Some advice on study...
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If they question you just ask them how much of their IT education is still relevant to the job they are doing. I look around and I'm not programming in ADA on a Unix box. If attaining your current degree has taught you how to learn new things I'd call it good enough. Certifications can be good resume padding. I've got, er, 5 if memory serves. I always learned a little something new studying for those so they are not a total waste.
Kill some time, play my game Hop Cheops[^]
Yeah, that is one issue I'm concerned about. Going through a lot of trouble getting that degree and learning all kinds of stuff I'll never need again. You'll probably learn a bit, but not half as much when learning in your own time :)
It's an OO world.
public class Naerling : Lazy<Person>{
public void DoWork(){ throw new NotImplementedException(); }
} -
As some of you may know I have never had a study in IT. I studied a Bachelor Common Art and Cultural Sciences and a Master Media and Journalism (something completely different from IT). Now I never liked school and never liked the school system (just know what you have to know on an exam and you'll be okay). I still hold an MA title though, so I guess I've done alright :) Since programming is going really well for me (and I really like doing it) I wouldn't want my lack of IT schooling to be a problem for me later on in my life. Unfortunately many people and companies still consider some sort of degree a must if you want to work for them. I've heard many stories about incompetent teachers, incompetent fellow students, courses that are a joke, courses you'll never need in your life again, courses with outdated topics and material... And actually I've also had my fair share of experience with some of these issues. So what do you guys recommend? I really don't feel like going back to school or get a degree, but sometimes I think it would really help me. Then again, if I see some students in QA I really don't think I'd be better off studying. I've also considered the Microsoft Certification program and that is something I am probably going to do no matter what (although actually doing it is something completely different since I really dislike learning for exams). So go back to school? Or rely on my current MA title and have my resume and enthausiasm speak for itself? I know some people here have faced the same decision. What did you choose and how did it work out for you? The people that did an IT study, how was it and how did it help you? Thanks :)
It's an OO world.
public class Naerling : Lazy<Person>{
public void DoWork(){ throw new NotImplementedException(); }
}Find some deep and involved computer science topics that are recognizable to hiring managers. Learn them on your own, write about them and publish (maybe to CP). Include these as published articles on your resume and discuss them when discussing your technical interests in an interview. To me, this shows the same value as a CS degree.
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on the flip side, if you have any programming experience you are already off to a good start. These days try getting a programming job fresh out of school with the ink still wet on that paper.. and no experience.... its disheartening. Whether you go for the paper or not, you at least have some knowledge and something to showcase in your favor that is useful(the ability to write code)
Let's face it, after Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF! Be careful which toes you step on today, they might be connected to the foot that kicks your butt tomorrow. You can't scare me, I have children.
I've seen a lot of people say experience is more important than a degree (maybe not yet where I come from, but it will in a few years). That's good news :D
It's an OO world.
public class Naerling : Lazy<Person>{
public void DoWork(){ throw new NotImplementedException(); }
} -
RJOberg wrote:
Someone can look at it and realize that you have the drive to stick to something and get the job done
My boss said the exact same thing a few weeks back :)
RJOberg wrote:
I'm sure everyone has worked with someone who needs you to spell out everything in very small, easy to understand words
Yeah, he calls himself a 'senior' (and he is, but only in age...). It's true that I do at least have some experience. Thanks :)
It's an OO world.
public class Naerling : Lazy<Person>{
public void DoWork(){ throw new NotImplementedException(); }
} -
Yeah, that is one issue I'm concerned about. Going through a lot of trouble getting that degree and learning all kinds of stuff I'll never need again. You'll probably learn a bit, but not half as much when learning in your own time :)
It's an OO world.
