codingCulture?
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An interesting point. I think what has happened is more an opening up of the industry to increasingly less technical people. The "Scientists" are still around and coming along in the universities, as are the Engineers. It is more like a pyramid where there are increasingly few people from categories 3 --> 2 --> 1. (I Assume category 0 are mathematicians :)). I would say it is personal skill & enthusiasm and experience that defines which of these categories a dev falls into. If I had to, I'd label roughly: 1. Hacker [^]- in the proper sense (c.f. Cracker) 2. Developer or Programmer 3. Code Monkey. But even that is a continuum. Developers are the backbone of our industry, code monkeys are the people in Q&A asking "Do you haz teh codez" and hackers are explained in the jargon file. As for the Agile/formal methods thing, it's all a bit of a red-herring as an indicator. Formal methods have their place. I prefer Agile, but wouldn't countenance it under certain contexts, and there are some contexts where formal methods are probably inefficient. Your boss who "didn't like the idea" either had good reasons to reject it (in which case fair play) or was just resistant to change as it takes effort or is outside his/her comfort zone (in which case not). Nothing to do with being a scientist/engineer/designer.
norritt.icarus wrote:
The functional programming is preparing the first real strike in commercial systems
I remember my lecturer at uni saying much the same thing in 2000, and that he'd heard people saying the same thing through his career. Who knows, it might achieve mainstream acceptance (For certain things it is excellent and nice to play with).
Sort of a cross between Lawrence of Arabia and Dilbert.[^]
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A Dead ringer for Kate Winslett[^]Keith Barrow wrote:
I think what has happened is more an opening up of the industry to increasingly less technical people.
As the number of developers increases, the average I.Q. approaches 100. This is an inevitable consequence of I.Q. being normally distributed. You can see a version of the same thing in the original post; scientists->engineers->code monkeys in a horrible kind of reverse evolution. Somebody has to build the big operating systems, compilers, and servers that this years' code monkeys swing from as they build their webby startups. The scientists and the engineers are still here, in about the same numbers as in 1990. They are a small but important tail wagging what has become a very big dog. Hiring managers, who appear to have a bit less than 10 years experience on average, still want to find the engineers. But they have to sift through an awful lot of code monkeys to find them. 10 years from now, the entire industry may stratify into one industry of code monkeys, and a separately named and managed industry of engineers and scientists. We'll see.
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Coding culture has deteriorated since the 1970s. Before that, people programmed in whatever language suited the application or was available on their computers and didn't bitch about it. People could put the man on the moon and bring him back in the days when main memory didn't exceed 2 MB. Today, you wouldn't find a programmer willing to use any machine unless it has 1000 times that much memory (2 GB), if not more. And to do what? To (design and) play silly games on a computer! All the imbeciles (there is literally no other word for the code monkeys infesting the programming profession, though 'cretin' is a good substitute) are now jacking off to whether C++ or JAVA is the better language. The less talented think they are "writing code" when they write stuff in HTML and its derivatives. Most programming maintenance jobs were exported to India because these clowns couldn't be bothered with "legacy" applications. Then came Y2K which you all hyped up and sent more projects overseas. When you woke up, you found that programmers in India were happy to work on any application for cheaper rates than you. And you are wondering why you are all standing in lines before the soup kitchen! Tells everyone exactly how smart you all are. PS. Dickless and brainless univoters who can't face the facts I have mentioned here are welcome to downvote me.
I totally agree with the part about doing useless stuff. Exactly what you said - we put a man on the moon and today we make stupid tablets, phones, games etc. Where are our god damn space stations? Where is the Space Odyssey? Instead of thinking big today we lose ourselves in details and constraints, we let the criminals and weak minded rule the world! (disgusted)All of we monkeys on a rock in space thinking we are all so special and important...
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Coding is a very nice profession and activity. You exercise your brain, but be careful, you can get addicted to some routines, at this time you should put all these routines in some elegant and structured classes and create your own libraries. I believe in 3 kinds of coders: 1) Scientists 2) Engineers 3) Designers and you can put them in generations: 1) Scientists - 1950's ~ 1970's 2) Engineers - 1980's ~ middle 2000's 3) Designers - middle 2000's ~ now I'm talking about the culture around programming. 50 years ago the major class of programmers were scientists working on monstruous projects - military or incorporation. These scientists created the main languages after years researching the computacional paradigms. This scenario prepared the environment to engineers start working on code: the most clear, functional and consolidated softwares intended to be done. After the internet, the focus changed. We don't need all documentation, we need to be fast and cool. This is the culture now. The first time I've heard about XP was in 1999, and none of my bosses until 2008 ever heard about it, the one that knew it, didn't like the idea. And now the 'developer's culture' says to be agile, to use SCRUM and TDD, or you are obsolete. But I remember: '10 years ago they said the same about CMMI', and now the startups don't give a penny to cmmi. So there's a culture, to be the coolest geek, or to have the most brilliant startup. All the things keeps happening, some engineers kept a little bit scientists, some scientists kept researching mathematics. The functional programming is preparing the first real strike in commercial systems, the architectures are developing over patterns, approaches over methodologies. And there are semantic web and tons of bytes to process. Our mentors used to be scientists, our bosses engineers, and we are becoming designers to move fast and to spread computational power over computers and people.
