Greek Mythology
-
(This is not a political comment, merely a view that the Greek People are in deep trouble) The bailout has been agreed. (Well no, not really, it needs ratification in all the EZ National Parliaments and there are still one or two who are wobbling). This will help the Greeks get back to normal. (If by Normal you mean 18% reduction in GDP, 30% unemployment, breakdown in law and order, failing health service, rise of extremists politics and permanent imposition of oversite by the EU (Thus making Greece the first EU Colony)). The Greek Debt position has been improved remarkably. (Except that instead of having €286 Billion in Debts it now has €190 Billion in debts, so still deep in the crapper). This will see an end to the Greek Crisis (No, it merely means the French and German banks will get back some of their investments, the Greek People will not see a penny of this money). Normality will be restored to the Banking System. (Ha Ha Ha - So much of Greek debt will now be held in official repositories, all of who will have preferential treatment as creditors, that there will not be a private sector investor willing to touch it with a barge pole, knowing they would be last in the queue of creditors.) Greece has to enshrine this loan guarantee into its Constitution so that any future party coming to power could not just say "Elephant off you Sunshines" to the EU! This will cause so much ill feeling that the Greek Army would be called onto the street. (Even the Greek police have issued a Arrest Warrant for any EU, IMF or ECB official who deigns to walk the streets). The poor Greeks were lied to, cajouled and bribed into the Euro, and now they are paying the price. Why are the Politicos who did this not swinging from the lamp posts of Athens? Because almost to a man they fled the country, taking €Millions with them. A Sad Day, and I hope that any Greek CPians keep well and safe over the next 3 months (Elections due with the hard left parties looking good for the win).
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live
-
Dalek Dave wrote:
Greece has to enshrine this loan guarantee into its Constitution
Interesting given that the loan agreement from the first one 2 years ago to this one now is in each and every clause illegal according to the Constitution. Which means the so called Greek politicians have overlooked it. Who says it won't happen for the guarantee?
Dalek Dave wrote:
This will cause so much ill feeling that the Greek Army would be called onto the street.
If this happens then the so called Greek politicians will hang from the lamp posts and the riot police will be used as wood for the fires to burn them. More likely German police will come over to beat Greeks to death... which will bring the army to the streets and a new resistance will rice given that Germans (as in Nazis but still Ggermans) abusing Greeks is a very vivid image in that country.
Dalek Dave wrote:
Why are the Politicos who did this not swinging from the lamp posts of Athens?
Greek law states that every criminal offense made by an MP during his term is scratched off after said PM is not in office anymore. So they get the bribe cash Germans and French gave them when they where betraying their country and flee back to their patrons. Dave you did it again. Now I am flaming :mad:. Was it for this that my grandfather was injured twice in the 1940 war against the Italian fascists? Was it for this his family died in Auschwitz (Elephant off Goodwin and your law)? For the Germans to come back and finish the job? German and French CPians don't tell it to me. Go tell it to Merkozi.
Alberto Bar-Noy --------------- “The city’s central computer told you? R2D2, you know better than to trust a strange computer!” (C3PO)
Truth hurts univoters. Deal with it.
Alberto Bar-Noy --------------- “The city’s central computer told you? R2D2, you know better than to trust a strange computer!” (C3PO)
-
(This is not a political comment, merely a view that the Greek People are in deep trouble) The bailout has been agreed. (Well no, not really, it needs ratification in all the EZ National Parliaments and there are still one or two who are wobbling). This will help the Greeks get back to normal. (If by Normal you mean 18% reduction in GDP, 30% unemployment, breakdown in law and order, failing health service, rise of extremists politics and permanent imposition of oversite by the EU (Thus making Greece the first EU Colony)). The Greek Debt position has been improved remarkably. (Except that instead of having €286 Billion in Debts it now has €190 Billion in debts, so still deep in the crapper). This will see an end to the Greek Crisis (No, it merely means the French and German banks will get back some of their investments, the Greek People will not see a penny of this money). Normality will be restored to the Banking System. (Ha Ha Ha - So much of Greek debt will now be held in official repositories, all of who will have preferential treatment as creditors, that there will not be a private sector investor willing to touch it with a barge pole, knowing they would be last in the queue of creditors.) Greece has to enshrine this loan guarantee into its Constitution so that any future party coming to power could not just say "Elephant off you Sunshines" to the EU! This will cause so much ill feeling that the Greek Army would be called onto the street. (Even the Greek police have issued a Arrest Warrant for any EU, IMF or ECB official who deigns to walk the streets). The poor Greeks were lied to, cajouled and bribed into the Euro, and now they are paying the price. Why are the Politicos who did this not swinging from the lamp posts of Athens? Because almost to a man they fled the country, taking €Millions with them. A Sad Day, and I hope that any Greek CPians keep well and safe over the next 3 months (Elections due with the hard left parties looking good for the win).