public class Naerling : Lazy<Person>{
public void DoWork(){ throw new NotImplementedException(); }
} -
What're you thinking of doing? 4-year BS in, say, Computer Science? Seems like a lot of time to spend on something you don't like an don't really need. I think spending 4 years building up your work experience would be much more profitable than 4 years building debt. I personally love school. It's one of the best ways to jam your brain full of knowledge. I think I'd have a hard time teaching myself if I didn't have an expectation to turn in assignments on time and according to the requirements. In fact, I am about finished with a French class that is part of a community college and that does not have homework or a grade. I found that I dedicated very little of my own time to the class. Then again, that could just be because my mind is tired after 9 hours at work each day. I'm not sure if any of that would apply to you, but it's worth considering. Are you learning as much as you would at school? Do you feel you are missing certain underlying fundamentals? Do you plan on working while going to school? To give you some background on my experience, I graduated in 3.5 years with a BS in Computer Science (with a few other credentials). I had some very minor jobs in college (work study, internship). I am not sure if that experience helped, but I got a job lined up right out of college (that I wouldn't have been qualified for if I hadn't done the internship in college). I have never made fair market value in my area (always lingering between $10K to $25K below fair market value). However, I believe that is more a reflection of my decisions and personality than what employers would be willing to pay. I am guessing that with 3.5 years of experience, I would be making more money now and I'd have less debt, but I don't think I'd be as good at what I do, I'd be less knowledgeable in the more adacademic topics (to me, the fun stuff), and I would be less happy than I am now. Though, again, that is because of my personal preferences and proclivities. As a final note, there are probably some companies that would never consider hiring you or that will never get a chance because they use education as a filter. If your resume doesn't show the appropriate education, it may go straight to the waste bin, even with many years of experience. For example, Google may only want to hire PhD's. These may or may not be the types of companies you want to work for. When factoring in this information, you may want to consider where you want to end up and how you see your life in X number of years in the future. If you don't want to reti
I was thinking of maybe following evening class while still working. School, for me, is not a way to jam my brain full of knowledge. The pace of lectures and assignments has always felt more brainkilling to me. I almost spent more hours sleeping in class than in bed and I still managed to become MA with decent grades (although I did a year with really minimum grades and lots of retaking exams). I even failed my master thesis because I just couldn't find the will to do it anymore. But I didn't really like my study. I'm hoping IT will be more fun, but I am very much doubting it. Doing the stuff I like to do (opposed to what my teacher liked me to do) is not at all a problem. I learned SOLID and design patterns in my free time. I am exploring all parts of the .NET framework in my free time. I learned the C# syntax in my free time. Been doing WPF in my free time... And there is much more I want to do or know more about, such as F#, C++, WCF, parallel programming, building websites, etc. etc. etc... More than I would ever learn at any school I think ;) But try telling it on a job interview where you didn't get invited because you do not have some study on your resume... I am still young (turned 24 yesterday) so I don't know what I want to do with my life yet. Working at a company that takes only the best would be great, but if it means going back to school because that's all they care about I'm not sure if that's for me. I want to retire being a millionaire and the only way to do that is by being your own boss (aiming for the top to at least end up somewhere in the middle) ;) I do sometimes feel I am missing some fundamentals, but nothing Google can't usually solve :) Thanks for your input. Based on what you and others have said I think I shouldn't be going to school. It might help me get a job at Google or Microsoft or some other massive company (that probably pays massive salaries), but I think at this point school would be more in my way of education than actually contributing to it...
It's an OO world.
public class Naerling : Lazy<Person>{
public void DoWork(){ throw new NotImplementedException(); }
} -
I've seen a lot of people say experience is more important than a degree (maybe not yet where I come from, but it will in a few years). That's good news :D
It's an OO world.
public class Naerling : Lazy<Person>{
public void DoWork(){ throw new NotImplementedException(); }
}based on my education experience where I attended. As the IT Manager now, I would hire someone with no degree who could prove to me that they could program before I would hire a degree with no experience that could barely write any basic code. I say that only because I had the good fortune misfortune to go to what turned out to be basically a diploma mill. I had people that stood with me AT GRADUATION.. that could not write simple code and would get confused on things such as how to write a basic, simple function.. it was disheartening. However that being said, only two of us that graduated together have jobs in IT, the rest are working a walmart, McDonalds etcc.. because they got to their job interviews and bombed. The only thing that kept me going near the end was the fact that I knew that I worked my tail off to actually learn something and that I EARNED my 3.96 GPA. in the end, I know that I deserve my job and my degree, they know they skated and will have to live with the consequences the rest of their life. As we all know, you can skate through a programming job to some extent depending on who you work with, maybe produce bad code, but can produce some. These guys I'm talking about there is no skating or faking it, they simply cant write code. Either way, you seem to be intelligent, determined to succeed and I think that will stand you further than any piece of paper ever will.
