Will the TSA allow these on planes?
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Hydrogen powered laptops and smartphones [^] :confused:
Steve _________________ I C(++) therefore I am
Smart. Here's what will happen. The hydrogen tanks won't be refillable - trying to do so will void all warranties for all Apple products you own, and phone home to Apple so they can remotely brick your devices. Any third party H-tanks will be killed by anti-competitive patent wars. Apple's own H-tanks will cost at least 100 times what the same energy would cost at the wall socket.
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Hydrogen powered laptops and smartphones [^] :confused:
Steve _________________ I C(++) therefore I am
So we all going to walk around with wet patches in our pockets? You know the water by product...
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Hydrogen powered laptops and smartphones [^] :confused:
Steve _________________ I C(++) therefore I am
Only if they don't fit your rectum.
FILETIME to time_t
| FoldWithUs! | sighist | WhoIncludes - Analyzing C++ include file hierarchy -
Hmmm... I'd have thought the hydrogen in a hydrogen fuel cell is about as dangerous as lithium in a lithium battery. Lithium is quite lethal on its own, but nobody bats an eyelid when it's made into a battery...:~
Almost, but not quite, entirely unlike... me...
Yeah, but lithium is a low metallic solid* (being a metal) and hydrogen is a gas. Hydrogen gas also produces what is called an 'explosive mixture' with air in an extremely wide range of mixtures. Having what is know as an inverted Joule/Thompson coefficient at higher pressures, a hydrogen leak through a tiny crack or pinhole would become a self-ignited jet of flame (an invisible one, at that). Hydrogen is really really dangerous sh^t that should not be used outside of labs and industrial manufacturing facilities. Oh, yeah, one more thing with the hydrogen fuel-cell economy (particularly for vehicles) that so often touted as the clean-energy answer. Where are we to get this hydrogen? Sure, it's very abundant on Earth: in the form of water. Electolysis, one way or another, requires energy in excess of that which the hydrogen will eventually return on its way back to water. Where's that to come from? That question begs the question: then why not use the energy at that point and save the energy loss of the conversion step. Where-does-it-come-from is usually left out of the discussion because it's an inconvenient question [and thermodynamics is a rather dull branch of chemistry.] * Admittedly, Li reacts with water to produce hydrogen (and heat), but one would expect catastrophic results well before the entire cell's Li is consumed.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Hydrogen powered laptops and smartphones [^] :confused:
Steve _________________ I C(++) therefore I am
Aside from the technology it is interesting to see the reach of Apple. There are many universities and private companies reaching this but, Apple, a consumer electronics company, files patents for it. Think Different. Just don't enfringe our patents.
No comment
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Yeah, but lithium is a low metallic solid* (being a metal) and hydrogen is a gas. Hydrogen gas also produces what is called an 'explosive mixture' with air in an extremely wide range of mixtures. Having what is know as an inverted Joule/Thompson coefficient at higher pressures, a hydrogen leak through a tiny crack or pinhole would become a self-ignited jet of flame (an invisible one, at that). Hydrogen is really really dangerous sh^t that should not be used outside of labs and industrial manufacturing facilities. Oh, yeah, one more thing with the hydrogen fuel-cell economy (particularly for vehicles) that so often touted as the clean-energy answer. Where are we to get this hydrogen? Sure, it's very abundant on Earth: in the form of water. Electolysis, one way or another, requires energy in excess of that which the hydrogen will eventually return on its way back to water. Where's that to come from? That question begs the question: then why not use the energy at that point and save the energy loss of the conversion step. Where-does-it-come-from is usually left out of the discussion because it's an inconvenient question [and thermodynamics is a rather dull branch of chemistry.] * Admittedly, Li reacts with water to produce hydrogen (and heat), but one would expect catastrophic results well before the entire cell's Li is consumed.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos wrote:
Oh, yeah, one more thing with the hydrogen fuel-cell economy (particularly for vehicles) that so often touted as the clean-energy answer. Where are we to get this hydrogen? Sure, it's very abundant on Earth: in the form of water. Electolysis, one way or another, requires energy in excess of that which the hydrogen will eventually return on its way back to water. Where's that to come from? That question begs the question: then why not use the energy at that point and save the energy loss of the conversion step. Where-does-it-come-from is usually left out of the discussion because it's an inconvenient question [and thermodynamics is a rather dull branch of chemistry.]
