Random numbers (emphasis on seeding the number)
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A thought came to me today about random seed generation. I googlied a bit but found nothing (using image data)...still could be there. You have a series of images. you count the pixels and use that as your random seed. Delete the image. The images are constantly being replenished by new images of all shapes and sizes and formats from the internet or scanned in or whatever. I would "think", that if the images were gathered...at random...with no care at all, the seed value would be random and not predictable. I am not a crypto guru so you can laugh all you want. :)
Just along for the ride. "the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011)Slacker007 wrote:
I would "think", that if the images were gathered...at random
so you've built a random number generator using another random number generator ? if not, defeating your random number generator would be the simple matter of learning your image selection algorithm and processing those images first. i could generate your numbers by simply reading the images you read. or, even better, i could control your numbers by manipulating the images you'll read.
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The capacity is limited to only three numbers (2,3 and 6). How's that random? ;P
Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. [Yogi Berra] posting about Crystal Reports here is like discussing gay marriage on a catholic church’s website.[Nishant Sivakumar]
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Slacker007 wrote:
I would "think", that if the images were gathered...at random
so you've built a random number generator using another random number generator ? if not, defeating your random number generator would be the simple matter of learning your image selection algorithm and processing those images first. i could generate your numbers by simply reading the images you read. or, even better, i could control your numbers by manipulating the images you'll read.
Chris Losinger wrote:
so you've built a random number generator using another random number generator ?
no. and image dump forum is a perfect example of random images, they are completely random, automatically by their nature.
Just along for the ride. "the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011) -
Slacker007 wrote:
I would "think", that if the images were gathered...at random
so you've built a random number generator using another random number generator ? if not, defeating your random number generator would be the simple matter of learning your image selection algorithm and processing those images first. i could generate your numbers by simply reading the images you read. or, even better, i could control your numbers by manipulating the images you'll read.
Except you wouldn't need images as quickly as numbers... So the "random number generator" for the images could be six interns in a dark basement surfing the web... Uh, just don't show your boss which images are being scanned...
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Chris Losinger wrote:
so you've built a random number generator using another random number generator ?
no. and image dump forum is a perfect example of random images, they are completely random, automatically by their nature.
Just along for the ride. "the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011)Slacker007 wrote:
they are completely random, automatically by their nature.
then i just need to read the same image stream you do, before you do it, and i can predict your number stream. or, i can take over that image stream and feed it images that will control your number stream. (for some reason, i'm assuming you want cryptographically-secure random numbers)
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Except you wouldn't need images as quickly as numbers... So the "random number generator" for the images could be six interns in a dark basement surfing the web... Uh, just don't show your boss which images are being scanned...
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Ian Shlasko wrote:
six interns in a dark basement surfing the web
people are never random. those interns would show patterns, preferences. even better, they could be replaced by people who would choose specific images.
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A thought came to me today about random seed generation. I googlied a bit but found nothing (using image data)...still could be there. You have a series of images. you count the pixels and use that as your random seed. Delete the image. The images are constantly being replenished by new images of all shapes and sizes and formats from the internet or scanned in or whatever. I would "think", that if the images were gathered...at random...with no care at all, the seed value would be random and not predictable. I am not a crypto guru so you can laugh all you want. :)
Just along for the ride. "the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011)Oh boys, that seems a bad idea like only seasoned VBers could come up with. There are a couple of very popular image sizes, e.g. built in in pocket camera's. For one, the size often is a multiple of 100, why would you restrict your RNG seed values to that? :doh:
Luc Pattyn [My Articles] Nil Volentibus Arduum
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Oh boys, that seems a bad idea like only seasoned VBers could come up with. There are a couple of very popular image sizes, e.g. built in in pocket camera's. For one, the size often is a multiple of 100, why would you restrict your RNG seed values to that? :doh:
Luc Pattyn [My Articles] Nil Volentibus Arduum
Luc Pattyn wrote:
that seems a bad idea like only seasoned VBers could come up with.