Let's face it, after Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF! Be careful which toes you step on today, they might be connected to the foot that kicks your butt tomorrow. You can't scare me, I have children.
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I started off doing a degree in Computer Science and transitioned in the second year to Information Systems which was more about analysis, design and human computer interaction. I was lucky enough for the third year of my degree course being a placement in industry so when I graduated after the forth year I had work experience - I decided however to live a more adventurous life and went off to Nepal to trek for 3 months then returned and found a job working in a shop - I then worked as an administrator and when it became known I had a degree in IT I was pulled into IT projects. I now work as an analyst/developer in a large multinational with a really great bunch of people and that is what counts to me - working with the right people. With regards to degrees - I think as others have said a degree of any sort adds weight. If only to show that you are able to commit yourself to a goal and see it through. That said I would any day prefer working with someone like you who is experienced in practical IT matters than someone who had a degree in IT but had not proved themselves in the workplace. So yes a degree might help but then again what I think is really going to count is how good you are in communication, cooperation, mentoring and technical ability - if you can sell yourself on those points I think you will be on equal footing with a degree candidate(many of whom will not have those qualities)...
Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential.(Winston Churchill)
GuyThiebaut wrote:
and that is what counts to me - working with the right people.
Amen to that. I am currently working with some guys that really don't get it. While being nice guys I can have a laugh with it's not contributing to my own development and they are not quite as interested in developing themselves further. One of them has a degree in some IT study (and some experience in different companies, gotten from internships). That is also one of the reasons I started to think on this. For a moment, when I was hired and didn't know anything yet, it would've come down to the IT guy OR me. Luckily the company hired us both (as trainee's), and if they would now have to fire one of us it wouldn't be me. However, we can both say we have experience in VB, SQL, some other stuff and HE has a degree in IT... Who would you pick? :)
GuyThiebaut wrote:
So yes a degree might help but then again what I think is really going to count is how good you are in communication, cooperation, mentoring and technical ability
Good points, I think I'd rather develop those in my own time. So I think I will continue learning in my own time. At least my MA in Media and Journalism helps me write one hell of a resume ;p
It's an OO world.
public class Naerling : Lazy<Person>{
public void DoWork(){ throw new NotImplementedException(); }
} -
Find some deep and involved computer science topics that are recognizable to hiring managers. Learn them on your own, write about them and publish (maybe to CP). Include these as published articles on your resume and discuss them when discussing your technical interests in an interview. To me, this shows the same value as a CS degree.
Hell yeah, you're speaking my language! I hope that's how it works in the real world too... And I have actually written some articles on CP. Certainly planning to put that in my resume :)
It's an OO world.
public class Naerling : Lazy<Person>{
public void DoWork(){ throw new NotImplementedException(); }
} -
Naerling wrote:
My boss said the exact same thing a few weeks back :)
Well, I guess it is time for me to become a manager then. :sigh:
Sure looks good on your resume! "I said the same thing some manager once said" :laugh:
It's an OO world.
public class Naerling : Lazy<Person>{
public void DoWork(){ throw new NotImplementedException(); }
} -
As some of you may know I have never had a study in IT. I studied a Bachelor Common Art and Cultural Sciences and a Master Media and Journalism (something completely different from IT). Now I never liked school and never liked the school system (just know what you have to know on an exam and you'll be okay). I still hold an MA title though, so I guess I've done alright :) Since programming is going really well for me (and I really like doing it) I wouldn't want my lack of IT schooling to be a problem for me later on in my life. Unfortunately many people and companies still consider some sort of degree a must if you want to work for them. I've heard many stories about incompetent teachers, incompetent fellow students, courses that are a joke, courses you'll never need in your life again, courses with outdated topics and material... And actually I've also had my fair share of experience with some of these issues. So what do you guys recommend? I really don't feel like going back to school or get a degree, but sometimes I think it would really help me. Then again, if I see some students in QA I really don't think I'd be better off studying. I've also considered the Microsoft Certification program and that is something I am probably going to do no matter what (although actually doing it is something completely different since I really dislike learning for exams). So go back to school? Or rely on my current MA title and have my resume and enthausiasm speak for itself? I know some people here have faced the same decision. What did you choose and how did it work out for you? The people that did an IT study, how was it and how did it help you? Thanks :)
It's an OO world.
public class Naerling : Lazy<Person>{
public void DoWork(){ throw new NotImplementedException(); }
}Naerling wrote:
Unfortunately many people and companies still consider some sort of degree a must if you want to work for them.
