The metro UI
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Nagy Vilmos wrote:
and still drives the way graphical OS's should behave
:laugh:
My Messianic Jewish blog: Kineti L'Tziyon My software blog: Debugger.Break() Judah Himango
Go find a better metaphor for the desktop. You have a single place where you can easily find your current documents and are able to compare different documents, irrespective of format, by sight. Just because it's new doesn't mean it is better. One of the biggest fuck-ups we as developers make is ignoring the real-world and trying to impose constraints on the users. Floating windows allows the user to see as much, or as little, of each application as they chose. The Metro monstrosity takes that away. In my well informed opinion, it is a step backwards, DOS with graphics, rather than forward.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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In my opinion, it's more that once you get used to a UI you should be able to use that UI indefinitely and not be forced to "upgrade" to the latest and greatest against your will.
PIEBALDconsult wrote:
once you get used to a UI you should be able to use that UI indefinitely
I think yours is the honest answer here: people don't like change. It's not that X sucks. It's that people don't like change, particularly those who have been in this industry for a long time.
PIEBALDconsult wrote:
[I do not want to be] forced to "upgrade" to the latest and greatest against my will.
Agreed. Now if only Microsoft would stop coming to our houses and forcing us to upgrade at gun point! ;) Look, technology evolves. That's the industry we've chosen. You can stick with old tech if you like -- say, Windows 95 -- and be 'happy.' You just have to understand that the world won't stop for you. Apps, frameworks, hardware will all evolve, and you'll be left with your old tech. That's your tradeoff. No one's making you upgrade to Windows 8. (Or Windows 7, Vista, XP, ME, 98SE, 98, or Mac for that matter.) Tech evolves. We evolve with it. Sucks we have to learn new stuff every year. But, then again, maybe learning keeps the mind sharp and our skillset relevant and our paychecks coming. So maybe it's not so bad.
My Messianic Jewish blog: Kineti L'Tziyon My software blog: Debugger.Break() Judah Himango
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Chris Maunder wrote:
Am I the only one who cringes when he sees the metro UI being used outside of a phone?
Amen. "Metro" is the new word for "retarded." Marc
Apparently it's the new Shiny as well.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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Am I the only one who cringes when he sees the metro UI being used outside of a phone? Actually - I cringe when I see it on a phone too.
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
Same here.
"One man's wage rise is another man's price increase." - Harold Wilson
"Fireproof doesn't mean the fire will never come. It means when the fire comes that you will be able to withstand it." - Michael Simmons
"Show me a community that obeys the Ten Commandments and I'll show you a less crowded prison system." - Anonymous
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Am I the only one who cringes when he sees the metro UI being used outside of a phone? Actually - I cringe when I see it on a phone too.
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
I've been using it on my phone for over a year now and absolutely love it. I've been running the Windows 8 preview off and on for a while now and like it on the PC too, though I know it would be better on a touchscreen PC. I'm a serious fan of the Metro UI.