Some on here seem to be a little bitter about the changes. I think it is only a natural progression. I resent the term code monkey being used to refer to current programmers (of which I am one) because I take great pride in the work that I do and I do work hard to understand how it works. Why should the young guys get punished or get disrespected just because we weren't alive in the 50's to create the stuff we use now? I believe it was Isaac Newton that said "I stand on the shoulders of giants." That is how I feel. I use technologies like .NET because of the great work that the "giants" that came before me did. Not everyone gets a chance to build a computer from scratch or to create an OS or programming language. I have worked hard to develop a deep understanding of how the CLR works (including memory management) and I have even taught myself some x86 assembly just so I understand how computers work. That does not make me a "code monkey." I simply use the tools afforded me in order to create value for the business, which by the way is why they pay me. There are those that don't care about the craft (and those make me just as angry) but that does not mean that every programmer from this generation (I am 26 yrs. old)is a "code Monkey."
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Keith Barrow wrote:
norritt.icarus wrote:
The functional programming is preparing the first real strike in commercial systems
I remember my lecturer at uni saying much the same thing in 2000, and that he'd heard people saying the same thing through his career. Who knows, it might achieve mainstream acceptance (For certain things it is excellent and nice to play with).
When FORTRAN was invented I believe the creator expressed the view that there would no longer need to be new languages - that was back in the 1950's...
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
GuyThiebaut wrote:
When FORTRAN was invented I believe the creator expressed the view that there would no longer need to be new languages
Actually, the creator was right in the sense that anything done now could be done in FORTRAN. Wait, why'd he go and do that? We had assembler language before that. :)
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GuyThiebaut wrote:
When FORTRAN was invented I believe the creator expressed the view that there would no longer need to be new languages
Actually, the creator was right in the sense that anything done now could be done in FORTRAN. Wait, why'd he go and do that? We had assembler language before that. :)
What has really developed in the 20 years I have been coding are the tools. As an example I have just started doing some development in Android - I can do this because the internet can provide me with tutorials and the IDE Ecipse allows me to compile, run and debug code without me knowing anything about the intricacies of these processes. As well as having programmed in Java for the first time five minutes previous to the run(I am reasonably experienced in C# which is what helped) - twenty years ago these tools to help you get from code to application in one step(i.e. clicking on the run button) just did not exist...
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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Some on here seem to be a little bitter about the changes. I think it is only a natural progression. I resent the term code monkey being used to refer to current programmers (of which I am one) because I take great pride in the work that I do and I do work hard to understand how it works. Why should the young guys get punished or get disrespected just because we weren't alive in the 50's to create the stuff we use now? I believe it was Isaac Newton that said "I stand on the shoulders of giants." That is how I feel. I use technologies like .NET because of the great work that the "giants" that came before me did. Not everyone gets a chance to build a computer from scratch or to create an OS or programming language. I have worked hard to develop a deep understanding of how the CLR works (including memory management) and I have even taught myself some x86 assembly just so I understand how computers work. That does not make me a "code monkey." I simply use the tools afforded me in order to create value for the business, which by the way is why they pay me. There are those that don't care about the craft (and those make me just as angry) but that does not mean that every programmer from this generation (I am 26 yrs. old)is a "code Monkey."
Hmm, probably true. The old cliche that a good programmer is worth 10 average ones still holds. More actually. But there is no substitute for coder equity. It just takes a decade or more in the seat to get that good. And you only have a few years in that capacity and it starts to go down hill too. I am 50, and half the coder I was 10 years ago. But my experience is a lot more important now. I know what not to do, and that makes a lot more difference than I ever thought it would. I know how to code so I can find the bugs. I know how to wire dependencies. I know how to figure out what other peoples code is like, how to fix it, and how to avoid using it when it is a really big ball of mud. And I know around 40 languages well enough to jump in and code. I can read pretty much anything including weird stuff like assembler, perl with regular expressions and APL, not just C++. Respect is earned, and some people in this biz have fewer social skills of a pissed off rhino. Bottom line as a coder you know what you can do, and eventually you dont have to respond to the trolls who love to bait. Mostly they are just lighting random social fuses to see who blows up.
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I totally agree with the part about doing useless stuff. Exactly what you said - we put a man on the moon and today we make stupid tablets, phones, games etc. Where are our god damn space stations? Where is the Space Odyssey? Instead of thinking big today we lose ourselves in details and constraints, we let the criminals and weak minded rule the world! (disgusted)All of we monkeys on a rock in space thinking we are all so special and important...