I doubt that. There are probably a few companies like that. And certainly companies are willing to accept a degree instead of experience. But experience trumps everything.
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I've been writing code for 30 years - I don't need a degree anymore to get a job.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
I've been writing code for 30 years
Don't worry, John, you'll finish that program soon :)
MVVM# - See how I did MVVM my way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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As some of you may know I have never had a study in IT. I studied a Bachelor Common Art and Cultural Sciences and a Master Media and Journalism (something completely different from IT). Now I never liked school and never liked the school system (just know what you have to know on an exam and you'll be okay). I still hold an MA title though, so I guess I've done alright :) Since programming is going really well for me (and I really like doing it) I wouldn't want my lack of IT schooling to be a problem for me later on in my life. Unfortunately many people and companies still consider some sort of degree a must if you want to work for them. I've heard many stories about incompetent teachers, incompetent fellow students, courses that are a joke, courses you'll never need in your life again, courses with outdated topics and material... And actually I've also had my fair share of experience with some of these issues. So what do you guys recommend? I really don't feel like going back to school or get a degree, but sometimes I think it would really help me. Then again, if I see some students in QA I really don't think I'd be better off studying. I've also considered the Microsoft Certification program and that is something I am probably going to do no matter what (although actually doing it is something completely different since I really dislike learning for exams). So go back to school? Or rely on my current MA title and have my resume and enthausiasm speak for itself? I know some people here have faced the same decision. What did you choose and how did it work out for you? The people that did an IT study, how was it and how did it help you? Thanks :)
It's an OO world.
public class Naerling : Lazy<Person>{
public void DoWork(){ throw new NotImplementedException(); }
}After some 20 years as a developer, I went to Uni part time to study. I was so disappointed in the subject matter, and the level at which it was taught, that I went to talk to them about options. Best thing I ever did. I ended up getting credit for a number of courses that i could show I had a required level of expertise in, and being 'forgiven' some pre-requisite courses. I ended up getting a grad-dip in I.T. rather than just a B.IT (I actually got my bachelors a few years later, but that's another story) so my advice would be to make an appointment with the head of IT at your local uni, and explain what you want to get out of it - and see what they can do. There's no requirement to complete a degree - so you can just study subjects that interest you, and with a sympathetic person at the uni, you may actually get to do what you want, rather than what has been designed for the generic new entrant.
MVVM# - See how I did MVVM my way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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I've been writing code for 30 years - I don't need a degree anymore to get a job.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997I don't think newbies can use non-school experience as a self-promotion these days. Even middle school kids are developing phone apps. Someone with your years of experience I would appreciate from the gate because as a former manager, I know you know how to really "do things" without having grown up with the internet. Honestly, if I was in a position of hiring programmers again, if the applicant was born after the X-Generation, I would be more critical.
