Apple philanthropy
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"Lie" seems a bit strong, as it was a public question for quite some time, and no statement often means "not really".
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| FoldWithUs! | sighist | WhoIncludes - Analyzing C++ include file hierarchypeterchen wrote:
and no statement often means "not really".
Depends on what you want to believe. I never claimed Jobs to be a saint. I just got tired of the "haters" claiming that he didn't do anything simply because he didn't start a very public foundation.
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Not that it will change the mind of "Jobs haters" but what the hell... Tim Cook exposes the lie that Steve Jobs ignored philanthropy[^]
It's called image-building.
However, the workers assembling iPhones, iPads and other devices often labor in harsh conditions, according to employees inside those plants, worker advocates and documents published by companies themselves. Problems are as varied as onerous work environments and serious — sometimes deadly — safety problems. Employees work excessive overtime, in some cases seven days a week, and live in crowded dorms. Some say they stand so long that their legs swell until they can hardly walk. Under-age workers have helped build Apple’s products, and the company’s suppliers have improperly disposed of hazardous waste and falsified records
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss:
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Not that it will change the mind of "Jobs haters" but what the hell... Tim Cook exposes the lie that Steve Jobs ignored philanthropy[^]
don't know about philanthropy, but I just been hit by a 700meg update from Apple, they should refund the bandwidth...
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It's called image-building.
However, the workers assembling iPhones, iPads and other devices often labor in harsh conditions, according to employees inside those plants, worker advocates and documents published by companies themselves. Problems are as varied as onerous work environments and serious — sometimes deadly — safety problems. Employees work excessive overtime, in some cases seven days a week, and live in crowded dorms. Some say they stand so long that their legs swell until they can hardly walk. Under-age workers have helped build Apple’s products, and the company’s suppliers have improperly disposed of hazardous waste and falsified records
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss:
Right... And all the Chinese that build Microsoft XBox 360's and Dell computers and HP computers and Lenovo computers and Motorola phones and Amazon Kindles (and ad naseum...) all work 4 hours a day for 3 days a week in luxury factories and get paid $100k a year. Get a clue.
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don't know about philanthropy, but I just been hit by a 700meg update from Apple, they should refund the bandwidth...
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Maximilien wrote:
I just been hit by a 700meg update from Apple, they should refund the bandwidth...
Got mine last night. If I recall it was my choice to download... no?
I let it update automatically. anyway, done deal, except it reset my keyboard layout from querty to azerty ... :~
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Not that it will change the mind of "Jobs haters" but what the hell... Tim Cook exposes the lie that Steve Jobs ignored philanthropy[^]
Mike Mullikin wrote:
"Jobs haters"
I don't believe there are many Jobs haters. To question his philanthropic zeal is not to hate the man. Just as having respect for Gates actions as a philanthropist does not immediately imply that one is a "Gates Lover".
Peter Wasser Art is making something out of nothing and selling it. Frank Zappa
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Not that it will change the mind of "Jobs haters" but what the hell... Tim Cook exposes the lie that Steve Jobs ignored philanthropy[^]
I clicked on the Clickety and it opened to a blank page titles "Apple Insider". So, does that mean you were being funny/oxymoronic about Steve Jobs' philanthropy or the great Internet decided that such a thing doesn't exist, or what? :laugh: I tried to reload the page and still get the same blank page.
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I let it update automatically. anyway, done deal, except it reset my keyboard layout from querty to azerty ... :~
Watched code never compiles.
Maximilien wrote:
querty
QWERTY.
"Real men drive manual transmission" - Rajesh.
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peterchen wrote:
and no statement often means "not really".
Depends on what you want to believe. I never claimed Jobs to be a saint. I just got tired of the "haters" claiming that he didn't do anything simply because he didn't start a very public foundation.
"lie" for me means you know what you tell is wrong. The comparisons Apple vs. MS at least mentioned in passing that nothing is known. Nothing against Stevieboy, just pissed off at cheapo journalism with catchy titles.
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| FoldWithUs! | sighist | WhoIncludes - Analyzing C++ include file hierarchy -
Not that it will change the mind of "Jobs haters" but what the hell... Tim Cook exposes the lie that Steve Jobs ignored philanthropy[^]
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I let it update automatically. anyway, done deal, except it reset my keyboard layout from querty to azerty ... :~
Watched code never compiles.