That is not a well thought argument at all. You are just repeating a worn out argument and not really stopped to think about the issue at all. Precisely hydrogen fuel cells are one of the convenient solutions for the future "era" of renewable energies, mainly wind power, solar power and to an extent runoff hydroelectric power plants which can not be stored and are thus wasted if there is no demand of power when they are available. The issue with energy is that we are not very good at storing it...thermal energy does not store well at all unless you incur massive costs, neither does electric energy (batteries is the best we can do)...the only type of storage we are able to do fairly well is potential energy but its expensive: hydroelectric plants are just a potential energy storage system. The big advantage of hydrogen fuel cells is that its possibly the best "portable" energy storage system we have, way better than our current batteries and a whole lot cleaner. What you seem to be completely unaware of is that in most 1rst world countries there is a massive amount of energy surplus in certain time frames (mainly night time). As shutting down conventional or nuclear thermal based plants is too expensive these are normally kept running and some important power consumers are even encouraged financially to demand energy in order to keep the electric system balanced (some power plant generators are even run in motor mode in order to add to the demand). Add to this excess of energy all the wind power that is not running at night and you have a huge energy surplus that is not being used and is in most cases "wasted" as it can't be stored (wind). There is the power you need for hydrogen at zero environmental additional cost. Obviously there is a
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So we all going to walk around with wet patches in our pockets? You know the water by product...
No need for ringtones - when you get a call, the phone pees on you... :laugh:
Steve _________________ I C(++) therefore I am
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Yeah, but lithium is a low metallic solid* (being a metal) and hydrogen is a gas. Hydrogen gas also produces what is called an 'explosive mixture' with air in an extremely wide range of mixtures. Having what is know as an inverted Joule/Thompson coefficient at higher pressures, a hydrogen leak through a tiny crack or pinhole would become a self-ignited jet of flame (an invisible one, at that). Hydrogen is really really dangerous sh^t that should not be used outside of labs and industrial manufacturing facilities. Oh, yeah, one more thing with the hydrogen fuel-cell economy (particularly for vehicles) that so often touted as the clean-energy answer. Where are we to get this hydrogen? Sure, it's very abundant on Earth: in the form of water. Electolysis, one way or another, requires energy in excess of that which the hydrogen will eventually return on its way back to water. Where's that to come from? That question begs the question: then why not use the energy at that point and save the energy loss of the conversion step. Where-does-it-come-from is usually left out of the discussion because it's an inconvenient question [and thermodynamics is a rather dull branch of chemistry.] * Admittedly, Li reacts with water to produce hydrogen (and heat), but one would expect catastrophic results well before the entire cell's Li is consumed.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
The primary reason that solar and wind power fail economically is that the bulk of the electrical load is what is known as "base load," and this load is always present. Both alternative sources are useless for this purpose for lack of an economical storage medium; they both are "peaky" and there's no reasonable way to store the energy they produce for future use. Electrolysis of water into H2 and O2 may be a way to introduce a viable storage medium which has value of its own. Safety is certainly an issue, but otherwise technologically inept people have managed to find safe ways to use gasoline and natural gas, so there's no reason to expect that they can't be trained to use hydrogen safely, with the use of coloring books and other basic training aids, of course.
Will Rogers never met me.
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Hydrogen powered laptops and smartphones [^] :confused:
Steve _________________ I C(++) therefore I am
Trouble is that if you keep it in your trouser pocket, it'll look like you've peed yourself.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Hmmm... I'd have thought the hydrogen in a hydrogen fuel cell is about as dangerous as lithium in a lithium battery. Lithium is quite lethal on its own, but nobody bats an eyelid when it's made into a battery...:~
Almost, but not quite, entirely unlike... me...
PaulowniaK wrote:
Lithium is quite lethal on its own
Lithium treatment is used to treat mania in bipolar disorder.
Schenectady? What am I doing in Schenectady?
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The primary reason that solar and wind power fail economically is that the bulk of the electrical load is what is known as "base load," and this load is always present. Both alternative sources are useless for this purpose for lack of an economical storage medium; they both are "peaky" and there's no reasonable way to store the energy they produce for future use. Electrolysis of water into H2 and O2 may be a way to introduce a viable storage medium which has value of its own. Safety is certainly an issue, but otherwise technologically inept people have managed to find safe ways to use gasoline and natural gas, so there's no reason to expect that they can't be trained to use hydrogen safely, with the use of coloring books and other basic training aids, of course.
Will Rogers never met me.
Roger Wright wrote:
Safety is certainly an issue, but otherwise technologically inept people have managed to find safe ways to use gasoline and natural gas, so there's no reason to expect that they can't be trained to use hydrogen safely, with the use of coloring books and other basic training aids, of course.