Luc, are you saying that I am a seasoned VBer? :-O :-\
Luc Pattyn wrote:
There are a couple of very popular image sizes, e.g. built in in pocket camera's. For one, the size often is a multiple of 100, why would you restrict your RNG seed values to that?
yea. true. AspDotNetDev made a good point too. I am not a great computer scientist after all. :hangs_head_in_shame:
Just along for the ride. "the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011) -
Ian Shlasko wrote:
six interns in a dark basement surfing the web
people are never random. those interns would show patterns, preferences. even better, they could be replaced by people who would choose specific images.
Then put privacy screens between them, avert your eyes, and... uh... make sure the algorithm can capture video frames too :) Oh, and hash in the exact time the image was downloaded, and have each of the computers be slightly out of sync. I'd like to see someone try to duplicate THAT! :)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
A thought came to me today about random seed generation. I googlied a bit but found nothing (using image data)...still could be there. You have a series of images. you count the pixels and use that as your random seed. Delete the image. The images are constantly being replenished by new images of all shapes and sizes and formats from the internet or scanned in or whatever. I would "think", that if the images were gathered...at random...with no care at all, the seed value would be random and not predictable. I am not a crypto guru so you can laugh all you want. :)
Just along for the ride. "the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011)I suspect this has been posted before (in fact I'm sure it has) but it is relevant: Random Number[^]
Ideological Purity is no substitute for being able to stick your thumb down a pipe to stop the water
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Slacker007 wrote:
they are completely random, automatically by their nature.
then i just need to read the same image stream you do, before you do it, and i can predict your number stream. or, i can take over that image stream and feed it images that will control your number stream. (for some reason, i'm assuming you want cryptographically-secure random numbers)
Chris Losinger wrote:
then i just need to read the same image stream you do, before you do it, and i can predict your number stream.
or, i can take over that image stream and feed it images that will control your number stream.but the algorithm...you don't know. The image dump is constantly being refreshed and manipulated by members, every second. it would be impossible for you to do this...in this scenario...I would think. you could feed images all day and night, I'm going to pick the next image (which is a random image) and carry on the process. [edit] the image I grab is the next one in the cue, whether it is your image or 500K others.
Just along for the ride. "the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011) -
I suspect this has been posted before (in fact I'm sure it has) but it is relevant: Random Number[^]
Ideological Purity is no substitute for being able to stick your thumb down a pipe to stop the water
:)
Just along for the ride. "the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011) -
Ian Shlasko wrote:
six interns in a dark basement surfing the web
people are never random. those interns would show patterns, preferences. even better, they could be replaced by people who would choose specific images.
Chris Losinger wrote:
people are never random. those interns would show patterns, preferences. even better, they could be replaced by people who would choose specific images.
very true. people, by nature, are predictable.
Just along for the ride. "the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011) -
I suspect this has been posted before (in fact I'm sure it has) but it is relevant: Random Number[^]
Ideological Purity is no substitute for being able to stick your thumb down a pipe to stop the water
OriginalGriff wrote:
I suspect this has been posted before (in fact I'm sure it has) but it is relevant
heheh I love how the entire CP lounge is now walking on eggshells so as not to get crucified for a repost... :laugh:
"... having only that moment finished a vigorous game of Wiff-Waff and eaten a tartiflet." - Henry Minute "...who gives a tinker's cuss?" - Dalek Dave "Let's face it, after Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF!" - gavindon It's plain that they do not yet know what true fear really is. - JSOP 2011
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Chris Losinger wrote:
then i just need to read the same image stream you do, before you do it, and i can predict your number stream.
or, i can take over that image stream and feed it images that will control your number stream.but the algorithm...you don't know. The image dump is constantly being refreshed and manipulated by members, every second. it would be impossible for you to do this...in this scenario...I would think. you could feed images all day and night, I'm going to pick the next image (which is a random image) and carry on the process. [edit] the image I grab is the next one in the cue, whether it is your image or 500K others.
