Killing My Career: Not Buying the HTML 5/Java Hype
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I must be getting old. I just refuse to buy the HTML 5/Java Hype. I hate the whole web programming model from start to finish, which doesn't help. Having one langauge for server side code and another for client side code, along with a mass of libraries, CSS, and a dozen other considerations makes my head hurt. It would be fair to call me lazy or unwilling to learn at that point - I won't hate you for that. The thing is, it goes beyond just the ridiculous complexity. The fact is that after 15 years of browser wars the browsers are no closer to behaving the same than they were in 1995. Can you blame them? There is no finalized standard to work against and they trip over themselves in the never ending one-up-manship game. But it gets worse in that the browser isn't the only consideration. Now you've got different hardware that could include anything from a 3" screen up to a 40" screen and beyond. The primary promise of HTML 5/Java is that of program once, run anywhere. I don't see that as deliverable for anything beyond a static web page - at least not without a ridiculous amount of effort and complexity. This is less a failing of the technology and more the result of the various companies refusing to work together to make a developer's life easier. If I had to guess, I'd say in 2020 we'll have just as fractured of a model as we have right now. I think people who write for a specific screen size/hardware/nitch are going to kick the pOOpie out of those who try to cover all bases with a one size fits all solution. That and hopefully most businesses will wake up and realize that for most applications most form factors aren't needed. Just because you can view finanical reports on your iPhone doesn't mean you should. It's okay to get all fanboi over it if you want. I'm just not seeing it. Looks like a great deal of smoke and mirrors to me.
While I agree with you in general, I do feel it's only fair to point out that it's JavaScript, not Java.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
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I must be getting old. I just refuse to buy the HTML 5/Java Hype. I hate the whole web programming model from start to finish, which doesn't help. Having one langauge for server side code and another for client side code, along with a mass of libraries, CSS, and a dozen other considerations makes my head hurt. It would be fair to call me lazy or unwilling to learn at that point - I won't hate you for that. The thing is, it goes beyond just the ridiculous complexity. The fact is that after 15 years of browser wars the browsers are no closer to behaving the same than they were in 1995. Can you blame them? There is no finalized standard to work against and they trip over themselves in the never ending one-up-manship game. But it gets worse in that the browser isn't the only consideration. Now you've got different hardware that could include anything from a 3" screen up to a 40" screen and beyond. The primary promise of HTML 5/Java is that of program once, run anywhere. I don't see that as deliverable for anything beyond a static web page - at least not without a ridiculous amount of effort and complexity. This is less a failing of the technology and more the result of the various companies refusing to work together to make a developer's life easier. If I had to guess, I'd say in 2020 we'll have just as fractured of a model as we have right now. I think people who write for a specific screen size/hardware/nitch are going to kick the pOOpie out of those who try to cover all bases with a one size fits all solution. That and hopefully most businesses will wake up and realize that for most applications most form factors aren't needed. Just because you can view finanical reports on your iPhone doesn't mean you should. It's okay to get all fanboi over it if you want. I'm just not seeing it. Looks like a great deal of smoke and mirrors to me.
You are not alone in your evaluation.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
I must be getting old. I just refuse to buy the HTML 5/Java Hype. I hate the whole web programming model from start to finish, which doesn't help. Having one langauge for server side code and another for client side code, along with a mass of libraries, CSS, and a dozen other considerations makes my head hurt. It would be fair to call me lazy or unwilling to learn at that point - I won't hate you for that. The thing is, it goes beyond just the ridiculous complexity. The fact is that after 15 years of browser wars the browsers are no closer to behaving the same than they were in 1995. Can you blame them? There is no finalized standard to work against and they trip over themselves in the never ending one-up-manship game. But it gets worse in that the browser isn't the only consideration. Now you've got different hardware that could include anything from a 3" screen up to a 40" screen and beyond. The primary promise of HTML 5/Java is that of program once, run anywhere. I don't see that as deliverable for anything beyond a static web page - at least not without a ridiculous amount of effort and complexity. This is less a failing of the technology and more the result of the various companies refusing to work together to make a developer's life easier. If I had to guess, I'd say in 2020 we'll have just as fractured of a model as we have right now. I think people who write for a specific screen size/hardware/nitch are going to kick the pOOpie out of those who try to cover all bases with a one size fits all solution. That and hopefully most businesses will wake up and realize that for most applications most form factors aren't needed. Just because you can view finanical reports on your iPhone doesn't mean you should. It's okay to get all fanboi over it if you want. I'm just not seeing it. Looks like a great deal of smoke and mirrors to me.