I would have felt a lot better if you had remembered to use the joke-reply-option when you posted that! Please don't take this as arrogant, but I have a feeling you've never worked with Hydrogen, particularly when pressurized. This is not the same as handling propane for a bar-b-q grill. It doesn't liquify under pressure, to start, and the implication of that alone are considerable (viz-a-viz, propane, butane, etc). Being a person who's worked with a range of gasses from hydrogen, helium, carbon monoxide and phosphine through Uranium hexafluoride, let me assure you, only helium is harder to control for loss through leakage - but it doesn't blow the place apart. Hydrogen's range of forming what is known as an 'explosive mixture' with air is particularly broad, and under the right circumstances, can act as its own source of ignition. Even in a 30-cm diameter balloon, a hydrogen/oxygen mixture makes an awesome blast. More on safety: unlike natural gas, which is typically scented with methyl mercaptan (HSCH3 so you can smell a leak (at least for a little while), doing so with the hydrogen would deactivate the fuel cell (the volatile 'sulfides' are famous for this property). For a fuel cell, itt has to be the pure stuff: colorless, odorless, and explosive. As for solar power, one question I've always wondered about: where are we going to get the available sunlit surface area to cover with the cells? Have you (or anyone) considered the environmental impact of hiding rather large (and almost certainly nearly-contiguous) pieces of earth? Solar power is a great idea for a supplement, such as roof-top setups, but it's really quite limited. Furthermore, conversion of sunlight to electricity is limited to a maximum of ca. 20% for a perfect solar cell. To get better conversion rates you'll need to capture the energy as heat, use it to run turbines, etc. [Unless we find an alternative to solar cells using semiconductor band-gaps and escape the hyperbolic power relationship] Don't get me wrong - I'm definitely an alternative-energy person. Even when oil was cheap and CO2 wasn't a concern, oil was too precious to
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Roger Wright wrote:
Safety is certainly an issue, but otherwise technologically inept people have managed to find safe ways to use gasoline and natural gas, so there's no reason to expect that they can't be trained to use hydrogen safely, with the use of coloring books and other basic training aids, of course.
I would have felt a lot better if you had remembered to use the joke-reply-option when you posted that! Please don't take this as arrogant, but I have a feeling you've never worked with Hydrogen, particularly when pressurized. This is not the same as handling propane for a bar-b-q grill. It doesn't liquify under pressure, to start, and the implication of that alone are considerable (viz-a-viz, propane, butane, etc). Being a person who's worked with a range of gasses from hydrogen, helium, carbon monoxide and phosphine through Uranium hexafluoride, let me assure you, only helium is harder to control for loss through leakage - but it doesn't blow the place apart. Hydrogen's range of forming what is known as an 'explosive mixture' with air is particularly broad, and under the right circumstances, can act as its own source of ignition. Even in a 30-cm diameter balloon, a hydrogen/oxygen mixture makes an awesome blast. More on safety: unlike natural gas, which is typically scented with methyl mercaptan (HSCH3 so you can smell a leak (at least for a little while), doing so with the hydrogen would deactivate the fuel cell (the volatile 'sulfides' are famous for this property). For a fuel cell, itt has to be the pure stuff: colorless, odorless, and explosive. As for solar power, one question I've always wondered about: where are we going to get the available sunlit surface area to cover with the cells? Have you (or anyone) considered the environmental impact of hiding rather large (and almost certainly nearly-contiguous) pieces of earth? Solar power is a great idea for a supplement, such as roof-top setups, but it's really quite limited. Furthermore, conversion of sunlight to electricity is limited to a maximum of ca. 20% for a perfect solar cell. To get better conversion rates you'll need to capture the energy as heat, use it to run turbines, etc. [Unless we find an alternative to solar cells using semiconductor band-gaps and escape the hyperbolic power relationship] Don't get me wrong - I'm definitely an alternative-energy person. Even when oil was cheap and CO2 wasn't a concern, oil was too precious to
All good points, and yes, I have worked with hydrogen and know its dangerous properties, but I still maintain that people can learn to handle it safely. If not, hydrogen can be joined with carbon as part of the energy storage process to make methane, and at least one company makes a fuel cell that runs on that instead of hydrogen. Such a process would also have the advantage of consuming excess CO2 and releasing O2 as a byproduct. Whether it can be done cheaply, I don't know - I'm no chemist. The limiting factor would be the ready availability of water for the electrolysis. All of the places that are ideal for solar collection are a bit short on the water supply, but that can be overcome with pipes and pumps. Living in the middle of one of the hottest deserts in the world, I am sure we can find room for plenty of solar collection facilities, and we could use the shade. :-D
Will Rogers never met me.
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PaulowniaK wrote:
Lithium is quite lethal on its own
Lithium treatment is used to treat mania in bipolar disorder.
Schenectady? What am I doing in Schenectady?
You two are speaking at cross purposes. Lithium metal is somewhat dangerous - reacting with water to produce hydrogen. The lithium treatments you speak of are lithium ions. [Li+] Analogy: Sodium is soft metal that burns and explodes on contact with water. Chlorine is a deadly corrosive gas. Sodium chloride, a compound where both of these are now in their ionic state (Na+ + Cl-) is the table salt we all need to survive. It is neither a metal or a gas, is crystalline soluble (reversibly) in water.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010