Blog updated as of Nov 2011!!! http://craptasticnation.blogspot.com Regarding the passing of Andy Rooney, a quote from myself: "I always loved his curmudgeonly rants as an existential part of my bitchy self"
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What're you thinking of doing? 4-year BS in, say, Computer Science? Seems like a lot of time to spend on something you don't like an don't really need. I think spending 4 years building up your work experience would be much more profitable than 4 years building debt. I personally love school. It's one of the best ways to jam your brain full of knowledge. I think I'd have a hard time teaching myself if I didn't have an expectation to turn in assignments on time and according to the requirements. In fact, I am about finished with a French class that is part of a community college and that does not have homework or a grade. I found that I dedicated very little of my own time to the class. Then again, that could just be because my mind is tired after 9 hours at work each day. I'm not sure if any of that would apply to you, but it's worth considering. Are you learning as much as you would at school? Do you feel you are missing certain underlying fundamentals? Do you plan on working while going to school? To give you some background on my experience, I graduated in 3.5 years with a BS in Computer Science (with a few other credentials). I had some very minor jobs in college (work study, internship). I am not sure if that experience helped, but I got a job lined up right out of college (that I wouldn't have been qualified for if I hadn't done the internship in college). I have never made fair market value in my area (always lingering between $10K to $25K below fair market value). However, I believe that is more a reflection of my decisions and personality than what employers would be willing to pay. I am guessing that with 3.5 years of experience, I would be making more money now and I'd have less debt, but I don't think I'd be as good at what I do, I'd be less knowledgeable in the more adacademic topics (to me, the fun stuff), and I would be less happy than I am now. Though, again, that is because of my personal preferences and proclivities. As a final note, there are probably some companies that would never consider hiring you or that will never get a chance because they use education as a filter. If your resume doesn't show the appropriate education, it may go straight to the waste bin, even with many years of experience. For example, Google may only want to hire PhD's. These may or may not be the types of companies you want to work for. When factoring in this information, you may want to consider where you want to end up and how you see your life in X number of years in the future. If you don't want to reti
I think the schooling depends on where the author lives. I know here in the midwest, many companies won't consider you without a college degree. On the East Coast several years ago, you needed "certification" versus a degree. Personally I did not have a computer internship in college. I used to joke while looking for my first graduation job, that I had a degree in Computer Science and could neuter a cat under 10 minutes. (I was a vet tech.) As a college freshman the internet was still new and shiny and I remember having mandatory classes and I was more advanced than the "teacher." I think it's hard for managers these days to decide on hiring people because young applicants these days have grown up with the internet, developing applications, and just having the access to programming computers, if that's what they want, like those of us of the X-Generation and before, never had. Think about Baby Boomers, Generation Xers, and those today (sometimes called Generation Y) and how their general computer experience differs. A Generation Y person with no formal education may seem like a threat to a Baby Boomer.
Blog updated as of Nov 2011!!! http://craptasticnation.blogspot.com Regarding the passing of Andy Rooney, a quote from myself: "I always loved his curmudgeonly rants as an existential part of my bitchy self"
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Hell yeah, you're speaking my language! I hope that's how it works in the real world too... And I have actually written some articles on CP. Certainly planning to put that in my resume :)
It's an OO world.
public class Naerling : Lazy<Person>{
public void DoWork(){ throw new NotImplementedException(); }
} -
After some 20 years as a developer, I went to Uni part time to study. I was so disappointed in the subject matter, and the level at which it was taught, that I went to talk to them about options. Best thing I ever did. I ended up getting credit for a number of courses that i could show I had a required level of expertise in, and being 'forgiven' some pre-requisite courses. I ended up getting a grad-dip in I.T. rather than just a B.IT (I actually got my bachelors a few years later, but that's another story) so my advice would be to make an appointment with the head of IT at your local uni, and explain what you want to get out of it - and see what they can do. There's no requirement to complete a degree - so you can just study subjects that interest you, and with a sympathetic person at the uni, you may actually get to do what you want, rather than what has been designed for the generic new entrant.
MVVM# - See how I did MVVM my way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
That is actually a good idea. I wouldn't have to follow all classes, but I would get a degree. It's like the best of both worlds :D Thanks for the tip!
It's an OO world.
public class Naerling : Lazy<Person>{
public void DoWork(){ throw new NotImplementedException(); }
} -
I don't think newbies can use non-school experience as a self-promotion these days. Even middle school kids are developing phone apps. Someone with your years of experience I would appreciate from the gate because as a former manager, I know you know how to really "do things" without having grown up with the internet. Honestly, if I was in a position of hiring programmers again, if the applicant was born after the X-Generation, I would be more critical.
Blog updated as of Nov 2011!!! http://craptasticnation.blogspot.com Regarding the passing of Andy Rooney, a quote from myself: "I always loved his curmudgeonly rants as an existential part of my bitchy self"
Hey! Where you been geek girl? :)
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
I've been writing code for 30 years - I don't need a degree anymore to get a job.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997A degree is useful to get a 'foot in the door' as many HR departments still have tick-lists rather than finding out about what the applicant is really like. For some, 30+ years experience isn't on the tick-list, but a degree / diploma is. When I started 30+ years ago, I was the only one in my intake that had a CS degree. I am the only one still programming - all of the others have management jobs on better pay.