MehGerbil wrote:
I just refuse to buy the HTML 5/Java Hype.
JavaScript, not Java. HTML5/JavaScript is what a lot of people think will define the future of the web. :)
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com You've gotta read this : Using lambdas - C++ vs. C# vs. C++/CX vs. C++/CLI
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I must be getting old. I just refuse to buy the HTML 5/Java Hype. I hate the whole web programming model from start to finish, which doesn't help. Having one langauge for server side code and another for client side code, along with a mass of libraries, CSS, and a dozen other considerations makes my head hurt. It would be fair to call me lazy or unwilling to learn at that point - I won't hate you for that. The thing is, it goes beyond just the ridiculous complexity. The fact is that after 15 years of browser wars the browsers are no closer to behaving the same than they were in 1995. Can you blame them? There is no finalized standard to work against and they trip over themselves in the never ending one-up-manship game. But it gets worse in that the browser isn't the only consideration. Now you've got different hardware that could include anything from a 3" screen up to a 40" screen and beyond. The primary promise of HTML 5/Java is that of program once, run anywhere. I don't see that as deliverable for anything beyond a static web page - at least not without a ridiculous amount of effort and complexity. This is less a failing of the technology and more the result of the various companies refusing to work together to make a developer's life easier. If I had to guess, I'd say in 2020 we'll have just as fractured of a model as we have right now. I think people who write for a specific screen size/hardware/nitch are going to kick the pOOpie out of those who try to cover all bases with a one size fits all solution. That and hopefully most businesses will wake up and realize that for most applications most form factors aren't needed. Just because you can view finanical reports on your iPhone doesn't mean you should. It's okay to get all fanboi over it if you want. I'm just not seeing it. Looks like a great deal of smoke and mirrors to me.
Refer here http://www.codeproject.com/Messages/4103278/What-is-the-next-skill-to-learn.aspx[^] In any case it is fun to learn... However thinking that all Dev days and Tech Eds and what not down the road will deal with the buzz onluy makes me X|
Alberto Bar-Noy --------------- “The city’s central computer told you? R2D2, you know better than to trust a strange computer!” (C3PO)
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I must be getting old. I just refuse to buy the HTML 5/Java Hype. I hate the whole web programming model from start to finish, which doesn't help. Having one langauge for server side code and another for client side code, along with a mass of libraries, CSS, and a dozen other considerations makes my head hurt. It would be fair to call me lazy or unwilling to learn at that point - I won't hate you for that. The thing is, it goes beyond just the ridiculous complexity. The fact is that after 15 years of browser wars the browsers are no closer to behaving the same than they were in 1995. Can you blame them? There is no finalized standard to work against and they trip over themselves in the never ending one-up-manship game. But it gets worse in that the browser isn't the only consideration. Now you've got different hardware that could include anything from a 3" screen up to a 40" screen and beyond. The primary promise of HTML 5/Java is that of program once, run anywhere. I don't see that as deliverable for anything beyond a static web page - at least not without a ridiculous amount of effort and complexity. This is less a failing of the technology and more the result of the various companies refusing to work together to make a developer's life easier. If I had to guess, I'd say in 2020 we'll have just as fractured of a model as we have right now. I think people who write for a specific screen size/hardware/nitch are going to kick the pOOpie out of those who try to cover all bases with a one size fits all solution. That and hopefully most businesses will wake up and realize that for most applications most form factors aren't needed. Just because you can view finanical reports on your iPhone doesn't mean you should. It's okay to get all fanboi over it if you want. I'm just not seeing it. Looks like a great deal of smoke and mirrors to me.
