Well that proves it then
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ryanb31 wrote:
men throughout all of history have been proven wrong after time
Correct. And in the case of science, the theories that were wrong were scrapped. With religion, lack of evidence and observed tests does not result in the same.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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And you use a 2000+ year old collection of writings full of ridiculousness.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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Funny how you can admin that science has had wrong theories but yet you will defend them to the death now.
I don't defend anything that has either been proven wrong or has not been tested sufficiently enough to be considered valid. What I defend is the process. At one time science agreed with religion that the world was flat. When it was proven otherwise, science moved on and accepted the new knowledge, religion did not. The point here is that science is flexible to change it's conclusions based on significant testing. Science takes on the burden to prove it's claims, religion makes claims and then places the burden of proof on those who would disagree to prove it wrong. Religion has it all backwards on that one.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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How can you prove that something written several thousand years ago is true? Were you there? As for the your assertion that the dating is done by extrapolation based on wild assumptions you are so badly misinformed. C-14 is found in all living creatures, it decays at a fixed rate [half life of 5,730±40 years] and so by the level of C-14 in a sample you can tell how long ago it lived. C-14 is a very accurate technique and it is used with other methods to reduce error levels. Of course the older things are, the greater margin of error, but give the 400 millennia only a 75% accuracy and it could be anywhere between 100,000 and 700,000 years. Go and read a bit, maybe you'll understand that just because something isn't in the Bible it does not hold true that it is fake.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
So, you proved my point. Thank you. "Of course the older things are, the greater margin of error." It is extrapolation. You are ASSUMING the half life remains predictable. Like I said, you may actually be completely right. I am not arguing that. You claim it as proof and you cannot prove it. Saying that the half life is x and therefore y is 400,000 years old is just plain theory. It is ASSUMPTION. And you know what assumption makes you.
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If your god was all-knowing and all-powerful and such, then don't you think he could have come up with 1 perfect set of rules that would stand the test of time as opposed to changing the rules to coincide with man's discoveries and knowledge? I can respect the position of a Christian like Nagy who doesn't claim that absolute truth in a 2000 year old book, but uses his intellect to decide what is simply poppycock. What I cannot respect is willful ignorance which is what you are demonstrating here. The only foot you have to stand on is circular-reasoning where you believe what the book told you because the book told you it's right and you have to believe that because the book told you.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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I asked you a question, have the good manners to answer it. Do you believe in the Bible as the word of God handed down to man? If you do, which from you are saying I think may be the case, then how can you decide that one part is 'wrong' and the other is 'right'. The position you have taken is that the only truth is God. So stand up for yourself and state if you believe in EVERY LAST WORD of the bible? If you doubt any of it, then the reasoning you use to justify your earlier drivel is nullified. If you accept it all, then go kill the Denver Broncos; it's okay God told you to do it. :laugh:
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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I don't defend anything that has either been proven wrong or has not been tested sufficiently enough to be considered valid. What I defend is the process. At one time science agreed with religion that the world was flat. When it was proven otherwise, science moved on and accepted the new knowledge, religion did not. The point here is that science is flexible to change it's conclusions based on significant testing. Science takes on the burden to prove it's claims, religion makes claims and then places the burden of proof on those who would disagree to prove it wrong. Religion has it all backwards on that one.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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So, you proved my point. Thank you. "Of course the older things are, the greater margin of error." It is extrapolation. You are ASSUMING the half life remains predictable. Like I said, you may actually be completely right. I am not arguing that. You claim it as proof and you cannot prove it. Saying that the half life is x and therefore y is 400,000 years old is just plain theory. It is ASSUMPTION. And you know what assumption makes you.
I have proved only your absolute ignorance of the world. I am not a physicist, but I know enough that the way radioactive decay works means it will not speed up or slow down - in other words it is absolutely predictable. Remember this is science where the experiments are repeatable. So unless the laws of physics are constantly changing, my original point holds. To clarify, the 'Laws of Physics' are not the ones we have managed to work out so far and prove through experiment, but the fundamental principals that hold the universe together.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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I asked you a question, have the good manners to answer it. Do you believe in the Bible as the word of God handed down to man? If you do, which from you are saying I think may be the case, then how can you decide that one part is 'wrong' and the other is 'right'. The position you have taken is that the only truth is God. So stand up for yourself and state if you believe in EVERY LAST WORD of the bible? If you doubt any of it, then the reasoning you use to justify your earlier drivel is nullified. If you accept it all, then go kill the Denver Broncos; it's okay God told you to do it. :laugh:
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
God spoke with men called as prophets and they wrote exactly what he told them to. At that point, yes the writings were perfect and the EXACT word of God. However, for example, shortly after Christ died the rest of the apostles were also killed and the apostasy began. God's authority was no longer held by man on earth and there was no longer any on-going revelation between God and prophets which is why the Bible ends. Man then began to put its own interpretation on the writings and man translated, not inspired prophets, the Bible. King James had many, many men, not prophets, translate the Bible to the best of their knowledge. So, yes I believe in the Bible as far as it is translated correctly. But some of the plain and precious truths have been removed, even some of them were removed intentionally. For example, the King James version says the the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart after each of the plagues by Moses. That can't be true because it contradicts all of the other teaching of the Lord's. The Lord will soften hearts, never harden them. But you still have not answered my question. Do you believe the timeline in the Bible? I am not trying to argue religious facts about the Bible but merely do you accept the timeline it presents?
