Abortion
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You can not control that one may commit a crime. This is a fact. Inevitably a crime is committed but a society has no write to force a victim of a crime to make such a desicion. You imply that society has this right upon victims or anyone for that matter.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
No, nobody can directly control another's actions. I can say: Don't rape, don't commit crime. I can try to prevent it beforehand. I can teach what is moral, what is right and what is wrong. I can teach consequences. I can teach responsibility and being responsible.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
You imply that society has this right upon victims or anyone for that matter.
No, I'm not implying that at all. To abort is a personal decision and a solemn one. I certainly agree abortion should be legal in certain instances. What I am saying is none of this would be an issue at all if people would 1) first, do no harm to others, 2) be aware that your actions have consequences, 3) take responsibility for those actions, either beforehand or afterward. 4) if beforehand, don't have sex, if afterward, then take responsibility for the life you've created. 5) If you don't want to take responsibility for that life, then don't create it in the first place, otherwise man-up!
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
ahmed zahmed wrote:
Give me a break.
Why? You must have known this sort of thing was the likely outcome of your post.
ahmed zahmed wrote:
If men stop raping women and childre
It is a big if. In fact I'd say it's never going to happen as long as there are humans about. What should happen in the mean time?
Sort of a cross between Lawrence of Arabia and Dilbert.[^]
-Or-
A Dead ringer for Kate Winslett[^]I expected people to disagree. But I was asking to be given a break from distorting what I said.
Keith Barrow wrote:
In fact I'd say it's never going to happen
I don't agree. We certainly have to try.
Keith Barrow wrote:
What should happen in the mean time?
Like I've said elsewhere, I agree abortion should be legal in certain instances.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
But I'm not going to change it.
ahmed zahmed wrote:
The real answer for abortion is being morally responsible about sex in the first place
. Who defines this morality? God is not a viable answer: many people don't believe in god. Amongst those that do there is a wide range of opinion about what is moral and what is not. I would suggest not allowing women to choose to abort (within certain limits - obviously a 39th week abortion is pretty much murder) is immoral, because an unwanted baby and its parents could suffer more.
ahmed zahmed wrote:
People (men and women) need to understand that the choice is made at the time of intercourse that you will be responsible for the potential outcome: life. (Even if you're using contraception, a pregnancy is still possible. Contraception is not 100% foolproof.)
About the only thing I agree with.
ahmed zahmed wrote:
Don't have sex until you're ready and able to be responsible for the possible outcome.
As DD has pointed out, teenagers are biologically programmed to start having sex, this is also the peak of fertility. These two things coincide for a reason, evolution. You are fighting human nature on this one.
ahmed zahmed wrote:
Don't rape women (indeed, don't rape anyone).
Suddenly the sorts of people who will commit rape will stop doing it on somebody's say so? No, because they don't care, this will continue to happen unfortunately. And you want to block the women's ability to prevent the life-long reminder of probably the most traumatic thing she'll go through being born.
ahmed zahmed wrote:
Don't have sex with your children (just another form of rape).
If they are children, then by definition they are unable to conceive, so I'm not sure what you are getting at. If you mean don't commit incest or have sex with adolescents, then fine, but it has the same problems as raping women, it is only likely to continue and by getting rid of abortion you could force the victim into a lifelong reminder of what they went through.
ahmed zahmed wrote:
Don't have sex with someone you're not supposed to.
What does that mean? Who defines this? I assume by "someone you're meant to" you mean wife, if so, what about the many unma
LOL. I'll take your one vote as a +5. Nowhere in my post did I say abortion should not be available. Indeed, I think it should be available under certain circumstances. Rape being one of them. I believe I've answered your other points with my reply to DD.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
mark merrens wrote:
impractical
I disagree. It's the most practical of all. Difficult to convince and perform? Yes. Possible? Yes. Probable? No. Certainly not by all.
mark merrens wrote:
You just can't legislate for human behavior.
I get your point, even if it's not entirely true. (Otherwise, why laws against rape, murder, robbery, etc? Are those not human behaviors?) I may not be able to legislate, but speaking out and teaching is possible. Of course, people have to be willing to listen.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braunahmed zahmed wrote:
I disagree.
Really? And yet I suspect p[arents and teachers and government shave been trying for quite some time and they all still fail. (generalisation, of course; not everyone is a rabid sex maniac with no sense :-))
ahmed zahmed wrote:
I get your point, even if it's not entirely true.
Simply making laws has not stopped the behaviour; far from it! it's like the 'war' on drugs. Whilst I am against drugs and drug taking I realise the folly of figthing an unwinnable war. Better to turn it to our advantage by legalising and taxing it.
ahmed zahmed wrote:
I may not be able to legislate, but speaking out and teaching is possible. Of course, people have to be willing to listen.
