Killing My Career: Not Buying the HTML 5/Java Hype
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I must be getting old. I just refuse to buy the HTML 5/Java Hype. I hate the whole web programming model from start to finish, which doesn't help. Having one langauge for server side code and another for client side code, along with a mass of libraries, CSS, and a dozen other considerations makes my head hurt. It would be fair to call me lazy or unwilling to learn at that point - I won't hate you for that. The thing is, it goes beyond just the ridiculous complexity. The fact is that after 15 years of browser wars the browsers are no closer to behaving the same than they were in 1995. Can you blame them? There is no finalized standard to work against and they trip over themselves in the never ending one-up-manship game. But it gets worse in that the browser isn't the only consideration. Now you've got different hardware that could include anything from a 3" screen up to a 40" screen and beyond. The primary promise of HTML 5/Java is that of program once, run anywhere. I don't see that as deliverable for anything beyond a static web page - at least not without a ridiculous amount of effort and complexity. This is less a failing of the technology and more the result of the various companies refusing to work together to make a developer's life easier. If I had to guess, I'd say in 2020 we'll have just as fractured of a model as we have right now. I think people who write for a specific screen size/hardware/nitch are going to kick the pOOpie out of those who try to cover all bases with a one size fits all solution. That and hopefully most businesses will wake up and realize that for most applications most form factors aren't needed. Just because you can view finanical reports on your iPhone doesn't mean you should. It's okay to get all fanboi over it if you want. I'm just not seeing it. Looks like a great deal of smoke and mirrors to me.
Yep. Web front-end programming is a mess. I kind of like the back-end, though: you get an http request, you handle it and move to the next one - much less state to worry about. Of course, there are all these frameworks to make this simple model complicated, but it is really no different in the desktop world either.
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MehGerbil wrote:
However, the less English speaking people we have the better.
I'm a Geordie, so no problem there. You have heard Cheryl Cole speak haven't you?
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
I wasn't listening to a word she said. :-D
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Yeah, I thought of that as I was writing it. That brings up another point though: I've had websites that require Java and use JavaScript both. It's just so messed up.
I think your posts here reflect an uninformed view. Java is to Javascript what Poo is to Shampoo. Totally unrelated technologies. Java, Silverlight, Flash are all dying. Web plugins are dying. HTML5 is now powerful enough for 99% of apps out there. I used to hate web development, as I came from a desktop dev background. Now, I've grown to like web development and see it as the future. The only viable native app development for consumers is mobile, and eventually HTML will be powerful enough to overtake that, just as it did desktop apps.
My Messianic Jewish blog: Kineti L'Tziyon My software blog: Debugger.Break() Judah Himango
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MehGerbil wrote:
I hate the whole web programming model from start to finish
Me too. Just ignore it and it'll go away.
PIEBALDconsult wrote:
Just ignore it and it'll go away.
I'm blown away at the luddite brashness here. Ignore the web and it will go away? :wtf: The web is here to stay. All the contender technologies have fallen by the wayside. HTML + JavaScript is here, now, and it's here to stay. It's already won. It's available on every PC, Mac, iPhone, iPad, Droid, and every mobile device out there. There are people in the freakin' Congo with no access to a PC, but with access to a mobile phone. You know what kind of apps they can run? HTML + JavaScript. You can't say that about any other tech. For better or worse, HTML + JavaScript has won. Position yourself wisely.
My Messianic Jewish blog: Kineti L'Tziyon My software blog: Debugger.Break() Judah Himango
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You are not alone in your evaluation.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997No, my boss is present too, and keeps yelling for some reason.
Somebody in an online forum wrote:
INTJs never really joke. They make a point. The joke is just a gift wrapper.
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I think your posts here reflect an uninformed view. Java is to Javascript what Poo is to Shampoo. Totally unrelated technologies. Java, Silverlight, Flash are all dying. Web plugins are dying. HTML5 is now powerful enough for 99% of apps out there. I used to hate web development, as I came from a desktop dev background. Now, I've grown to like web development and see it as the future. The only viable native app development for consumers is mobile, and eventually HTML will be powerful enough to overtake that, just as it did desktop apps.