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live
Spending more than you make is always a financial disaster. There is no one to blame but the populace at large for this. Nearly every country in the world is guilty and the second people start realizing that the entire system is an illusion there will be a financial correction (not a melt-down, because that implies there was something solid there before). The only real solution for the Greek problem is the same solution every country will face, either invade and enjoy the spoils of conquest or only spend what you can force your citizens to pay in taxes, oh, and only print money that is worth something. Not that it means anything coming from a U.S. citizen, over here if you are big company you get a billion dollar bailout with no personal guarantees but if you want to start a small business you have to put down 80% and have your house as collateral for the loan.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
-
(This is not a political comment, merely a view that the Greek People are in deep trouble) The bailout has been agreed. (Well no, not really, it needs ratification in all the EZ National Parliaments and there are still one or two who are wobbling). This will help the Greeks get back to normal. (If by Normal you mean 18% reduction in GDP, 30% unemployment, breakdown in law and order, failing health service, rise of extremists politics and permanent imposition of oversite by the EU (Thus making Greece the first EU Colony)). The Greek Debt position has been improved remarkably. (Except that instead of having €286 Billion in Debts it now has €190 Billion in debts, so still deep in the crapper). This will see an end to the Greek Crisis (No, it merely means the French and German banks will get back some of their investments, the Greek People will not see a penny of this money). Normality will be restored to the Banking System. (Ha Ha Ha - So much of Greek debt will now be held in official repositories, all of who will have preferential treatment as creditors, that there will not be a private sector investor willing to touch it with a barge pole, knowing they would be last in the queue of creditors.) Greece has to enshrine this loan guarantee into its Constitution so that any future party coming to power could not just say "Elephant off you Sunshines" to the EU! This will cause so much ill feeling that the Greek Army would be called onto the street. (Even the Greek police have issued a Arrest Warrant for any EU, IMF or ECB official who deigns to walk the streets). The poor Greeks were lied to, cajouled and bribed into the Euro, and now they are paying the price. Why are the Politicos who did this not swinging from the lamp posts of Athens? Because almost to a man they fled the country, taking €Millions with them. A Sad Day, and I hope that any Greek CPians keep well and safe over the next 3 months (Elections due with the hard left parties looking good for the win).
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live
A reasonable summation of the situation though I hope that it doesn't descend into anarchy as that will quickly spread to Italy, Spain, etc. In any case, if the EU are struggling to 'help' Greece, how will they cope if any of the other PIIGS start to go under? (Italy, Spain???) Quite worrying: is not looking good. I would have thought it would have been better to cut Greece adrift than to keep plowing good money after bad. Oh wait, it's not their money so they don't care!
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
-
A reasonable summation of the situation though I hope that it doesn't descend into anarchy as that will quickly spread to Italy, Spain, etc. In any case, if the EU are struggling to 'help' Greece, how will they cope if any of the other PIIGS start to go under? (Italy, Spain???) Quite worrying: is not looking good. I would have thought it would have been better to cut Greece adrift than to keep plowing good money after bad. Oh wait, it's not their money so they don't care!
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
mark merrens wrote:
it's not their money so they don't care
The nub of the problem We should make the politicians legally responsible for their policies!