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Right... And all the Chinese that build Microsoft XBox 360's and Dell computers and HP computers and Lenovo computers and Motorola phones and Amazon Kindles (and ad naseum...) all work 4 hours a day for 3 days a week in luxury factories and get paid $100k a year. Get a clue.
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
Get a clue.
Why? I'm not that naieve to believe that other companies are any better, that's YOUR assumption. I merely dislike the image-building, the hypocritical and lying advertisement.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss:
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
I'm not that naieve to believe that other companies are any better, that's YOUR assumption.
No, it's the presumption of anyone reading the NY Times article that singles out Apple when in fact a huge percentage of all goods are manufactured in China. Electronics, textiles, plastic goods, etc... Conditions at ALL these factories are certainly lower than expected (required) in Western factories. That's how they make stuff so cheap and how we can buy stuff so cheap. 1. Singling out Apple is disingenuous at best. They (NYT) do it to be provocative and sell more papers. 2. Western society has used the 3rd world and developing countries for cheap labor for a long, long time. Kinda of Europe's "gift" to the world. 3. Cold but... why should I give damn about working conditions in China? The would be the Chinese's worry.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote:
I'm not that naieve to believe that other companies are any better, that's YOUR assumption.
No, it's the presumption of anyone reading the NY Times article that singles out Apple when in fact a huge percentage of all goods are manufactured in China. Electronics, textiles, plastic goods, etc... Conditions at ALL these factories are certainly lower than expected (required) in Western factories. That's how they make stuff so cheap and how we can buy stuff so cheap. 1. Singling out Apple is disingenuous at best. They (NYT) do it to be provocative and sell more papers. 2. Western society has used the 3rd world and developing countries for cheap labor for a long, long time. Kinda of Europe's "gift" to the world. 3. Cold but... why should I give damn about working conditions in China? The would be the Chinese's worry.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
No, it's the presumption of anyone reading the NY Times article that singles out Apple when in fact a huge percentage of all goods are manufactured in China. Electronics, textiles, plastic goods, etc... Conditions at ALL these factories are certainly lower than expected (required) in Western factories. That's how they make stuff so cheap and how we can buy stuff so cheap.
No, the NY Times merely reports the facts. That these facts are common in business isn't relevant; most of us know that, and most consumers don't think about that part when buying goods. It's merely a reminder of how the world works.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
1. Singling out Apple is disingenuous at best. They (NYT) do it to be provocative and sell more papers.
In that case, they'd be doing the same as the companies you're defending - trying to stay ahead at all costs. But no, I don't think that an abstract story on abuse would be read or understood much. Apple is something that people know, and in general, look up to as a "succesfull company".
Mike Mullikin wrote:
2. Western society has used the 3rd world and developing countries for cheap labor for a long, long time. Kinda of Europe's "gift" to the world.
Aw, spare me; this is something human, not something European. Other countries have had slaves to, other countries have known wars and genocide, even before "Europe" was born.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
3. Cold but... why should I give damn about working conditions in China? The would be the Chinese's worry.
You didn't - you were merely defending Apple, after I mentioned that they're not a philantropical institure. They're a company. (and a company is still not a person)
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss:
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
No, it's the presumption of anyone reading the NY Times article that singles out Apple when in fact a huge percentage of all goods are manufactured in China. Electronics, textiles, plastic goods, etc... Conditions at ALL these factories are certainly lower than expected (required) in Western factories. That's how they make stuff so cheap and how we can buy stuff so cheap.
No, the NY Times merely reports the facts. That these facts are common in business isn't relevant; most of us know that, and most consumers don't think about that part when buying goods. It's merely a reminder of how the world works.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
1. Singling out Apple is disingenuous at best. They (NYT) do it to be provocative and sell more papers.
In that case, they'd be doing the same as the companies you're defending - trying to stay ahead at all costs. But no, I don't think that an abstract story on abuse would be read or understood much. Apple is something that people know, and in general, look up to as a "succesfull company".
Mike Mullikin wrote:
2. Western society has used the 3rd world and developing countries for cheap labor for a long, long time. Kinda of Europe's "gift" to the world.
Aw, spare me; this is something human, not something European. Other countries have had slaves to, other countries have known wars and genocide, even before "Europe" was born.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
3. Cold but... why should I give damn about working conditions in China? The would be the Chinese's worry.
You didn't - you were merely defending Apple, after I mentioned that they're not a philantropical institure. They're a company. (and a company is still not a person)
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss:
This discussion is starting to look like SoapBox material... :~
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
That these facts are common in business isn't relevant
It's entirely relevant if the goal is to get Western consumers to think about the consequences of having cheap goods on the shelf.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Other countries have had slaves to, other countries have known wars and genocide, even before "Europe" was born.