Now you're talking like an evangelist: a human being somewhat lower on the hate scale than a lawyer. :-)
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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Give me a break. If men stop raping women and children, then unwanted pregnancy from the raping would stop. And so would lives being destroyed by rape stop. Do I think my saying "Stop Raping!" will make it all stop??? Of course not! But that is the real answer to abortion needed for pregnancy due to rape: stop raping!
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braunahmed zahmed wrote:
If men stop raping women and children, then unwanted pregnancy from the raping would stop
What a wonderful, idealistic, naive point of view. Of course the pregnancies would stop if the rape's stop. The rapist is the cause. A rapist clearly cares ONLY about the domination, submission of another human being. The act of rape is arguably the most selfish of any human behavior. It can't be legislated away. Laws exist to punish the behavior. It is a misfiring and a miswiring of the brain in these individuals that causes the problem. If a rapist were rational, they wouldn't do it in the first place. In the case of a woman being raped and becoming pregnant, you're dang right she deserves the dignity of having a piece of the beast that attacked her removed from her body. At the end of the day, the human race wouldn't even exist if sex wasn't a very strong, primal urge.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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No, nobody can directly control another's actions. I can say: Don't rape, don't commit crime. I can try to prevent it beforehand. I can teach what is moral, what is right and what is wrong. I can teach consequences. I can teach responsibility and being responsible.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
You imply that society has this right upon victims or anyone for that matter.
No, I'm not implying that at all. To abort is a personal decision and a solemn one. I certainly agree abortion should be legal in certain instances. What I am saying is none of this would be an issue at all if people would 1) first, do no harm to others, 2) be aware that your actions have consequences, 3) take responsibility for those actions, either beforehand or afterward. 4) if beforehand, don't have sex, if afterward, then take responsibility for the life you've created. 5) If you don't want to take responsibility for that life, then don't create it in the first place, otherwise man-up!
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braunahmed zahmed wrote:
I can teach what is moral, what is right and what is wrong. I can teach consequences. I can teach responsibility and being responsible.
I agree with you that for the general public you can teach your own version of morality and consequences, but as per my post above, a person who is compelled to behave in such a despicable way is unlikely to care about what you have to say if they don't care enough to think about their victims.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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ahmed zahmed wrote:
I disagree.
Really? And yet I suspect p[arents and teachers and government shave been trying for quite some time and they all still fail. (generalisation, of course; not everyone is a rabid sex maniac with no sense :-))
ahmed zahmed wrote:
I get your point, even if it's not entirely true.
Simply making laws has not stopped the behaviour; far from it! it's like the 'war' on drugs. Whilst I am against drugs and drug taking I realise the folly of figthing an unwinnable war. Better to turn it to our advantage by legalising and taxing it.
ahmed zahmed wrote:
I may not be able to legislate, but speaking out and teaching is possible. Of course, people have to be willing to listen.
Now you're talking like an evangelist: a human being somewhat lower on the hate scale than a lawyer. :-)
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
Yes really. You're saying it's unrealistic. I say it's eminently realistic. I have greater faith in human behavior (in general).
mark merrens wrote:
Simply making laws has not stopped the behaviour
True, but my point is that laws are made all the time governing human behavior. It's really more of a break this rule, here's the consequence sort of thing.
mark merrens wrote:
Now you're talking like an evangelist
I suppose, since evangelist is just another way of saying teacher. Of course, evangelism has a religious aspect to it. Parent is another way of saying teacher too.
mark merrens wrote:
a human being somewhat lower on the hate scale than a lawyer
That's really sad. Of course, given what some "evangelists" in certain circles have done (Catholic Priests, for example), it's understandable.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
ahmed zahmed wrote:
I disagree.
Really? And yet I suspect p[arents and teachers and government shave been trying for quite some time and they all still fail. (generalisation, of course; not everyone is a rabid sex maniac with no sense :-))
ahmed zahmed wrote:
I get your point, even if it's not entirely true.
Simply making laws has not stopped the behaviour; far from it! it's like the 'war' on drugs. Whilst I am against drugs and drug taking I realise the folly of figthing an unwinnable war. Better to turn it to our advantage by legalising and taxing it.
ahmed zahmed wrote:
I may not be able to legislate, but speaking out and teaching is possible. Of course, people have to be willing to listen.
Now you're talking like an evangelist: a human being somewhat lower on the hate scale than a lawyer. :-)
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
"Simply making laws has not stopped the behaviour." So, you really believe that if rape were legal it would not happen anymore than it does now? Of course those laws help. Legalizing drugs? Caffeine is the most widely used drug in the world. Imagine what would happen if you legalized all drugs.