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live
-
(This is not a political comment, merely a view that the Greek People are in deep trouble) The bailout has been agreed. (Well no, not really, it needs ratification in all the EZ National Parliaments and there are still one or two who are wobbling). This will help the Greeks get back to normal. (If by Normal you mean 18% reduction in GDP, 30% unemployment, breakdown in law and order, failing health service, rise of extremists politics and permanent imposition of oversite by the EU (Thus making Greece the first EU Colony)). The Greek Debt position has been improved remarkably. (Except that instead of having €286 Billion in Debts it now has €190 Billion in debts, so still deep in the crapper). This will see an end to the Greek Crisis (No, it merely means the French and German banks will get back some of their investments, the Greek People will not see a penny of this money). Normality will be restored to the Banking System. (Ha Ha Ha - So much of Greek debt will now be held in official repositories, all of who will have preferential treatment as creditors, that there will not be a private sector investor willing to touch it with a barge pole, knowing they would be last in the queue of creditors.) Greece has to enshrine this loan guarantee into its Constitution so that any future party coming to power could not just say "Elephant off you Sunshines" to the EU! This will cause so much ill feeling that the Greek Army would be called onto the street. (Even the Greek police have issued a Arrest Warrant for any EU, IMF or ECB official who deigns to walk the streets). The poor Greeks were lied to, cajouled and bribed into the Euro, and now they are paying the price. Why are the Politicos who did this not swinging from the lamp posts of Athens? Because almost to a man they fled the country, taking €Millions with them. A Sad Day, and I hope that any Greek CPians keep well and safe over the next 3 months (Elections due with the hard left parties looking good for the win).
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live
Dalek Dave wrote:
The poor Greeks were lied to, cajouled and bribed into the Euro, and now they are paying the price.
Well, if you're speaking of the Greek people, yes, but if you're speaking of the Greek gov't, they lied to the EU. Marc
My Blog
The Relationship Oriented Programming IDE
Melody's Amazon Herb Site -
Dalek Dave wrote:
The poor Greeks were lied to, cajouled and bribed into the Euro, and now they are paying the price.
Well, if you're speaking of the Greek people, yes, but if you're speaking of the Greek gov't, they lied to the EU. Marc
My Blog
The Relationship Oriented Programming IDE
Melody's Amazon Herb SiteI have no sympathy with governments. We all know they are a bunch of lying crooks.
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live
-
I have no sympathy with governments. We all know they are a bunch of lying crooks.
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live
-
You still hoping to get elected? ;P
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
Yep :) Still working hard in the Local Group so that I get a better Ward (ie more winnable) next time round. There is a lot of butt-kissing and chumming up involved you know!
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live
-
Dalek Dave wrote:
The poor Greeks were lied to, cajouled and bribed into the Euro, and now they are paying the price.
Well, if you're speaking of the Greek people, yes, but if you're speaking of the Greek gov't, they lied to the EU. Marc
My Blog
The Relationship Oriented Programming IDE
Melody's Amazon Herb SiteThey lied to everyone. And now they are going to elections to get the people's votes... and trust. I wonder how this will come out.
Alberto Bar-Noy --------------- “The city’s central computer told you? R2D2, you know better than to trust a strange computer!” (C3PO)
-
mark merrens wrote:
it's not their money so they don't care
The nub of the problem We should make the politicians legally responsible for their policies!
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live
Dalek Dave wrote:
We should make the politicians legally responsible for their policies!
They should also be held legally accountable for manifesto promises which they make to get elected and then ignore. But, I voted for you becuase of that promise... Sorry, can't be done, the situation has changed in the 3 days we've been in power... All politicians are liars: so why do we keep believing them when they say they're going to do such-and-such?
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
-
Dalek Dave wrote:
We should make the politicians legally responsible for their policies!
They should also be held legally accountable for manifesto promises which they make to get elected and then ignore. But, I voted for you becuase of that promise... Sorry, can't be done, the situation has changed in the 3 days we've been in power... All politicians are liars: so why do we keep believing them when they say they're going to do such-and-such?
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
Here is an expression that is told in Israel by politicians seriously and by the people cynically: What one can see from here (the chair of PM) cannot be seen from there (opposition)... It resembles the PaSoK last election manifesto "There is money!" and when they got to be gov: "Where is the money?"