My Messianic Jewish blog: Kineti L'Tziyon My software blog: Debugger.Break() Judah Himango
I like your analogy of Java:JavaScript :thumbsup:
Judah Himango wrote:
The only viable native app development for consumers is mobile, and eventually HTML will be powerful enough to overtake that, just as it did desktop apps.
How do you figure? What apps do you use that are not natively developed that are on your desktop? There are a lot of great applications of the web technologies, but you're drinking more than just kool-aid if you think consumers will not be using natively developed applications in the future.
All of my software is powered by a single Watt.
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I think your posts here reflect an uninformed view. Java is to Javascript what Poo is to Shampoo. Totally unrelated technologies. Java, Silverlight, Flash are all dying. Web plugins are dying. HTML5 is now powerful enough for 99% of apps out there. I used to hate web development, as I came from a desktop dev background. Now, I've grown to like web development and see it as the future. The only viable native app development for consumers is mobile, and eventually HTML will be powerful enough to overtake that, just as it did desktop apps.
My Messianic Jewish blog: Kineti L'Tziyon My software blog: Debugger.Break() Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
HTML5 is now powerful enough for 99% of apps out there.
But only available to less than 40% of the browsers out there, and then only to differing degrees. The thing that people seem to forget is that, as of this moment in time, there IS NO HTML 5. There are differing versions of a draft specification, but browser manufacturers are free to go their own way and claim HTML 5 compatibility using completely different feature specifications.
Judah Himango wrote:
eventually HTML will be powerful enough to overtake that, just as it did desktop apps
HTML has not overtaken desktop applications. If I wanted to run a 3D rendering application, I'd go to something like 3D Studio Max or Maya, both of which are desktop applications - Google Sketchup just isn't powerful enough to compete. Java is dying? So, you see Java being removed from servers altogether?
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
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PIEBALDconsult wrote:
Just ignore it and it'll go away.
I'm blown away at the luddite brashness here. Ignore the web and it will go away? :wtf: The web is here to stay. All the contender technologies have fallen by the wayside. HTML + JavaScript is here, now, and it's here to stay. It's already won. It's available on every PC, Mac, iPhone, iPad, Droid, and every mobile device out there. There are people in the freakin' Congo with no access to a PC, but with access to a mobile phone. You know what kind of apps they can run? HTML + JavaScript. You can't say that about any other tech. For better or worse, HTML + JavaScript has won. Position yourself wisely.
My Messianic Jewish blog: Kineti L'Tziyon My software blog: Debugger.Break() Judah Himango
Either my humor detector is broken or yours is.
Somebody in an online forum wrote:
INTJs never really joke. They make a point. The joke is just a gift wrapper.
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I must be getting old. I just refuse to buy the HTML 5/Java Hype. I hate the whole web programming model from start to finish, which doesn't help. Having one langauge for server side code and another for client side code, along with a mass of libraries, CSS, and a dozen other considerations makes my head hurt. It would be fair to call me lazy or unwilling to learn at that point - I won't hate you for that. The thing is, it goes beyond just the ridiculous complexity. The fact is that after 15 years of browser wars the browsers are no closer to behaving the same than they were in 1995. Can you blame them? There is no finalized standard to work against and they trip over themselves in the never ending one-up-manship game. But it gets worse in that the browser isn't the only consideration. Now you've got different hardware that could include anything from a 3" screen up to a 40" screen and beyond. The primary promise of HTML 5/Java is that of program once, run anywhere. I don't see that as deliverable for anything beyond a static web page - at least not without a ridiculous amount of effort and complexity. This is less a failing of the technology and more the result of the various companies refusing to work together to make a developer's life easier. If I had to guess, I'd say in 2020 we'll have just as fractured of a model as we have right now. I think people who write for a specific screen size/hardware/nitch are going to kick the pOOpie out of those who try to cover all bases with a one size fits all solution. That and hopefully most businesses will wake up and realize that for most applications most form factors aren't needed. Just because you can view finanical reports on your iPhone doesn't mean you should. It's okay to get all fanboi over it if you want. I'm just not seeing it. Looks like a great deal of smoke and mirrors to me.