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I have proved only your absolute ignorance of the world. I am not a physicist, but I know enough that the way radioactive decay works means it will not speed up or slow down - in other words it is absolutely predictable. Remember this is science where the experiments are repeatable. So unless the laws of physics are constantly changing, my original point holds. To clarify, the 'Laws of Physics' are not the ones we have managed to work out so far and prove through experiment, but the fundamental principals that hold the universe together.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
You say you are a Christian? Do you believe Christ walked on water? Do you believe Peter walked on water? Do believe Christ fed 5,000 with a load of bread? Do you believe the Red Sea was parted so that they walked through on DRY ground? Do you believe Elijah called down fire from heaven to burn the offerings? Do you believe Moses turned a stick into a snake? What laws of physics did they use or is it just magic? You think we are so smart but I just gave you a long list of laws of physics that we do not understand. You can't possibly believe we know everything. So you can't prove radioactive decay holds true after 100,000 years or 1 million years. We have a few decades worth of studying it as proof. If you graphed the amount of time the earth has been around and then zoomed into an area that was only a few decades long, it would look extremely predictable but you do not have the whole picture. There is no way to prove it. You might be right, but you can't prove it.
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You say you are a Christian? Do you believe Christ walked on water? Do you believe Peter walked on water? Do believe Christ fed 5,000 with a load of bread? Do you believe the Red Sea was parted so that they walked through on DRY ground? Do you believe Elijah called down fire from heaven to burn the offerings? Do you believe Moses turned a stick into a snake? What laws of physics did they use or is it just magic? You think we are so smart but I just gave you a long list of laws of physics that we do not understand. You can't possibly believe we know everything. So you can't prove radioactive decay holds true after 100,000 years or 1 million years. We have a few decades worth of studying it as proof. If you graphed the amount of time the earth has been around and then zoomed into an area that was only a few decades long, it would look extremely predictable but you do not have the whole picture. There is no way to prove it. You might be right, but you can't prove it.
Trying to discuss anything with you is like herding cats, a futile and ultimately pointless exercise. Here's a little mind fuck for you, I believe what the Bible teaches me but not necessarily what it says. When you understand that thread, I'll discuss religion with you. Until then, go back to reading the Scriptures and maybe you'll learn something rather than just remember stuff.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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God spoke with men called as prophets and they wrote exactly what he told them to. At that point, yes the writings were perfect and the EXACT word of God. However, for example, shortly after Christ died the rest of the apostles were also killed and the apostasy began. God's authority was no longer held by man on earth and there was no longer any on-going revelation between God and prophets which is why the Bible ends. Man then began to put its own interpretation on the writings and man translated, not inspired prophets, the Bible. King James had many, many men, not prophets, translate the Bible to the best of their knowledge. So, yes I believe in the Bible as far as it is translated correctly. But some of the plain and precious truths have been removed, even some of them were removed intentionally. For example, the King James version says the the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart after each of the plagues by Moses. That can't be true because it contradicts all of the other teaching of the Lord's. The Lord will soften hearts, never harden them. But you still have not answered my question. Do you believe the timeline in the Bible? I am not trying to argue religious facts about the Bible but merely do you accept the timeline it presents?
ryanb31 wrote:
That can't be true because it contradicts all of the other teaching of the Lord's. The Lord will soften hearts, never harden them.
2nd Kings 21:12:
Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.
Oh yes, that's softening all right. I'm sure you can find a contradictory quote as that is what the Bible is full of. There is a n underlying theme, but the individual pieces are often hogwash.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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Trying to discuss anything with you is like herding cats, a futile and ultimately pointless exercise. Here's a little mind fuck for you, I believe what the Bible teaches me but not necessarily what it says. When you understand that thread, I'll discuss religion with you. Until then, go back to reading the Scriptures and maybe you'll learn something rather than just remember stuff.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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ryanb31 wrote:
That can't be true because it contradicts all of the other teaching of the Lord's. The Lord will soften hearts, never harden them.