Just along for the ride. "the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011)Slacker007 wrote:
but the algorithm...you don't know.
as you've described, it's: 1. get an image from a stream. 2. use its dimensions as the seed to a random number generator. so i need to find: 1. your stream (sniff your IP traffic) 2. which random number generator you're using. (try all the common random number generators)
Slacker007 wrote:
the image I grab is the next one in the cue, whether it is your image or 500K others.
if i want control bad enough, all of them will be my images. and you won't know it. but, your scheme already depends on you having a random number generator. so, if you don't trust rand(time()), get a better RNG. that's much easier than creating a machine to generate random seeds.
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Slacker007 wrote:
but the algorithm...you don't know.
as you've described, it's: 1. get an image from a stream. 2. use its dimensions as the seed to a random number generator. so i need to find: 1. your stream (sniff your IP traffic) 2. which random number generator you're using. (try all the common random number generators)
Slacker007 wrote:
the image I grab is the next one in the cue, whether it is your image or 500K others.
if i want control bad enough, all of them will be my images. and you won't know it. but, your scheme already depends on you having a random number generator. so, if you don't trust rand(time()), get a better RNG. that's much easier than creating a machine to generate random seeds.
all great points but how would you know what my random number is, this second? You are assuming that you have control over everything I see and do. Have you ever seen an image dump, such as 4chan? How would you control that?
Just along for the ride. "the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011) -
A thought came to me today about random seed generation. I googlied a bit but found nothing (using image data)...still could be there. You have a series of images. you count the pixels and use that as your random seed. Delete the image. The images are constantly being replenished by new images of all shapes and sizes and formats from the internet or scanned in or whatever. I would "think", that if the images were gathered...at random...with no care at all, the seed value would be random and not predictable. I am not a crypto guru so you can laugh all you want. :)
Just along for the ride. "the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011)It's not to far off. Moren random generators used for cryptography accumulate "randomness" from a variety of sources, and are rather resilent against injection of non-random data. For diving into a confusingly fascinating read, see maybe start here[^].
FILETIME to time_t
| FoldWithUs! | sighist | WhoIncludes - Analyzing C++ include file hierarchy -
I suspect this has been posted before (in fact I'm sure it has) but it is relevant: Random Number[^]
Ideological Purity is no substitute for being able to stick your thumb down a pipe to stop the water
Twice a day - it's getting out of hand.
FILETIME to time_t
| FoldWithUs! | sighist | WhoIncludes - Analyzing C++ include file hierarchy -
all great points but how would you know what my random number is, this second? You are assuming that you have control over everything I see and do. Have you ever seen an image dump, such as 4chan? How would you control that?
Just along for the ride. "the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011)Slacker007 wrote:
all great points but how would you know what my random number is, this second?
maybe i can't. but if there's no way i can know it, you might not need a super-complex cryptographically-secure RNG. no need to protect yourself from something that's impossible, after all. so, i've been assuming i can know it.
Slacker007 wrote:
You are assuming that you have control over everything I see and do. Have you ever seen an image dump, such as 4chan?
sure. but what if i redirect your IP traffic to my own servers when you pull your images ?
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Slacker007 wrote:
all great points but how would you know what my random number is, this second?
maybe i can't. but if there's no way i can know it, you might not need a super-complex cryptographically-secure RNG. no need to protect yourself from something that's impossible, after all. so, i've been assuming i can know it.
Slacker007 wrote:
You are assuming that you have control over everything I see and do. Have you ever seen an image dump, such as 4chan?
sure. but what if i redirect your IP traffic to my own servers when you pull your images ?
Chris Losinger wrote:
but what if i redirect your HTTP requests to my own servers when you pull your images ?
I'm not a web dev but I'm sure there would be a tell that I could right code for to handle this. The second you redirect, my system goes dark and locks up. Just a thought.
Just along for the ride. "the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011)