There will never be just one technology. Similar to your statement:
MehGerbil wrote:
Just because you can view finanical reports on your iPhone doesn't mean you should.
Just because you can do the job with a hammer, that doesn't mean you should. Just focus on picking the right tool for the right job and you'll do fine. Don't like HTML5/JavaScript, choose a job where that's not the right tool.
All of my software is powered by a single Watt.
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Judah Himango wrote:
HTML5 is now powerful enough for 99% of apps out there.
But only available to less than 40% of the browsers out there, and then only to differing degrees. The thing that people seem to forget is that, as of this moment in time, there IS NO HTML 5. There are differing versions of a draft specification, but browser manufacturers are free to go their own way and claim HTML 5 compatibility using completely different feature specifications.
Judah Himango wrote:
eventually HTML will be powerful enough to overtake that, just as it did desktop apps
HTML has not overtaken desktop applications. If I wanted to run a 3D rendering application, I'd go to something like 3D Studio Max or Maya, both of which are desktop applications - Google Sketchup just isn't powerful enough to compete. Java is dying? So, you see Java being removed from servers altogether?
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
But only available to less than 40% of the browsers out there
It's far better than 40% of the browsers, but yes, it isn't ubiquitous. I've been porting my Silverlight Pandora Clone[^] -- which currently has a nice little following of about 700 users a week -- to HTML5 and JavaScript. The main reason being, with HTML, I can reach iPad, iPhone, and Droid users. So, I figured I'd just use the new HTML5 <audio> tag, right? Surprise! Droid supports the <audio> tag, but supports zero audio formats. (LOL!) Surprise! iOS devices require activating some control before you can play audio. Surprise! Firefox doesn't support the MP3 format because of licensing costs. Surprise! All the browsers have different ways of supporting audio-related events, such as onended. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Granted, you can get around these problems with polyfilling[^]. But even with all the "it's not really supported right everywhere" problems, it's still got the best reach of any technology. Furthermore, the reach only improves with time: Droid is getting proper MP3 support as we speak, for example.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
HTML has not overtaken desktop applications.
It has for almost everything: Email is conquered via the likes of Gmail. Office is being conquered, via the likes of Google Docs, Zoho, Office 365. Music and entertainment is conquered via Netflix, Grooveshark, Pandora. The last bastion of desktop apps I've got are Visual Studio and company-required Lotus Notes. Even development tools like VS will eventually face competition from web-based IDEs that don't churn your hard disk or freeze up while doing a refactoring. As it stands, Microsoft needs to make Windows apps relevant again. As it stands today, Windows apps are in a sick, sad state[^].
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I think your posts here reflect an uninformed view. Java is to Javascript what Poo is to Shampoo. Totally unrelated technologies. Java, Silverlight, Flash are all dying. Web plugins are dying. HTML5 is now powerful enough for 99% of apps out there. I used to hate web development, as I came from a desktop dev background. Now, I've grown to like web development and see it as the future. The only viable native app development for consumers is mobile, and eventually HTML will be powerful enough to overtake that, just as it did desktop apps.
My Messianic Jewish blog: Kineti L'Tziyon My software blog: Debugger.Break() Judah Himango
:laugh:
All of my software is powered by a single Watt.
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I like your analogy of Java:JavaScript :thumbsup:
Judah Himango wrote:
The only viable native app development for consumers is mobile, and eventually HTML will be powerful enough to overtake that, just as it did desktop apps.
How do you figure? What apps do you use that are not natively developed that are on your desktop? There are a lot of great applications of the web technologies, but you're drinking more than just kool-aid if you think consumers will not be using natively developed applications in the future.
All of my software is powered by a single Watt.
Paul Watt wrote:
What apps do you use that are not natively developed that are on your desktop?
