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Abortion

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  • T TheGreatAndPowerfulOz

    What I propose is that abortion would not be necessary (mostly) if people acted responsibly and unselfishly. The statement, even if impractical (as you opine), is true nonetheless. Your proposition is also true if people were indeed moral and responsible.

    _Josh_ wrote:

    Why call me a liberal and be rude

    Liberal == rude? Wow, I didn't know. ;P :laugh:

    If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
    You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun

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    Lost User
    wrote on last edited by
    #47

    ahmed zahmed wrote:

    Why call me a liberal and be rude

    the key word there is 'and' he called me a liberal AND he was being rude by suggesting my underpants where in a particular state causing discomfort. Truth is I'm not a liberal (either big of little L) and im not wearing underpants at the moment. Both our statements are true and both are worthless because neither will ever come to pass. Its nice to think that either might one day though.

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    • L Lost User

      But I think you'll agree that's also a little unlikely

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      TheGreatAndPowerfulOz
      wrote on last edited by
      #48

      Certainly, right now. But, ultimately, if we want to survive as a race: no.

      If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
      You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun

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      • Z ZurdoDev

        All you godless people ever say is god doesn't exist so that you can justify your actions. If you don't have to answer to anyone then you can't be wrong. How convenient. :-\ Just because you do not believe in Him, does not mean He does not exist.

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        fjdiewornncalwe
        wrote on last edited by
        #49

        ryanb31 wrote:

        All you godless people ever say is god doesn't exist so that you can justify your actions.

        And the religious conveniently justify their hideous behavior by their 2000+ year old books.

        ryanb31 wrote:

        Just because you do not believe in Him, does not mean He does not exist.

        Just because you say he exists, doesn't mean he does.

        I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.

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        • Z ZurdoDev

          All you godless people ever say is god doesn't exist so that you can justify your actions. If you don't have to answer to anyone then you can't be wrong. How convenient. :-\ Just because you do not believe in Him, does not mean He does not exist.

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          Keith Barrow
          wrote on last edited by
          #50

          ryanb31 wrote:

          All you godless people ever say is god doesn't exist so that you can justify your actions

          Actually, I didn't say god doesn't exist.You assumed that I said that. I said that God as a moral authority to justify restrictions on society was a non-starter, because many people do not believe. I don't need to justify anything, these are debating points.

          ryanb31 wrote:

          If you don't have to answer to anyone then you can't be wrong.

          Again, you make the assumption I'm an atheist. Even people who are have to answer to themselves. If the fear Hell/Jahanam is the only thing keeping you on a straight and narrow path, I'd argue you are less moral than someone who does lead a good life and doesn't have this fear. Oh and I'm often wrong.

          ryanb31 wrote:

          Just because you do not believe in Him, does not mean He does not exist.

          And just because you do, doesn't mean he does. See how that cuts both ways.

          Sort of a cross between Lawrence of Arabia and Dilbert.[^]
          -Or-
          A Dead ringer for Kate Winslett[^]

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          • F fjdiewornncalwe

            And you appear to intentionally be trying to miss the counter-points that people are providing. How about providing something intelligent to the conversation beyond the silly "Why are you missing the point" comments.

            I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.

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            ZurdoDev
            wrote on last edited by
            #51

            Enlighten us oh wise one. What is the point of me adding to something you don't even get?

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            • F fjdiewornncalwe

              ryanb31 wrote:

              All you godless people ever say is god doesn't exist so that you can justify your actions.

              And the religious conveniently justify their hideous behavior by their 2000+ year old books.

              ryanb31 wrote:

              Just because you do not believe in Him, does not mean He does not exist.

              Just because you say he exists, doesn't mean he does.

              I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.

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              ZurdoDev
              wrote on last edited by
              #52

              You're right. It is "hideous behavior" to try and prevent unwed sex, incest, rape, abuse, etc. How dare religious people do that. Thanks.

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              • Z ZurdoDev

                Impractical, maybe. But his post is getting a lot of negative criticism. < rant> Why not work on the problem instead of the symptom? Why not try and fix the real issues? This goes way beyond abortion but as a global society we all seem to try and fix the symptom instead of the problem. We do it in education, government, economy, unemployment, etc. We always want to blame something or somebody else. Let's put the responsibility back where it belongs, on the individual, and stop avoiding the actual issues. It's only impractical because not enough people support it. THAT is what makes it impractical. The principle alone is not impractical it is that not enough people care, and that is your (generally speaking) weakness, not a weakness in the principle. < /rant> Sorry, this isn't really just to you, in fact most of it is to the rest of the loons who are too lazy to do anything.

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                Lost User
                wrote on last edited by
                #53

                ryanb31 wrote:

                Sorry, this isn't really just to you, in fact most of it is to the rest of the loons who are too lazy to do anything.