MehGerbil wrote:
I hate the whole web programming model from start to finish
Me too. Just ignore it and it'll go away.
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While I agree with you in general, I do feel it's only fair to point out that it's JavaScript, not Java.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
-
I must be getting old. I just refuse to buy the HTML 5/Java Hype. I hate the whole web programming model from start to finish, which doesn't help. Having one langauge for server side code and another for client side code, along with a mass of libraries, CSS, and a dozen other considerations makes my head hurt. It would be fair to call me lazy or unwilling to learn at that point - I won't hate you for that. The thing is, it goes beyond just the ridiculous complexity. The fact is that after 15 years of browser wars the browsers are no closer to behaving the same than they were in 1995. Can you blame them? There is no finalized standard to work against and they trip over themselves in the never ending one-up-manship game. But it gets worse in that the browser isn't the only consideration. Now you've got different hardware that could include anything from a 3" screen up to a 40" screen and beyond. The primary promise of HTML 5/Java is that of program once, run anywhere. I don't see that as deliverable for anything beyond a static web page - at least not without a ridiculous amount of effort and complexity. This is less a failing of the technology and more the result of the various companies refusing to work together to make a developer's life easier. If I had to guess, I'd say in 2020 we'll have just as fractured of a model as we have right now. I think people who write for a specific screen size/hardware/nitch are going to kick the pOOpie out of those who try to cover all bases with a one size fits all solution. That and hopefully most businesses will wake up and realize that for most applications most form factors aren't needed. Just because you can view finanical reports on your iPhone doesn't mean you should. It's okay to get all fanboi over it if you want. I'm just not seeing it. Looks like a great deal of smoke and mirrors to me.
Stick with COBOL me lad. The demand will soon return. :-D
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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Stick with COBOL me lad. The demand will soon return. :-D
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Actually, it's never gone away.
Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.” I wouldn't let CG touch my Abacus! When you're wrestling a gorilla, you don't stop when you're tired, you stop when the gorilla is.
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MehGerbil wrote:
I hate the whole web programming model from start to finish
Me too. Just ignore it and it'll go away.
I'm gonna do you one better. I'm forming a new HTML language authority. We'll work on defining HTML 6 and we'll bill ourselves as the people responsible for this new version from start to finish. We'll get all of our friends together and give them high paying jobs, set a 'due date' of 2030, and then sit back and do nothing for the next two decades while enjoying our own sense of self appointed, self aggrandizing importance. Oh sure, we'll actually employ a couple of code monkeys to dribble out a spec now and again - or better yet, write imaginary specs and see what the web makers do with it and just copy their work. This is great because the browser manufacturers would want us to copy their work and I bet they'd pay us to copy their work. What would Microsoft pay under the table to be able to author the ACID6 test for IE 15? I'm thinking somewhere north of 9 figures - or probably half of what the European Union would be willing to pay for the privilege if it allowed them to sue Microsoft again. The money wouldn't be in our salaries - it would be in the sheer power of doing absolutely nothing while cutting deals to keep it that way. Which hints at credibility - we'd give ourselves credibility by putting a few Europeans on the board and we'd frequently trash talk Microsoft. We'd keep pointing toward some future date on the horizon when "harmony" would be acheived. Heck, even if we failed I'd be ready to retire after 2 decades of wine and cheese. Who wants in as a founding board member?