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Like most tech, there are good and downright wretched parts to it. Does it make sense on a phone? Absolutely. Big targets for touchscreen use. Normal behavior you expect for mobile apps. Does it make sense on a tablet? Yep, though there are flaws if they really intend you to use the tablet for both tablet and PC use cases. The desktop mode on a tablet is fairly useless. Normal Windows UI elements are just not designed or intended for our fat fingers. They need to have versions of Explorer, Task Manager, and other classic desktop apps that are designed for Metro. I'm sick of trying to touch/click on a Listview entry in Task Manager so I can close an app Microsoft is too shortsighted to let me close with a built-in Close/Quit button. To their credit, they are doing a good job with trying to create a consistent UI "language" or set of idioms you use to get around. In the same way that we're used to right-clicks and double-clicks, you swipe the left side to tab between apps, you swipe the right to get to the global settings and charms, and you swipe the top or bottom to get to app-specific features. There are also the usual scrolling and pinch-to-zoom gestures. That all seems to work pretty smoothly. Does it make sense on a console (XBox 360)? In theory maybe, but in practice it sucks unless you have a Kinect. With the new dashboard, I have this big wall of tiles that give me no info and take more controller movements to navigate. If you have a Kinect, I'm guessing it works a lot better. If you only use a controller, it's like navigating the on-screen keyboard all the time. In other words, a clunky nightmare. It feels like it takes an order of magnitude more controller inputs to get around now. Does it make sense on a desktop? Not really, at least for what most of us do on a desktop or laptop. Too many things on a desktop require precision navigation and action. I'm not doing word-processing or document creation or CAD drawing on a touch-interface like a phone or tablet. The granularity of the user's input is not small enough to match the granularity required by the activity. If I'm editing a word in a document and my finger or thumb covers the entire word, how am I supposed to get the cursor where I want it to be? I would need a screen the size of a table so I could get my finger or hand at the exact spot I want. Ok, so if I'm not needing tablet-style "casual" apps or games on my desktop, what does Metro give me? Not much I think. Navigation around the Metro UI with a mouse and keyb
Kythen wrote:
Does it make sense on a console (XBox 360) ... it takes an order of magnitude more controller inputs to get around now.
Indeed. On the other hand, I bought an XBox Media Remote a few weeks back (at the local Microsoft Store, the price was even pretty good) -- which makes controlling DVDs and streamed video somewhat less irksome.
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Go find a better metaphor for the desktop. You have a single place where you can easily find your current documents and are able to compare different documents, irrespective of format, by sight. Just because it's new doesn't mean it is better. One of the biggest fuck-ups we as developers make is ignoring the real-world and trying to impose constraints on the users. Floating windows allows the user to see as much, or as little, of each application as they chose. The Metro monstrosity takes that away. In my well informed opinion, it is a step backwards, DOS with graphics, rather than forward.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Nagy Vilmos wrote:
You have a single place where you can easily find your current documents
Tell that to any non-tech user. Sure, we have no problems navigating a 50-level deep file system. "See colon slash users slash Judah slash documents slash foo dot doc ex" sounds fine to me. But tell that to your parents. Or your children. The file system is a big black hole for them. Folders are a great way of burying data, and a terrible way of organizing it. Look at the average user's desktop -- they have boatloads of crap on it. Why? Because they don't understand how to use the file system. And most people don't care to know. Heck, the iPad has gone farther still -- no access to the file system -- and has proven that users don't really need to be aware of the file system at all. That thing's been a huge commercial success precisely because it rid itself of antiquated, complex concepts brought over from the glory days of the PC's inception.
Nagy Vilmos wrote:
Floating windows allows the user to see as much, or as little, of each application as they chose. The Metro monstrosity takes that away
Comparing documents just by sight. Oh, you mean opening both of them and looking at them? You can do that on Metro. (Yes, you can have more than one app opened at a time on Metro. Not sure how people missed the docking/splitter capabilities from BUILD conference.)
My Messianic Jewish blog: Kineti L'Tziyon My software blog: Debugger.Break() Judah Himango
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And this is why there is a desktop shell as well. All along, MS have been saying use the appropriate interface for the appropriate platform. They haven't touted Metro as the new desktop.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
Exactly. The Live Tile interface is the new Start menu. Metro apps for PC aren't going to replace desktop apps. They'll work beside them.
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Sorry Pete, I don't agree. Metro works well on the small screen of the tablet/phone platform but blows harder than a Julian Clary / Graham Norton tag team taking on the Village People. It is not the UI for the desktop, full stop end of fucking story.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
The Live Tile style start screen is great, in my opinion. And as has already been said, Metro apps aren't going to replace desktops entirely. Plus, keep in mind how many people out there "use" one app at a time. Obviously that's not how we developers work, but for many people, they may start some music and then push their music player to the background while they browse the web or read email. For them, a full-screen app model works well.
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It's definitely a bad fit for desktops. As for phones and tablets, I don't know, haven't tried. But you don't have a mouse to work with there so it may make more sense (but that's easy - it makes absolutely zero sense on a desktop).