I used to use Outlook or Thunderbird for my email. Now I use Gmail and haven't been happier. I used to use MS Office or Open Office for my documents. Now I use Google Docs. I used to use AIM or Windows Messenger to chat with people. Now I use Facebook, integrated Google chat, etc. I used to store pictures on my computer and email them to people. Now I use Facebook, blogs, and cloud storage to share and preserve photos. I do believe native apps will have a role in the future. But, as of 2011, Windows apps suck monkey balls[^]. We'll see if MS can reverse this trend with WinRT/Metro.
My Messianic Jewish blog: Kineti L'Tziyon My software blog: Debugger.Break() Judah Himango
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Paul Watt wrote:
What apps do you use that are not natively developed that are on your desktop?
I used to use Outlook or Thunderbird for my email. Now I use Gmail and haven't been happier. I used to use MS Office or Open Office for my documents. Now I use Google Docs. I used to use AIM or Windows Messenger to chat with people. Now I use Facebook, integrated Google chat, etc. I used to store pictures on my computer and email them to people. Now I use Facebook, blogs, and cloud storage to share and preserve photos. I do believe native apps will have a role in the future. But, as of 2011, Windows apps suck monkey balls[^]. We'll see if MS can reverse this trend with WinRT/Metro.
My Messianic Jewish blog: Kineti L'Tziyon My software blog: Debugger.Break() Judah Himango
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Either my humor detector is broken or yours is.
Somebody in an online forum wrote:
INTJs never really joke. They make a point. The joke is just a gift wrapper.
:doh: Thought you were serious! With all the luddite stuff I've been seeing on CP over the last few days, maybe I'm too touchy. :-) Sorry 'bout that.
My Messianic Jewish blog: Kineti L'Tziyon My software blog: Debugger.Break() Judah Himango
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It's safe. :-) I promise no pictures of monkey naughty bits.
My Messianic Jewish blog: Kineti L'Tziyon My software blog: Debugger.Break() Judah Himango
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I think your posts here reflect an uninformed view. Java is to Javascript what Poo is to Shampoo. Totally unrelated technologies. Java, Silverlight, Flash are all dying. Web plugins are dying. HTML5 is now powerful enough for 99% of apps out there. I used to hate web development, as I came from a desktop dev background. Now, I've grown to like web development and see it as the future. The only viable native app development for consumers is mobile, and eventually HTML will be powerful enough to overtake that, just as it did desktop apps.
My Messianic Jewish blog: Kineti L'Tziyon My software blog: Debugger.Break() Judah Himango
The gamer market is now larger than Hollywood. MMORPGS such as WOW, LOTRO, and FPS games like BF3 aren't going to be in the browser anytime soon. So while 99% of the apps may be fine in HTML 5 (because most of them are calculators) the really good stuff on computers still requires DirectX, large installs, and so forth. Furthermore, if you like HTML 5 that's fine. It's just not for me.
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The gamer market is now larger than Hollywood. MMORPGS such as WOW, LOTRO, and FPS games like BF3 aren't going to be in the browser anytime soon. So while 99% of the apps may be fine in HTML 5 (because most of them are calculators) the really good stuff on computers still requires DirectX, large installs, and so forth. Furthermore, if you like HTML 5 that's fine. It's just not for me.
MehGerbil wrote:
Furthermore, if you like HTML 5 that's fine.
I don't particularly like it; it's just that it's abundantly clear that the web won. XAML is a superior technology, but if you want reach, HTML is the way to go. Likewise, C# is clearly superior to JavaScript, but if you want reach, you'll have to bite the bullet and use HTML+JavaScript.
MehGerbil wrote:
FPS games like BF3 aren't going to be in the browser anytime soon.
Why not? WebGL[^] is becoming ubiquitous. Imagine never having to run an installer. Imagine never having to download and install patches. There's no reason that full 3d immersive experiences can't be delivered over the native web.
My Messianic Jewish blog: Kineti L'Tziyon My software blog: Debugger.Break() Judah Himango
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MehGerbil wrote:
Furthermore, if you like HTML 5 that's fine.