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ahmed zahmed wrote:
If men stop raping women and children, then unwanted pregnancy from the raping would stop
What a wonderful, idealistic, naive point of view. Of course the pregnancies would stop if the rape's stop. The rapist is the cause. A rapist clearly cares ONLY about the domination, submission of another human being. The act of rape is arguably the most selfish of any human behavior. It can't be legislated away. Laws exist to punish the behavior. It is a misfiring and a miswiring of the brain in these individuals that causes the problem. If a rapist were rational, they wouldn't do it in the first place. In the case of a woman being raped and becoming pregnant, you're dang right she deserves the dignity of having a piece of the beast that attacked her removed from her body. At the end of the day, the human race wouldn't even exist if sex wasn't a very strong, primal urge.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
Marcus Kramer wrote:
What a wonderful, idealistic, naive point of view.
Idealistic, yes. Naive, no. Possible, yes. Probable, no. Thanks for agreeing with my point though.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
OK, so I have read some of your responces to peoples replies and I have a simple thing for you to understand.
ahmed zahmed wrote:
Don't rape women (indeed, don't rape anyone). Hence, no need for abortion because of rape.
Rapists do not have the abortion, the women impregnated with their rapists child does. They can not control being raped. Same goes with children. The child did not make the choice, so yes abortion is still needed here. I won't bother with the others because your responce to this tells me your 'real' name, and then you can be slayed.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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ahmed zahmed wrote:
I can teach what is moral, what is right and what is wrong. I can teach consequences. I can teach responsibility and being responsible.
I agree with you that for the general public you can teach your own version of morality and consequences, but as per my post above, a person who is compelled to behave in such a despicable way is unlikely to care about what you have to say if they don't care enough to think about their victims.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
Sadly, what you say is true. But I think most rapists were screwed-up by their parenting or other sad happenings in their lives. If we were to stop that, then most rapists wouldn't be rapists.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
ahmed zahmed wrote:
If men stop raping women and children, then unwanted pregnancy from the raping would stop
What a wonderful, idealistic, naive point of view. Of course the pregnancies would stop if the rape's stop. The rapist is the cause. A rapist clearly cares ONLY about the domination, submission of another human being. The act of rape is arguably the most selfish of any human behavior. It can't be legislated away. Laws exist to punish the behavior. It is a misfiring and a miswiring of the brain in these individuals that causes the problem. If a rapist were rational, they wouldn't do it in the first place. In the case of a woman being raped and becoming pregnant, you're dang right she deserves the dignity of having a piece of the beast that attacked her removed from her body. At the end of the day, the human race wouldn't even exist if sex wasn't a very strong, primal urge.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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The real answer for abortion is being morally responsible about sex in the first place. People (men and women) need to understand that the choice is made at the time of intercourse that you will be responsible for the potential outcome: life. (Even if you're using contraception, a pregnancy is still possible. Contraception is not 100% foolproof.) Don't have sex until you're ready and able to be responsible for the possible outcome. Hence, no need for abortion to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. Don't rape women (indeed, don't rape anyone). Hence, no need for abortion because of rape. Don't have sex with your children (just another form of rape). Hence, no need for abortion because of incest. Don't have sex with someone you're not supposed to. Hence, no need for abortion because of adultery or licentious behavior. That leaves only abortion for the life & health of the mother. A relatively rare instance. In many cases, the mother would rather give her life (my wife included). Do I believe this is possible, yes. Do I believe it probable, no. Still that's the only real, viable solution. Wanton killing of babies because you are irresponsible and life is inconvenient is not a moral choice, is not a moral stance.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
But I'm not going to change it.
ahmed zahmed wrote:
The real answer for abortion is being morally responsible about sex in the first place
. Who defines this morality? God is not a viable answer: many people don't believe in god. Amongst those that do there is a wide range of opinion about what is moral and what is not. I would suggest not allowing women to choose to abort (within certain limits - obviously a 39th week abortion is pretty much murder) is immoral, because an unwanted baby and its parents could suffer more.
ahmed zahmed wrote:
People (men and women) need to understand that the choice is made at the time of intercourse that you will be responsible for the potential outcome: life. (Even if you're using contraception, a pregnancy is still possible. Contraception is not 100% foolproof.)
About the only thing I agree with.
ahmed zahmed wrote:
Don't have sex until you're ready and able to be responsible for the possible outcome.
As DD has pointed out, teenagers are biologically programmed to start having sex, this is also the peak of fertility. These two things coincide for a reason, evolution. You are fighting human nature on this one.
ahmed zahmed wrote:
Don't rape women (indeed, don't rape anyone).