Check out the Building Windows 8 blog (I don't have the link handy and am too lazy to Bing/Google it) where they talk about the reasons for the moves they've made. Then use it for a while. It will be awesome on a touchscreen PC and is very nice on a regular PC, though the developer preview is pretty sparse. Plus, unless you're using Metro apps, you're going to spend most of your time in the desktop anyway, only seeing the Live Tiles when you hit the Start button.
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Sorry Pete, I don't agree. Metro works well on the small screen of the tablet/phone platform but blows harder than a Julian Clary / Graham Norton tag team taking on the Village People. It is not the UI for the desktop, full stop end of fucking story.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Then don't upgrade. Nobody is going to hold a gun against your head and force you to.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
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It is sleek for tablet use, IMO. As for Desktop, people can say it has no place but from what I have seen their new tablets are more powerful than most desktops out there. With that said wouldn't you use it for both functionalities, being viewing and entering content? I doubt an iPad will ever be commonly 'docked' but the new windows tablets have both desktop and metro mode making them WAYYYY MORE functional than todays desktops or tablets. I think microsoft has an interesting angle and from what I have seen it might just work. If you gripe about the look then why not restyle it? They offer 'guidelines' but they are not 'laws'. I think it was a good idea to offer the guidelines as well. It gives devs some starting ground on new territory. Honestly, it would likely have been total chaos otherwise. MS has never been known for making thigns pretty though. Just for making them highly functional and dynamic. They leave the perttiness to the 3rd parties.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
And as I've said in other comments, unless you're using Metro apps, the only time you'll see anything different is when you hit the Start button, which brings up the Start screen (complete with Live Tiles) instead of the Start menu. And the Start screen was designed to improve usability over the Start menu, according to the Building Windows 8 blog.
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Chris Maunder wrote:
Am I the only one who cringes when he sees the metro UI being used outside of a phone? Actually - I cringe when I see it on a phone too.
Don't we hear that from developers every time MS makes a new/updated GUI? I actually like metro on a phone, my HTC Titan is the best phone I have ever had, and I've also used Android (hate it) and iPhone (great phone actually), but WP7 beats them all.
- Anders
Amen. :)
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I've been using it on my phone for over a year now and absolutely love it. I've been running the Windows 8 preview off and on for a while now and like it on the PC too, though I know it would be better on a touchscreen PC. I'm a serious fan of the Metro UI.
I was lucky enough to be given a touch screen with Win 8 on it, and can confirm it's pretty darned good once you get used to it. My only gripe is having the Shutdown option on something labelled Settings - that doesn't sit too well. Apart from that, excellent.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
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Like most tech, there are good and downright wretched parts to it. Does it make sense on a phone? Absolutely. Big targets for touchscreen use. Normal behavior you expect for mobile apps. Does it make sense on a tablet? Yep, though there are flaws if they really intend you to use the tablet for both tablet and PC use cases. The desktop mode on a tablet is fairly useless. Normal Windows UI elements are just not designed or intended for our fat fingers. They need to have versions of Explorer, Task Manager, and other classic desktop apps that are designed for Metro. I'm sick of trying to touch/click on a Listview entry in Task Manager so I can close an app Microsoft is too shortsighted to let me close with a built-in Close/Quit button. To their credit, they are doing a good job with trying to create a consistent UI "language" or set of idioms you use to get around. In the same way that we're used to right-clicks and double-clicks, you swipe the left side to tab between apps, you swipe the right to get to the global settings and charms, and you swipe the top or bottom to get to app-specific features. There are also the usual scrolling and pinch-to-zoom gestures. That all seems to work pretty smoothly. Does it make sense on a console (XBox 360)? In theory maybe, but in practice it sucks unless you have a Kinect. With the new dashboard, I have this big wall of tiles that give me no info and take more controller movements to navigate. If you have a Kinect, I'm guessing it works a lot better. If you only use a controller, it's like navigating the on-screen keyboard all the time. In other words, a clunky nightmare. It feels like it takes an order of magnitude more controller inputs to get around now. Does it make sense on a desktop? Not really, at least for what most of us do on a desktop or laptop. Too many things on a desktop require precision navigation and action. I'm not doing word-processing or document creation or CAD drawing on a touch-interface like a phone or tablet. The granularity of the user's input is not small enough to match the granularity required by the activity. If I'm editing a word in a document and my finger or thumb covers the entire word, how am I supposed to get the cursor where I want it to be? I would need a screen the size of a table so I could get my finger or hand at the exact spot I want. Ok, so if I'm not needing tablet-style "casual" apps or games on my desktop, what does Metro give me? Not much I think. Navigation around the Metro UI with a mouse and keyb
Kythen wrote:
If I'm editing a word in a document and my finger or thumb covers the entire word, how am I supposed to get the cursor where I want it to be? I would need a screen the size of a table so I could get my finger or hand at the exact spot I want.