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I'm gonna do you one better. I'm forming a new HTML language authority. We'll work on defining HTML 6 and we'll bill ourselves as the people responsible for this new version from start to finish. We'll get all of our friends together and give them high paying jobs, set a 'due date' of 2030, and then sit back and do nothing for the next two decades while enjoying our own sense of self appointed, self aggrandizing importance. Oh sure, we'll actually employ a couple of code monkeys to dribble out a spec now and again - or better yet, write imaginary specs and see what the web makers do with it and just copy their work. This is great because the browser manufacturers would want us to copy their work and I bet they'd pay us to copy their work. What would Microsoft pay under the table to be able to author the ACID6 test for IE 15? I'm thinking somewhere north of 9 figures - or probably half of what the European Union would be willing to pay for the privilege if it allowed them to sue Microsoft again. The money wouldn't be in our salaries - it would be in the sheer power of doing absolutely nothing while cutting deals to keep it that way. Which hints at credibility - we'd give ourselves credibility by putting a few Europeans on the board and we'd frequently trash talk Microsoft. We'd keep pointing toward some future date on the horizon when "harmony" would be acheived. Heck, even if we failed I'd be ready to retire after 2 decades of wine and cheese. Who wants in as a founding board member?
MehGerbil wrote:
a few Europeans on the board
Well, as someone from England, I'm tentatively in Europe, but that might count as European enough.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
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I'm gonna do you one better. I'm forming a new HTML language authority. We'll work on defining HTML 6 and we'll bill ourselves as the people responsible for this new version from start to finish. We'll get all of our friends together and give them high paying jobs, set a 'due date' of 2030, and then sit back and do nothing for the next two decades while enjoying our own sense of self appointed, self aggrandizing importance. Oh sure, we'll actually employ a couple of code monkeys to dribble out a spec now and again - or better yet, write imaginary specs and see what the web makers do with it and just copy their work. This is great because the browser manufacturers would want us to copy their work and I bet they'd pay us to copy their work. What would Microsoft pay under the table to be able to author the ACID6 test for IE 15? I'm thinking somewhere north of 9 figures - or probably half of what the European Union would be willing to pay for the privilege if it allowed them to sue Microsoft again. The money wouldn't be in our salaries - it would be in the sheer power of doing absolutely nothing while cutting deals to keep it that way. Which hints at credibility - we'd give ourselves credibility by putting a few Europeans on the board and we'd frequently trash talk Microsoft. We'd keep pointing toward some future date on the horizon when "harmony" would be acheived. Heck, even if we failed I'd be ready to retire after 2 decades of wine and cheese. Who wants in as a founding board member?
I can trump POH. I'm British, with Irish parents and Married to an Hungarian. I drink French wine, German and Czech beers, and I've visit at least half of the EU member states. I'll even take to driving an Italian car. I think that makes me truly European. :-D
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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I can trump POH. I'm British, with Irish parents and Married to an Hungarian. I drink French wine, German and Czech beers, and I've visit at least half of the EU member states. I'll even take to driving an Italian car. I think that makes me truly European. :-D
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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MehGerbil wrote:
a few Europeans on the board
Well, as someone from England, I'm tentatively in Europe, but that might count as European enough.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
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I think we can make room for you. However, the less English speaking people we have the better. Thankfully, I'm American and I've not spoken a word of English in my entire life.
MehGerbil wrote:
However, the less English speaking people we have the better.
I'm a Geordie, so no problem there. You have heard Cheryl Cole speak haven't you?