Suddenly the sorts of people who will commit rape will stop doing it on somebody's say so? No, because they don't care, this will continue to happen unfortunately. And you want to block the women's ability to prevent the life-long reminder of probably the most traumatic thing she'll go through being born.
ahmed zahmed wrote:
Don't have sex with your children (just another form of rape).
If they are children, then by definition they are unable to conceive, so I'm not sure what you are getting at. If you mean don't commit incest or have sex with adolescents, then fine, but it has the same problems as raping women, it is only likely to continue and by getting rid of abortion you could force the victim into a lifelong reminder of what they went through.
ahmed zahmed wrote:
Don't have sex with someone you're not supposed to.
What does that mean? Who defines this? I assume by "someone you're meant to" you mean wife, if so, what about the many unma
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We should also do away with jails and all legal systems. Crime can be solved by people beinh morally respondible .
_Josh_ wrote:
We should could also do away with jails and all legal systems. Crime can be solved by people being morally responsible .
FTFY!
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
The real answer for abortion is being morally responsible about sex in the first place. People (men and women) need to understand that the choice is made at the time of intercourse that you will be responsible for the potential outcome: life. (Even if you're using contraception, a pregnancy is still possible. Contraception is not 100% foolproof.) Don't have sex until you're ready and able to be responsible for the possible outcome. Hence, no need for abortion to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. Don't rape women (indeed, don't rape anyone). Hence, no need for abortion because of rape. Don't have sex with your children (just another form of rape). Hence, no need for abortion because of incest. Don't have sex with someone you're not supposed to. Hence, no need for abortion because of adultery or licentious behavior. That leaves only abortion for the life & health of the mother. A relatively rare instance. In many cases, the mother would rather give her life (my wife included). Do I believe this is possible, yes. Do I believe it probable, no. Still that's the only real, viable solution. Wanton killing of babies because you are irresponsible and life is inconvenient is not a moral choice, is not a moral stance.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von BraunI will go even further. I say let that unwanted children been taken from their irresponsible and immoral mothers (who will be obligated to give birth from the law) and raised from the society in a specialized facilities. Then they will have to work on behalf of that very society. The boys will become soldiers and the girls pole-dancers. The girls who don’t have looks for a pole-dancer and the boys who are too weak for soldiers will be forced to be software developers. Problem solved! Simples. On a more serious note, the human relationships are too complicated and dynamic to fit in the narrow frame you’re trying to put them. The society has to discourage the abortion in any possible reasonable way (financial stimulus, moral norms etc.), but never takes the choice from the parents, ever.
There is only one Vera Farmiga and Salma Hayek is her prophet! Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
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We should also do away with jails and all legal systems. Crime can be solved by people beinh morally respondible .
You are right. We wouldn't have a need for them if people were responsible. That is his point about abortion. He didn't say it should be done away with he explained how it could be done away with. Seriously, you and nearly everyone else who have responded have missed that point. He isn't saying get rid of abortion he is saying get rid of what causes the need for it. I think you all saw abortion and then started getting your liberal panties in a wad instead of actually reading what he said.
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You are right. We wouldn't have a need for them if people were responsible. That is his point about abortion. He didn't say it should be done away with he explained how it could be done away with. Seriously, you and nearly everyone else who have responded have missed that point. He isn't saying get rid of abortion he is saying get rid of what causes the need for it. I think you all saw abortion and then started getting your liberal panties in a wad instead of actually reading what he said.
ryanb31 wrote:
Seriously, you and nearly everyone else who have responded have missed that point. He isn't saying get rid of abortion he is saying get rid of what causes the need for it. I think you all saw abortion and then started getting your liberal panties in a wad instead of actually reading what he said.
And I'm saying get rid of gaols becuase they're also unnessasary. I think it is you that has missed my point. I didnt give an option on abortion, I only attemped to draw a parallel to point out the impracticle aspect of what was proposed. Why call me a liberal and be rude?
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_Josh_ wrote:
We should could also do away with jails and all legal systems. Crime can be solved by people being morally responsible .
FTFY!
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
ryanb31 wrote:
Seriously, you and nearly everyone else who have responded have missed that point. He isn't saying get rid of abortion he is saying get rid of what causes the need for it. I think you all saw abortion and then started getting your liberal panties in a wad instead of actually reading what he said.
And I'm saying get rid of gaols becuase they're also unnessasary. I think it is you that has missed my point. I didnt give an option on abortion, I only attemped to draw a parallel to point out the impracticle aspect of what was proposed. Why call me a liberal and be rude?
What I propose is that abortion would not be necessary (mostly) if people acted responsibly and unselfishly. The statement, even if impractical (as you opine), is true nonetheless. Your proposition is also true if people were indeed moral and responsible.
_Josh_ wrote:
Why call me a liberal and be rude
Liberal == rude? Wow, I didn't know. ;P :laugh:
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun