H-1B? The H-1B visa program lets skilled foreign workers work in the United States for up to six years. The part of the process, called the labor condition application, or LCA, requires employers to describe the salary that will be paid to a given guest worker and to testify that use of the H-1B won't harm working conditions of a U.S. employee in a comparable work role. Employers don't have to hire the H-1B worker referred to on an LCA, but they must provide notice of the LCA to their existing employees. Kant Sonork-100.28114 Don't :beer: and Drive.
Kant wrote: support the H-1B Visa in the current economy not me. no offense to anyone who comes here looking for work, really. but there are plenty of americans who can fill 90% of the positions. if it's a highly specialized job then i guess there's no problem, but it's silly in poor taste to sponsor mid-level programmers. -c
I'm not the droid you're looking for.
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How many of you (especially American Citizens) support the H-1B Visa in the current economy? Kind of old news, Sun accuser suffers setback [^] Note: I got nothing against Nish(who came to USA on H-1B Visa), even I worked on that visa for a while. :-0 What is H-1B? The H-1B visa program lets skilled foreign workers work in the United States for up to six years. The part of the process, called the labor condition application, or LCA, requires employers to describe the salary that will be paid to a given guest worker and to testify that use of the H-1B won't harm working conditions of a U.S. employee in a comparable work role. Employers don't have to hire the H-1B worker referred to on an LCA, but they must provide notice of the LCA to their existing employees. Kant Sonork-100.28114 Don't :beer: and Drive.
Overall, the H1B visa program is a good idea but needs some modifications. As has been pointed out, H1B employees are supposed to be paid the same as their US/Green Card counterparts. This provision wasn't entirely put in to protect US job holders, but to prevent H1B visa holders from becoming indentured servants. I have written my senators with suggestions on how to tighten up the H1B program. A few key points follow: 1) Enforce the comparable salary rules. 2) H1B visa holds must be laid off before Residents/Green Card holders. 3) H1B visa holders cannot be a sole proprietor or majority partner in a corporation or company, nor a company an H1B visa owns as a partner sponsor his or her own H1B visa. (For those who don't know, one of the current scams is for an H1B visa holder to start a company which does nothing but sponsor H1B visa holders.) 4) A company may not have more H1B visa holders than Residents/Green Card holders. At one time there was a requirement that an H1B visa could only be sponsored if the company could show they couldn't find a comparably skilled resident. This created bizarre ads which were essentially the potential H1B visa holder's resume. I'm not sure I want to go this far, but I do think there needs to be some balance. As for the Sun case, the Judge is clearly incompetent. And wanna bet, Sun has already purged it's backups of the email evidence? But will Sun ever get charged with destroying evidence? Not a chance.
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How many of you (especially American Citizens) support the H-1B Visa in the current economy? Kind of old news, Sun accuser suffers setback [^] Note: I got nothing against Nish(who came to USA on H-1B Visa), even I worked on that visa for a while. :-0 What is H-1B? The H-1B visa program lets skilled foreign workers work in the United States for up to six years. The part of the process, called the labor condition application, or LCA, requires employers to describe the salary that will be paid to a given guest worker and to testify that use of the H-1B won't harm working conditions of a U.S. employee in a comparable work role. Employers don't have to hire the H-1B worker referred to on an LCA, but they must provide notice of the LCA to their existing employees. Kant Sonork-100.28114 Don't :beer: and Drive.
I think that the lead the US has in the global software industry is being eroded. One solution would definitly be to get more H-1B Visa workers working in the US, and the current US workers can be reassigned to elsewhere. What you must consider is, whether it is better for the US overall rather than how it effects a small group of the population who have become technically disabled. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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I think that the lead the US has in the global software industry is being eroded. One solution would definitly be to get more H-1B Visa workers working in the US, and the current US workers can be reassigned to elsewhere. What you must consider is, whether it is better for the US overall rather than how it effects a small group of the population who have become technically disabled. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
Colin Davies wrote: What you must consider is, whether it is better for the US overall rather than how it effects a small group of the population who have become technically disabled. I think if you look around though, you will find many well qualified people out of work, that are not technically disabled. If these people are being passed by for H-1B visa workers who will work for less, I think that erodes our industry more than a batch of techically disabled workers.
Build a man a fire, and he will be warm for a day
Light a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life! -
Colin Davies wrote: What you must consider is, whether it is better for the US overall rather than how it effects a small group of the population who have become technically disabled. I think if you look around though, you will find many well qualified people out of work, that are not technically disabled. If these people are being passed by for H-1B visa workers who will work for less, I think that erodes our industry more than a batch of techically disabled workers.