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
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I must be getting old. I just refuse to buy the HTML 5/Java Hype. I hate the whole web programming model from start to finish, which doesn't help. Having one langauge for server side code and another for client side code, along with a mass of libraries, CSS, and a dozen other considerations makes my head hurt. It would be fair to call me lazy or unwilling to learn at that point - I won't hate you for that. The thing is, it goes beyond just the ridiculous complexity. The fact is that after 15 years of browser wars the browsers are no closer to behaving the same than they were in 1995. Can you blame them? There is no finalized standard to work against and they trip over themselves in the never ending one-up-manship game. But it gets worse in that the browser isn't the only consideration. Now you've got different hardware that could include anything from a 3" screen up to a 40" screen and beyond. The primary promise of HTML 5/Java is that of program once, run anywhere. I don't see that as deliverable for anything beyond a static web page - at least not without a ridiculous amount of effort and complexity. This is less a failing of the technology and more the result of the various companies refusing to work together to make a developer's life easier. If I had to guess, I'd say in 2020 we'll have just as fractured of a model as we have right now. I think people who write for a specific screen size/hardware/nitch are going to kick the pOOpie out of those who try to cover all bases with a one size fits all solution. That and hopefully most businesses will wake up and realize that for most applications most form factors aren't needed. Just because you can view finanical reports on your iPhone doesn't mean you should. It's okay to get all fanboi over it if you want. I'm just not seeing it. Looks like a great deal of smoke and mirrors to me.
Yep. Web front-end programming is a mess. I kind of like the back-end, though: you get an http request, you handle it and move to the next one - much less state to worry about. Of course, there are all these frameworks to make this simple model complicated, but it is really no different in the desktop world either.
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MehGerbil wrote:
However, the less English speaking people we have the better.
I'm a Geordie, so no problem there. You have heard Cheryl Cole speak haven't you?
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
I wasn't listening to a word she said. :-D
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Yeah, I thought of that as I was writing it. That brings up another point though: I've had websites that require Java and use JavaScript both. It's just so messed up.
I think your posts here reflect an uninformed view. Java is to Javascript what Poo is to Shampoo. Totally unrelated technologies. Java, Silverlight, Flash are all dying. Web plugins are dying. HTML5 is now powerful enough for 99% of apps out there. I used to hate web development, as I came from a desktop dev background. Now, I've grown to like web development and see it as the future. The only viable native app development for consumers is mobile, and eventually HTML will be powerful enough to overtake that, just as it did desktop apps.
My Messianic Jewish blog: Kineti L'Tziyon My software blog: Debugger.Break() Judah Himango
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MehGerbil wrote:
I hate the whole web programming model from start to finish
Me too. Just ignore it and it'll go away.
PIEBALDconsult wrote:
Just ignore it and it'll go away.
I'm blown away at the luddite brashness here. Ignore the web and it will go away? :wtf: The web is here to stay. All the contender technologies have fallen by the wayside. HTML + JavaScript is here, now, and it's here to stay. It's already won. It's available on every PC, Mac, iPhone, iPad, Droid, and every mobile device out there. There are people in the freakin' Congo with no access to a PC, but with access to a mobile phone. You know what kind of apps they can run? HTML + JavaScript. You can't say that about any other tech. For better or worse, HTML + JavaScript has won. Position yourself wisely.
My Messianic Jewish blog: Kineti L'Tziyon My software blog: Debugger.Break() Judah Himango
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You are not alone in your evaluation.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997No, my boss is present too, and keeps yelling for some reason.
Somebody in an online forum wrote:
INTJs never really joke. They make a point. The joke is just a gift wrapper.
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I think your posts here reflect an uninformed view. Java is to Javascript what Poo is to Shampoo. Totally unrelated technologies. Java, Silverlight, Flash are all dying. Web plugins are dying. HTML5 is now powerful enough for 99% of apps out there. I used to hate web development, as I came from a desktop dev background. Now, I've grown to like web development and see it as the future. The only viable native app development for consumers is mobile, and eventually HTML will be powerful enough to overtake that, just as it did desktop apps.
My Messianic Jewish blog: Kineti L'Tziyon My software blog: Debugger.Break() Judah Himango
I like your analogy of Java:JavaScript :thumbsup:
Judah Himango wrote:
The only viable native app development for consumers is mobile, and eventually HTML will be powerful enough to overtake that, just as it did desktop apps.
How do you figure? What apps do you use that are not natively developed that are on your desktop? There are a lot of great applications of the web technologies, but you're drinking more than just kool-aid if you think consumers will not be using natively developed applications in the future.
All of my software is powered by a single Watt.