I don't particularly like it; it's just that it's abundantly clear that the web won. XAML is a superior technology, but if you want reach, HTML is the way to go. Likewise, C# is clearly superior to JavaScript, but if you want reach, you'll have to bite the bullet and use HTML+JavaScript.
MehGerbil wrote:
FPS games like BF3 aren't going to be in the browser anytime soon.
Why not? WebGL[^] is becoming ubiquitous. Imagine never having to run an installer. Imagine never having to download and install patches. There's no reason that full 3d immersive experiences can't be delivered over the native web.
My Messianic Jewish blog: Kineti L'Tziyon My software blog: Debugger.Break() Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
I don't particularly like it; it's just that it's abundantly clear that the web won. XAML is a superior technology, but if you want reach, HTML is the way to go. Likewise, C# is clearly superior to JavaScript, but if you want reach, you'll have to bite the bullet and use HTML+JavaScript.
I'm going to take a chance and disagree here. Please don't dig up these posts years from now and rub them in my monkey bits. First off, I'm going point out that the statement: it's abundantly clear that the web won isn't the same as saying that HTML 5/Javascript is a good technology stack. The web is neutral and information on it can be distributed in many ways - hopefully humanity will get its act together and ditch the mess for something that makes sense. Secondly, I've read more than one article lately where the author has expressed concern over web stores (like the Apple store) where many developers are making good money writing applications specific to a platform - and they ain't using HTML 5 to do it. Just a few years ago nobody thought 20 million iPads (or more) would be out there consuming Apple store offerings. In short, I think an argument could be made towards futher fragmentation. I'm not against the idea of bringing everything under one umbrella. I just the hype over standards that won't be finalized for 8 years is a bit silly.
Judah Himango wrote:
Why not? WebGL[^] is becoming ubiquitous. Imagine never having to run an installer. Imagine never having to download and install patches. There's no reason that full 3d immersive experiences can't be delivered over the native web.
We aren't talking Angry Birds here. We are talking about games with 16 GB installs where the bandwidth is used to keep track of 64 players running around on a battlefield (In full HD) - there is no time/bandwidth to stream 1GB maps. And by the way, those games simply cannot be written in HTML 5 or any future version of HTML 5 - not, nada, no can do - not now, not ever. I'm not making the case that HTML 5 isn't a good thing. I'm only claiming that I dislike it and I doubt it's future is any better than HTML 4. Furthermore, I think we've a future of further fragmentation ahead meaning that even if HTML 5 was half
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:doh: Thought you were serious! With all the luddite stuff I've been seeing on CP over the last few days, maybe I'm too touchy. :-) Sorry 'bout that.
My Messianic Jewish blog: Kineti L'Tziyon My software blog: Debugger.Break() Judah Himango
Psst: I'm not PIEBALDconsult. :)
Somebody in an online forum wrote:
INTJs never really joke. They make a point. The joke is just a gift wrapper.
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Paul Watt wrote:
What apps do you use that are not natively developed that are on your desktop?
I used to use Outlook or Thunderbird for my email. Now I use Gmail and haven't been happier. I used to use MS Office or Open Office for my documents. Now I use Google Docs. I used to use AIM or Windows Messenger to chat with people. Now I use Facebook, integrated Google chat, etc. I used to store pictures on my computer and email them to people. Now I use Facebook, blogs, and cloud storage to share and preserve photos. I do believe native apps will have a role in the future. But, as of 2011, Windows apps suck monkey balls[^]. We'll see if MS can reverse this trend with WinRT/Metro.
My Messianic Jewish blog: Kineti L'Tziyon My software blog: Debugger.Break() Judah Himango
The only data of any sort that I would allow to be stored by some third party somewhere...out...there...somewhere is the sort I don't care if a) it gets lost and b) contains nothing of any import.
So I rounded up my camel Just to ask him for a smoke He handed me a Lucky, I said "Hey, you missed the joke." My Mu[sic] My Films My Windows Programs, etc.