Build a man a fire, and he will be warm for a day
Light a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life!Paul Watt wrote: I think that erodes our industry more than a batch of techically disabled workers. I agree, but now that the US is entering the free world market place, it becomes more important to think of the global market in any decisions. If employers percieve it is better to pass up qualified US personal for H-1B visa holders, what does this say of the US personal. I suggest it says they are too expensive for their production results on a global basis. When a companies only course of remaing efficient becomes relocating to the developing world like the large shoe makers did, this only worse for the country of origin. Personally I am not a fan of glabalism and the global market idea because of this, and similar reasons, but I don't make the decisions. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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Paul Watt wrote: I think that erodes our industry more than a batch of techically disabled workers. I agree, but now that the US is entering the free world market place, it becomes more important to think of the global market in any decisions. If employers percieve it is better to pass up qualified US personal for H-1B visa holders, what does this say of the US personal. I suggest it says they are too expensive for their production results on a global basis. When a companies only course of remaing efficient becomes relocating to the developing world like the large shoe makers did, this only worse for the country of origin. Personally I am not a fan of glabalism and the global market idea because of this, and similar reasons, but I don't make the decisions. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
If this were the common case, I would agree with you. Unfortunately, qualifications are rarely the deciding factor, but rather the cost of the qualifications. When a company is allowed pay an H1-b worker what amounts to survival wages for their location, rather than hire a qualified available resident at the fair market wage, then the practice is fair to no one. "fair on a global basis" is no justification for permitting a practice that borders on indentured servitude at the expense of the community in which a company resides, purely for the benefit of that company. In summary, faily used H1-B could benefit all concerned, used as it too often is today, it only serves to feed xenophobia here.... Some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could have thought of them - George Orwell
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OK, I'll bite on this... Professionally, I have a problem with the way that company's treat/utilize H1B's. Specifically as cheap labor. I have witnessed two previous companies paying these folks the bare minimum in favor of hiring U.S. Citizens on more than one occasion. My understanding of the purpose of the H1B is “to pay foreign nationals the "prevailing wage" for the position; foreign workers must be paid at least 95% of the "prevailing wage" for the particular occupation and geographic region.” From what I’ve seen previously, there are instances where a new college grad was being paid 30k and an H1B working along side with several years of experience being paid 95% of 30k. This is not a good situation for employees (H1B or citizens) but a great situation for the companies. There in lies the problem; if a company can maintain a staff of fresh out of college programmers, keeping wages low and augmenting that staff with skilled H1B’s the overall wages for my chosen profession could be stagnant or worse, significantly reduced. Maybe I’m over generalizing this but I know the way many companies “think.” Personally, I do not have an issue with the H1B's. In fact, at my last place of employment I had a chance to work with several Indians, Pai (contact me if your reading this), became a very good friend and on our weekly Wednesday night "group" dinners, he became a regular. One of the saddest days was the last time I saw his smiling face at my going away dinner… I lived overseas for 10 years and still enjoy traveling… I enjoy meeting folks with different cultures. So far, in my career I have had the pleasure of meeting people from Russia, Romania, Ukraine, India and Britain… fun stuff :) Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser When access is allowed to a member, it said to be accessible. Otherwise, it is inaccessible. - MSDN:C# Programmer's Reference
Why would anyone want to come and work in US for 30k a year? :confused: especially, if there is a family to support. My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers
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If this were the common case, I would agree with you. Unfortunately, qualifications are rarely the deciding factor, but rather the cost of the qualifications. When a company is allowed pay an H1-b worker what amounts to survival wages for their location, rather than hire a qualified available resident at the fair market wage, then the practice is fair to no one. "fair on a global basis" is no justification for permitting a practice that borders on indentured servitude at the expense of the community in which a company resides, purely for the benefit of that company. In summary, faily used H1-B could benefit all concerned, used as it too often is today, it only serves to feed xenophobia here.... Some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could have thought of them - George Orwell
but, fair price is what the market offers. The third world offers people at much lower costs, and essentially becomes the fair price. If there is any mechanism to artifically decide this fair price, it is socialism, not capitalism :-D My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers
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but, fair price is what the market offers. The third world offers people at much lower costs, and essentially becomes the fair price. If there is any mechanism to artifically decide this fair price, it is socialism, not capitalism :-D My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers
In the context of a global market you are right. In the context of a local market with restricted access (normal green card holders, non- H1B) allowing a 5% discount for H1B (which is what the H1B allows) is NOT fair market but an artificial mechanism. In addition the H1B laws place some sevcere restrictions on the ability of the holder to change jobs while here, in effect condeming them to "shut up and do the job or go home" Another objection is that this is also unfairnto immigrants who went through the "normal" process (who have the same 5% discount to compete with), as well as to the H1B recipient, who is likely to be unaware of the costs of living in the environment where the job is offered (ask Nish if they warned him about the cost of "studio" apartments in the Mountain View area...). I'm all for competition, but not for allowing firms to take advantage of the unwary. At the same time, I have some difficulty in sympathizing with someone owning a $500,000 house in Silicon Valley who is unwilling to move to the central or Eastern US to take a job at 60% of the pay he used to make in a place where the same house costs less than $160,000... Over time, in a global economy, these things will even out, provided there are not artificial barriers. I see the H1B as an artificial mechanism that is not a fair substitute for more liberal immigration quotas. Some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could have thought of them - George Orwell