2nd Kings 21:12:
Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.
Oh yes, that's softening all right. I'm sure you can find a contradictory quote as that is what the Bible is full of. There is a n underlying theme, but the individual pieces are often hogwash.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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But you are mistaking man-made religions for the Bible. Where does the Bible claim the earth is flat?
The other man-made religions and their holy books have the same claims of being written with the inspiration of a perfect god and claim to be absolute truth the same as the bible. So you tell me, what makes the claims of your book any more valid than the claims of the religious writings of these other man-made religions. You are the one making extraordinary claims. The burden is on you to prove your claims to be valid, not on others to prove that they are not. I could really care less what the bible says about the earth being flat, or anything else that it claims. It is that the book itself holds no credibility with me because it's claims are not and cannot be validated. I will not believe anything on faith alone because that is simply juvenile and foolish. If you can provide me solid proof that the bible is in fact the word of god then I will certainly accept the claims in the book. I would encourage you to do some truly objective research on the claims of the bible and why you believe what you believe. If you can be truly objective I think you will be surprised on how your thought processes will change. All that being said, I see no contradiction in it that the bible has some good concepts in it like taking care of the less fortunate and such. Those things are good, but my motivation in doing charity work or helping others in need is not based on my sucking up to my god for brownie points, it is done because it makes me feel good to make someone else feel good.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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"changing the rules to coincide with man's discoveries and knowledge?" Do you have an example? You sure have taken this personal and are acting like you know anything about me.
How about something that has basically happened in your short lifetime. Women being allowed to be preachers. In your local church, how often are small new things introduced. The religion is constantly evolving over time, just like everything else. Each generation makes some changes as to how things are done and thought about within the church. Do some serious research on what was believed by your own denomination 100 years ago versus what is believed today. Consider what was considered doctrine 100 years ago versus today. I think you will find that much has changed. Religions that do not evolve go extinct. If we go back a little further, you would do well to notice that the different fragmentations of the church.(i.e Luther and such) were all cases of the original version of the religion becoming outdated and in need of becoming current again. Perhaps you can read up on this. How_has_Christianity_changed_over_time[^] If you disagree with anything in that short summary then feel free to.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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But I am not the one calling names and acting childish. If you want to believe what you believe, go right ahead, but stop calling people who are different than you degrading names just because you cannot understand them.
Where have I called you names and where have I acted childish? Where have I been degrading? Please enlighten me with your exclusive wisdom.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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So how come you won't answer my question? Do you believe in the timeline of the Bible? ANSWER IT FOR ONCE. You are getting frustrated because your logic takes you in circles. That happens when you are wrong. Sorry, but true.
ryanb31 wrote:
You are getting frustrated because your logic takes you in circles.
I'm not going in circles, you are. What ever someone has said to contradict your opinion, your single answer has been they're wrong because it is not what you believe. Can you show me how dating techniques are flawed? No you can't because you have failed to understand how they work. By understanding the principles, you'll be able to see what we're ll talking to you about.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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ryanb31 wrote:
You ignored the whole point. We do not know all of the laws of physics.
You're answering off thread here. I know that we don't know everything, least of all the laws of physics. But I do know that there is a far better understanding now then there was during the [roughly] 3,000 years when the bible was written.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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The other man-made religions and their holy books have the same claims of being written with the inspiration of a perfect god and claim to be absolute truth the same as the bible. So you tell me, what makes the claims of your book any more valid than the claims of the religious writings of these other man-made religions. You are the one making extraordinary claims. The burden is on you to prove your claims to be valid, not on others to prove that they are not. I could really care less what the bible says about the earth being flat, or anything else that it claims. It is that the book itself holds no credibility with me because it's claims are not and cannot be validated. I will not believe anything on faith alone because that is simply juvenile and foolish. If you can provide me solid proof that the bible is in fact the word of god then I will certainly accept the claims in the book. I would encourage you to do some truly objective research on the claims of the bible and why you believe what you believe. If you can be truly objective I think you will be surprised on how your thought processes will change. All that being said, I see no contradiction in it that the bible has some good concepts in it like taking care of the less fortunate and such. Those things are good, but my motivation in doing charity work or helping others in need is not based on my sucking up to my god for brownie points, it is done because it makes me feel good to make someone else feel good.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
"I will not believe anything on faith alone." You contradict yourself. Faith is believing in something you cannot see. You believe some guy in a white coat who told you that something happened 400,000 years ago. That is much more far stretched than believing in the Bible.