I actually meant the European continent (being the cradle of Western society) rather than any political entity or lines on a map.
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This discussion is starting to look like SoapBox material... :~
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
That these facts are common in business isn't relevant
It's entirely relevant if the goal is to get Western consumers to think about the consequences of having cheap goods on the shelf.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Other countries have had slaves to, other countries have known wars and genocide, even before "Europe" was born.
I actually meant the European continent (being the cradle of Western society) rather than any political entity or lines on a map.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
This discussion is starting to look like SoapBox material...
You're right, maybe we should continue there.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
It's entirely relevant if the goal is to get Western consumers to think about the consequences of having cheap goods on the shelf.
The goal of the NYT is to attract readers, and indirect, advertisers. And no, people don't want to read about "industries", they already know that large corporations aren't very philantropical - Apple is something that people recognize and look up to.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
I actually meant the European continent (being the cradle of Western society) rather than any political entity or lines on a map.
Ah, King Xerxes was a true man of the people, just like Kahn. Even Mao and Stalin were friendly. Or are you suggesting that those were Europeans, ruling over foreign countries? The world isn't black and white, but it's represented in that way in the newspaper, simply because most readers cannot think beyond those two colors. Read "IBM", and no-one will give a shit. Now read "Apple", and you got the attention of a bag of fanboys.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss:
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peterchen wrote:
and no statement often means "not really".
Depends on what you want to believe. I never claimed Jobs to be a saint. I just got tired of the "haters" claiming that he didn't do anything simply because he didn't start a very public foundation.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
I just got tired of the "haters" claiming that he didn't do anything simply because he didn't start a very public foundation.
As noted I am still not clear exactly what Jobs did. What I got from the article is what Apple did. So could you point out the part where Jobs did something that cost a lot of money which was not financed by Apple?
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
I just got tired of the "haters" claiming that he didn't do anything simply because he didn't start a very public foundation.
As noted I am still not clear exactly what Jobs did. What I got from the article is what Apple did. So could you point out the part where Jobs did something that cost a lot of money which was not financed by Apple?
Ummm... he used Apple for philanthropy so the company got the "credit" rather than getting it personally. To use Gates and Buffet as examples - they developed HUGE bank accounts from their respective companies and have since set-up a charitable foundation in Gates' name. Excellent! Awesome! But in the end Microsoft and Berkshire Hathaway generated the money. Claiming that Jobs personally did nothing while CEO and COTB of Apple simply because he didn't first take the money himself and then give it away is silly.
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Ummm... he used Apple for philanthropy so the company got the "credit" rather than getting it personally. To use Gates and Buffet as examples - they developed HUGE bank accounts from their respective companies and have since set-up a charitable foundation in Gates' name. Excellent! Awesome! But in the end Microsoft and Berkshire Hathaway generated the money. Claiming that Jobs personally did nothing while CEO and COTB of Apple simply because he didn't first take the money himself and then give it away is silly.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Ummm... he used Apple for philanthropy so the company got the "credit" rather than getting it personally.
So in other words nothing.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
To use Gates and Buffet as examples - they developed HUGE bank accounts from their respective companies and have since set-up a charitable foundation in Gates' name. Excellent! Awesome! But in the end Microsoft and Berkshire Hathaway generated the money.
Specious. If I make a charitable donation from my checking account it originates from me. Not the company I work for. Gates/Buffet are using their money not that of the company. Jobs had his own money which he could have made some sort of personal effort.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Claiming that Jobs personally did nothing while CEO and COTB of Apple simply because he didn't first take the money himself and then give it away is silly.
Actually claiming that because a company makes charitable contributions that the sum total of those contributions should be attributed to the CEO is the silly part. And to be clear I wasn't attempting to bash Jobs but merely trying to elicit actual information about his personal charitable contributions which would in fact support the personal statement that he made in the article that you referred to. I can only suppose that there is no such charitable contributions because, presumably, the article would have referred to them. And you haven't attempted to provide and specific information in that regards either. And in terms of philanthropy Jobs might be better than Ellison but he most definitely is not comparable to Gates/Buffet.