                Yes let's hold hands and pray!

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                • K Keith Barrow

                  ryanb31 wrote:

                  All you godless people ever say is god doesn't exist so that you can justify your actions

                  Actually, I didn't say god doesn't exist.You assumed that I said that. I said that God as a moral authority to justify restrictions on society was a non-starter, because many people do not believe. I don't need to justify anything, these are debating points.

                  ryanb31 wrote:

                  If you don't have to answer to anyone then you can't be wrong.

                  Again, you make the assumption I'm an atheist. Even people who are have to answer to themselves. If the fear Hell/Jahanam is the only thing keeping you on a straight and narrow path, I'd argue you are less moral than someone who does lead a good life and doesn't have this fear. Oh and I'm often wrong.

                  ryanb31 wrote:

                  Just because you do not believe in Him, does not mean He does not exist.

                  And just because you do, doesn't mean he does. See how that cuts both ways.

                  Sort of a cross between Lawrence of Arabia and Dilbert.[^]
                  -Or-
                  A Dead ringer for Kate Winslett[^]

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                  ZurdoDev
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #54

                  Answering to yourself is the same as answering to no one.

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                  • L Lost User

                    ryanb31 wrote:

                    Sorry, this isn't really just to you, in fact most of it is to the rest of the loons who are too lazy to do anything.

                    Yes let's hold hands and pray!

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                    ZurdoDev
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #55

                    Don't knock something you do not understand.

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                    • L Lost User

                      ahmed zahmed wrote:

                      Why call me a liberal and be rude

                      the key word there is 'and' he called me a liberal AND he was being rude by suggesting my underpants where in a particular state causing discomfort. Truth is I'm not a liberal (either big of little L) and im not wearing underpants at the moment. Both our statements are true and both are worthless because neither will ever come to pass. Its nice to think that either might one day though.

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                      TheGreatAndPowerfulOz
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #56

                      Yeah, I got it. I was just making fun. Yes it is nice to think it might one day come to pass. If we don't try, then it never will.

                      If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
                      You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun

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                      • Z ZurdoDev

                        Don't knock something you do not understand.

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                        Lost User
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #57

                        I'm so sorry, it's the liberal in me:)

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                        • Z ZurdoDev

                          You're right. It is "hideous behavior" to try and prevent unwed sex, incest, rape, abuse, etc. How dare religious people do that. Thanks.

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                          fjdiewornncalwe
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #58

                          ryanb31 wrote:

                          You're right. It is "hideous behavior" to try and prevent unwed sex, incest, rape, abuse, etc. How dare religious people do that.

                          It is hideous, yes. How dare religious people do that! 1) According to the bible, rape is something god demands that his followers do when he wants them to. 2) According to the bible, the rape victim along with the rapist should be taken outside the city gates and stoned to death. 3) According to the bible, you can sell your daughter into slavery where she is to "please the man who bought her". 4) According to the bible, a rapist must marry the woman if he gets caught.

                          I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.

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                          • Z ZurdoDev

                            Answering to yourself is the same as answering to no one.

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                            fjdiewornncalwe
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #59

                            At least the one we answer to can be proven to exist.

                            I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.

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                            • S Single Step Debugger

                              I will go even further. I say let that unwanted children been taken from their irresponsible and immoral mothers (who will be obligated to give birth from the law) and raised from the society in a specialized facilities. Then they will have to work on behalf of that very society. The boys will become soldiers and the girls pole-dancers. The girls who don’t have looks for a pole-dancer and the boys who are too weak for soldiers will be forced to be software developers. Problem solved! Simples. On a more serious note, the human relationships are too complicated and dynamic to fit in the narrow frame you’re trying to put them. The society has to discourage the abortion in any possible reasonable way (financial stimulus, moral norms etc.), but never takes the choice from the parents, ever.

                              There is only one Vera Farmiga and Salma Hayek is her prophet! Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.

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                              shreekar
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #60

                              Deyan Georgiev wrote:

                              but never takes the choice from the parents, ever.

                              What about teen pregnancies - cases where the 'parents' are mentally and financially able to raise a child are quite rare. Of course, the other extreme to force abortions in such cases is just that - an extreme. But the problem of teenage pregnancies is one which really messes up lives of at least three people - parents and the child. Further complication is the lone mother issue. Sure, there are organisations trying to educate about bringing up children etc - but they are reactionary. I have not seen/heard aggressive programs/lectures about how to PREVENT teen pregnancies. As to the original post, the sentiment is correct, but humans have rarely understood appeal to morality en masse. Shreekar

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                              • Z ZurdoDev

                                Enlighten us oh wise one. What is the point of me adding to something you don't even get?