Well, if it winds up working like Windows Phone, you would touch and hold until the I-beam cursor appears above the touch point and then drag to where you want it and release when you get there. Not that much different from using a mouse where you move the I-beam cursor to where you want it and click when you get there.
Kythen wrote:
Navigation around the Metro UI with a mouse and keyboard is rough.
A little, but I believe that it will improve. I've been running the developer preview on a laptop (with no external mouse) and have been able to get around fine.
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I was lucky enough to be given a touch screen with Win 8 on it, and can confirm it's pretty darned good once you get used to it. My only gripe is having the Shutdown option on something labelled Settings - that doesn't sit too well. Apart from that, excellent.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I was lucky enough to be given a touch screen with Win 8 on it
Sweet! Lucky dog.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
My only gripe is having the Shutdown option on something labelled Settings
I agree. The first couple of times I went looking for it, I think I wound up logging out and shutting down from the resulting login screen. I hope that they improve that UI aspect as they move along.
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Chris Maunder wrote:
Am I the only one who cringes when he sees the metro UI being used outside of a phone?
Amen. "Metro" is the new word for "retarded." Marc
Haha, I knew you would write that Marc :P
- Anders
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The Live Tile style start screen is great, in my opinion. And as has already been said, Metro apps aren't going to replace desktops entirely. Plus, keep in mind how many people out there "use" one app at a time. Obviously that's not how we developers work, but for many people, they may start some music and then push their music player to the background while they browse the web or read email. For them, a full-screen app model works well.
Marc A. Brown wrote:
Plus, keep in mind how many people out there "use" one app at a time
Fewer and fewer rather than more and more, I'd say. Facebook, email, uTube all at once is common amongst the kiddiewinks today. And that's in class, so they probably also have Excel or something open.
MVVM# - See how I did MVVM my way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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Then don't upgrade. Nobody is going to hold a gun against your head and force you to.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
In the long run they will when W8 is all you can get.
MVVM# - See how I did MVVM my way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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PIEBALDconsult wrote:
once you get used to a UI you should be able to use that UI indefinitely
I think yours is the honest answer here: people don't like change. It's not that X sucks. It's that people don't like change, particularly those who have been in this industry for a long time.
PIEBALDconsult wrote:
[I do not want to be] forced to "upgrade" to the latest and greatest against my will.
Agreed. Now if only Microsoft would stop coming to our houses and forcing us to upgrade at gun point! ;) Look, technology evolves. That's the industry we've chosen. You can stick with old tech if you like -- say, Windows 95 -- and be 'happy.' You just have to understand that the world won't stop for you. Apps, frameworks, hardware will all evolve, and you'll be left with your old tech. That's your tradeoff. No one's making you upgrade to Windows 8. (Or Windows 7, Vista, XP, ME, 98SE, 98, or Mac for that matter.) Tech evolves. We evolve with it. Sucks we have to learn new stuff every year. But, then again, maybe learning keeps the mind sharp and our skillset relevant and our paychecks coming. So maybe it's not so bad.
My Messianic Jewish blog: Kineti L'Tziyon My software blog: Debugger.Break() Judah Himango
So I can make my XBox and Netflix go back to the way they were last week? Cool. How?