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Some on here seem to be a little bitter about the changes. I think it is only a natural progression. I resent the term code monkey being used to refer to current programmers (of which I am one) because I take great pride in the work that I do and I do work hard to understand how it works. Why should the young guys get punished or get disrespected just because we weren't alive in the 50's to create the stuff we use now? I believe it was Isaac Newton that said "I stand on the shoulders of giants." That is how I feel. I use technologies like .NET because of the great work that the "giants" that came before me did. Not everyone gets a chance to build a computer from scratch or to create an OS or programming language. I have worked hard to develop a deep understanding of how the CLR works (including memory management) and I have even taught myself some x86 assembly just so I understand how computers work. That does not make me a "code monkey." I simply use the tools afforded me in order to create value for the business, which by the way is why they pay me. There are those that don't care about the craft (and those make me just as angry) but that does not mean that every programmer from this generation (I am 26 yrs. old)is a "code Monkey."
At least IMO I think your own statements make it clear you are not a code monkey. We all stand on the shoulders of giants, even the builders of the first computers did not invent the vacuum tubes they used to build it. I don't read the original post as implying that being a coding monkey is a generational thing, more of an attitude towards the "craft" and whether or not you ignorantly chase fads or go a level deeper to understanding fundamentals.
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Coding is a very nice profession and activity. You exercise your brain, but be careful, you can get addicted to some routines, at this time you should put all these routines in some elegant and structured classes and create your own libraries. I believe in 3 kinds of coders: 1) Scientists 2) Engineers 3) Designers and you can put them in generations: 1) Scientists - 1950's ~ 1970's 2) Engineers - 1980's ~ middle 2000's 3) Designers - middle 2000's ~ now I'm talking about the culture around programming. 50 years ago the major class of programmers were scientists working on monstruous projects - military or incorporation. These scientists created the main languages after years researching the computacional paradigms. This scenario prepared the environment to engineers start working on code: the most clear, functional and consolidated softwares intended to be done. After the internet, the focus changed. We don't need all documentation, we need to be fast and cool. This is the culture now. The first time I've heard about XP was in 1999, and none of my bosses until 2008 ever heard about it, the one that knew it, didn't like the idea. And now the 'developer's culture' says to be agile, to use SCRUM and TDD, or you are obsolete. But I remember: '10 years ago they said the same about CMMI', and now the startups don't give a penny to cmmi. So there's a culture, to be the coolest geek, or to have the most brilliant startup. All the things keeps happening, some engineers kept a little bit scientists, some scientists kept researching mathematics. The functional programming is preparing the first real strike in commercial systems, the architectures are developing over patterns, approaches over methodologies. And there are semantic web and tons of bytes to process. Our mentors used to be scientists, our bosses engineers, and we are becoming designers to move fast and to spread computational power over computers and people.
norritt.icarus wrote:
50 years ago the major class of programmers were scientists working on monstruous projects
Not in any reasonable way of measuring that. Projects have grown in size since then. Certainly with a linear increase at least and a steep line at that.
norritt.icarus wrote:
We don't need all documentation, we need to be fast and cool.
They probably did create more documentation back then. But it is easier when the projects are much smaller. Note however that in my experience it wasn't specifically better.
norritt.icarus wrote:
'10 years ago they said the same about CMMI', and now the startups don't give a penny to cmmi. So there's a culture, to be the coolest geek, or to have the most brilliant startup.
Bandwagons are bright and shiny. Many people jump on when one goes by without understanding anything at all about exactly what is in the snake oil that the bandwagon sells. Best that one can hope is that they don't die and that they learn to actually look before leaping the next time (or at least after the 3rd/4th time.)
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Coding culture has deteriorated since the 1970s. Before that, people programmed in whatever language suited the application or was available on their computers and didn't bitch about it. People could put the man on the moon and bring him back in the days when main memory didn't exceed 2 MB. Today, you wouldn't find a programmer willing to use any machine unless it has 1000 times that much memory (2 GB), if not more. And to do what? To (design and) play silly games on a computer! All the imbeciles (there is literally no other word for the code monkeys infesting the programming profession, though 'cretin' is a good substitute) are now jacking off to whether C++ or JAVA is the better language. The less talented think they are "writing code" when they write stuff in HTML and its derivatives. Most programming maintenance jobs were exported to India because these clowns couldn't be bothered with "legacy" applications. Then came Y2K which you all hyped up and sent more projects overseas. When you woke up, you found that programmers in India were happy to work on any application for cheaper rates than you. And you are wondering why you are all standing in lines before the soup kitchen! Tells everyone exactly how smart you all are. PS. Dickless and brainless univoters who can't face the facts I have mentioned here are welcome to downvote me.