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                                fjdiewornncalwe
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #61

                                ryanb31 wrote:

                                What is the point of me adding to something you don't even get?

                                If I am missing the point then perhaps you could in your pansophical wisdom explain it to my obviously inferior mind so that I may share in your blissful countenance.

                                I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.

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                                • T TheGreatAndPowerfulOz

                                  Yes really. You're saying it's unrealistic. I say it's eminently realistic. I have greater faith in human behavior (in general).

                                  mark merrens wrote:

                                  Simply making laws has not stopped the behaviour

                                  True, but my point is that laws are made all the time governing human behavior. It's really more of a break this rule, here's the consequence sort of thing.

                                  mark merrens wrote:

                                  Now you're talking like an evangelist

                                  I suppose, since evangelist is just another way of saying teacher. Of course, evangelism has a religious aspect to it. Parent is another way of saying teacher too.

                                  mark merrens wrote:

                                  a human being somewhat lower on the hate scale than a lawyer

                                  That's really sad. Of course, given what some "evangelists" in certain circles have done (Catholic Priests, for example), it's understandable.

                                  If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
                                  You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun

                                  R Offline
                                  R Offline
                                  R Giskard Reventlov
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #62

                                  The last was a joke!

                                  "If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me

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                                  • T TheGreatAndPowerfulOz

                                    Sadly, what you say is true. But I think most rapists were screwed-up by their parenting or other sad happenings in their lives. If we were to stop that, then most rapists wouldn't be rapists.

                                    If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
                                    You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun

                                    L Offline
                                    L Offline
                                    Lost User
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #63

                                    But it can not be stopped. Even if there existed a plan to have it stopped someday, crime exists. Some people just do 'bad' things. The reason is irrelevant, and also very often a 'theory' or opinion. Saying "If we had no crime" is like saying "if everyone loved one another" or "if we had unlimited resources", or "if compilers output bacon" It is hypothetical and will not likely occur. I am fine with hypothetical context's, but now you are assuming that you have eliminated the need for something because of your hypothetical context (no rape etc.). The major problem with that argument is multiple crimes removed hypothetically are not all ecomposing for ones reason to have an abortion. Do not pretend you have the thoughts of every woman that has had an abortion in your mind.

                                    Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.

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                                    • Z ZurdoDev

                                      "Simply making laws has not stopped the behaviour." So, you really believe that if rape were legal it would not happen anymore than it does now? Of course those laws help. Legalizing drugs? Caffeine is the most widely used drug in the world. Imagine what would happen if you legalized all drugs.

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                                      R Giskard Reventlov
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #64

                                      Blimey! Way to read what you want to read from what I said!

                                      ryanb31 wrote:

                                      So, you really believe that if rape were legal it would not happen anymore than it does now?

                                      Show me where I said that!

                                      ryanb31 wrote:

                                      Legalizing drugs?

                                      I can't abide people that split hairs and are deliberately pedantic to make a point at the expense of the original point. Not surprised you got downvoted for it though not by me.

                                      "If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me

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                                      • R R Giskard Reventlov

                                        The last was a joke!

                                        "If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me

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                                        TheGreatAndPowerfulOz
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #65

                                        oops, ok. my bad.

                                        If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
                                        You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun

                                        1 Reply Last reply
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                                        • L Lost User

                                          But it can not be stopped. Even if there existed a plan to have it stopped someday, crime exists. Some people just do 'bad' things. The reason is irrelevant, and also very often a 'theory' or opinion. Saying "If we had no crime" is like saying "if everyone loved one another" or "if we had unlimited resources", or "if compilers output bacon" It is hypothetical and will not likely occur. I am fine with hypothetical context's, but now you are assuming that you have eliminated the need for something because of your hypothetical context (no rape etc.). The major problem with that argument is multiple crimes removed hypothetically are not all ecomposing for ones reason to have an abortion. Do not pretend you have the thoughts of every woman that has had an abortion in your mind.

                                          Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.

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                                          TheGreatAndPowerfulOz
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #66

                                          Regardless, my point is to reduce abortions, reduce the need. To reduce the need, change peoples behavior. To change peoples behavior, teach them to be responsible and unselfish. The reality is that most abortions are not because of rape, or incest, or life of the mother. Most abortions are for birth control[^] reasons[^]. While we may not be able to significantly impact the instances of rape, we can and should try remove the need for "abortions of convenience".

                                          Collin Jasnoch wrote:

                                          Do not pretend you have the thoughts of every woman that has had an abortion in your mind.

                                          Certainly not! I don't have the thoughts of even a single woman one in my mind. I'm grateful that I'll never have to be in such a circumstance. My heart goes out to those who find themselves in such a situation. [Edited to add source for reasons for abortions]

                                          If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
                                          You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun

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