Vivic wrote:
Coding culture has deteriorated since the 1970s.
Before that, people programmed in whatever language suited the application or was available on their computers and didn't bitch about it.I am rather certain that for the most part they were often limited to one or at most 2/3 languages. Obviously if the machine only has one language then one doesn't complain. And of course there would be other factors such as the culture at that point did not encourage one to explore other languages anyways. One doesn't complain when one doesn't know there are options in the first place.
Vivic wrote:
People could put the man on the moon and bring him back in the days when main memory didn't exceed 2 MB. Today, you wouldn't find a programmer willing to use any machine unless it has 1000 times that much memory (2 GB), if not more.
Rather certain that embedded programmers get by with less.
Vivic wrote:
Most programming maintenance jobs were exported to India...
As stated that is wrong. Even more so in the context of suggesting that it occurred before Y2K.
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I totally agree with the part about doing useless stuff. Exactly what you said - we put a man on the moon and today we make stupid tablets, phones, games etc. Where are our god damn space stations? Where is the Space Odyssey? Instead of thinking big today we lose ourselves in details and constraints, we let the criminals and weak minded rule the world! (disgusted)All of we monkeys on a rock in space thinking we are all so special and important...
ddragos1.9021 wrote:
totally agree with the part about doing useless stuff.
Exactly what you said - we put a man on the moon and today we make stupid tablets, phones, games etc.
Where are our god damn space stations? Where is the Space Odyssey?
Instead of thinking big today we lose ourselves in details and constraints, we let the criminals and weak minded rule the world!Selective memory. People often ignore a predominant factor about landing on the moon - fear. The USSR put a rocket into the space above the US and in the era of the everyday threat of a nuclear war that made many people nervous. And something like the cellphone has made a huge impact on the everyday lives of most of the world whereas overcoming the very real problems that we now realize exist with attempting to live in space long term makes that goal much harder to achieve.
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At least IMO I think your own statements make it clear you are not a code monkey. We all stand on the shoulders of giants, even the builders of the first computers did not invent the vacuum tubes they used to build it. I don't read the original post as implying that being a coding monkey is a generational thing, more of an attitude towards the "craft" and whether or not you ignorantly chase fads or go a level deeper to understanding fundamentals.
I can definitely see that. To me, it seems incomprehensible to program using a tool or programming on a platform without understand what it does and how it does it. I am a .NET programmer so I took the time to understand the CLR. If I started working with Java, I would work to understand the JVM. I guess some are just in it for the paycheck. I do it because it genuinely interests me and I have enough professional pride to make sure what I make isn't a mess for the next person and that I really know what I am doing.
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I can definitely see that. To me, it seems incomprehensible to program using a tool or programming on a platform without understand what it does and how it does it. I am a .NET programmer so I took the time to understand the CLR. If I started working with Java, I would work to understand the JVM. I guess some are just in it for the paycheck. I do it because it genuinely interests me and I have enough professional pride to make sure what I make isn't a mess for the next person and that I really know what I am doing.
I think it is also important to explore a bit, and find a few areas where your skills can shine. Markets do change, and things do get better. Employers have a bad habit of looking at specific tools rather than you as a person, your ability and depth. Take the time to be familiar with even the old strange stuff. I was too proud to learn Cobol when I first started. The lack of breadth in that area didnt hurt for ever, but it did hinder me a bit at first. It is still a dreadful language but it might have paid a few bills for a year or two if I had it. These days Java and C++ are probably the things most often shunned. I can get by in either, but my strength is Delphi, which is all but dead. C# was invented by the same guy who designed Delphi, so the mindset is pretty much identical. But I find Microsoft documentation to be horrid. Delphi has a documentation tradition that makes it a dream to code in. You cant always get what you want. I havent done much Delphi in the last 15 years, and in fact I am working in architecture so much coding anything is pretty rare. When I do code for myself it is usually in Perl because it codes so fast, and it is second best for documentation standards. It is important to keep a strategic view of the market in mind when you investigate new things to do. Working at the same job for a decade or more is rare. Most employers dont have enough new ideas to sustain a programmer for a long time, and the leverage programming creates means you will be outnumbered hundreds or thousands to one in most enterprises. And you only really get better when you are forced to work with other programmers. One man shops of self taught programmers who have never team coded are seldom worth much. If you dont have the ability to get the experience at work, then try some open source coding. It is a real eye opener if you have never done much cooperative development. Code monkeys is what most employers hire off a resume. If you are hired by reputation, and have people knocking your door down begging for help with their problems then you are probably a great developer. Guard your reputation, but do take those challenges. I have rescued several multi-million dollar projects with shear willpower and great domain design. Several of them were thought to be dead before I arrived. Sometimes people put project leadership in place for the wrong reasons. When that happens and you are on the team, rescue the darn thing anyway, even if you are not the lead. It will become abundantly obvious in time that your contr