Alberto Bar-Noy --------------- “The city’s central computer told you? R2D2, you know better than to trust a strange computer!” (C3PO)
-
Dalek Dave wrote:
Greece has to enshrine this loan guarantee into its Constitution
Interesting given that the loan agreement from the first one 2 years ago to this one now is in each and every clause illegal according to the Constitution. Which means the so called Greek politicians have overlooked it. Who says it won't happen for the guarantee?
Dalek Dave wrote:
This will cause so much ill feeling that the Greek Army would be called onto the street.
If this happens then the so called Greek politicians will hang from the lamp posts and the riot police will be used as wood for the fires to burn them. More likely German police will come over to beat Greeks to death... which will bring the army to the streets and a new resistance will rice given that Germans (as in Nazis but still Ggermans) abusing Greeks is a very vivid image in that country.
Dalek Dave wrote:
Why are the Politicos who did this not swinging from the lamp posts of Athens?
Greek law states that every criminal offense made by an MP during his term is scratched off after said PM is not in office anymore. So they get the bribe cash Germans and French gave them when they where betraying their country and flee back to their patrons. Dave you did it again. Now I am flaming :mad:. Was it for this that my grandfather was injured twice in the 1940 war against the Italian fascists? Was it for this his family died in Auschwitz (Elephant off Goodwin and your law)? For the Germans to come back and finish the job? German and French CPians don't tell it to me. Go tell it to Merkozi.
Alberto Bar-Noy --------------- “The city’s central computer told you? R2D2, you know better than to trust a strange computer!” (C3PO)
No, but they didn't sacrifice their lives for the politicians to throw money left and right to random countries while collecting massive bribes and digging a bigger and bigger hole. They didn't sacrifice their lives for said politicians to cover all their splurging from their own people and from the EU and erase any trace of money trouble from the bookkeeping. They didn't sacrifice their lives for the people to gladly turn a blind eye to all the corruption of their leaders due to being well paid from money nobody actually had and needed to be borrowed. They didn't sacrifice their lives for all the institutions that should have kept an eye on the tax evasion, illegal stuff, to listen to the leaders saying: ah, let them be, we're stealing enough ourselves. What's happening now eventually had to happen. Sure, if it wasn't the euro the government would have put in some inflation, well, a bit more, economy would have still gone down, people would have felt it but not by lowered pay, just higher prices and in a more controlled way. No riots, no anti-EU sentiments. And I assume everyone in the country knew that there was mass tax evasion, that the leaders were lying, and accepted for the big salaries. And kept electing them. Well, they're chosen by the Greek, not by someone else.
-
The problem is that the European and the Greek politicos are very short sighted about this issue. They are struggling to fix for a day or month a problem which has been developing from decades thus making the things even worse. Gradual reforms in Greece towards less government expends on military and administration, slightly less salaries, a little longer working hours, and the EU helping with the huge debt interests with either paying them or removing them. This is the path, step by step with a less shock for Greek people and creditors and the Euro. There is no magical solution, ohi, nada, zip!
There is only one Vera Farmiga and Salma Hayek is her prophet! Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
They needed to give up the Euro, at this point there's nothing they can do to get more money, being tied to the Euro. That is without going through Germany and France. Because they're so tied to the Euro they couldn't fend off the vultures when it started to smell.
-
No, but they didn't sacrifice their lives for the politicians to throw money left and right to random countries while collecting massive bribes and digging a bigger and bigger hole. They didn't sacrifice their lives for said politicians to cover all their splurging from their own people and from the EU and erase any trace of money trouble from the bookkeeping. They didn't sacrifice their lives for the people to gladly turn a blind eye to all the corruption of their leaders due to being well paid from money nobody actually had and needed to be borrowed. They didn't sacrifice their lives for all the institutions that should have kept an eye on the tax evasion, illegal stuff, to listen to the leaders saying: ah, let them be, we're stealing enough ourselves. What's happening now eventually had to happen. Sure, if it wasn't the euro the government would have put in some inflation, well, a bit more, economy would have still gone down, people would have felt it but not by lowered pay, just higher prices and in a more controlled way. No riots, no anti-EU sentiments. And I assume everyone in the country knew that there was mass tax evasion, that the leaders were lying, and accepted for the big salaries. And kept electing them. Well, they're chosen by the Greek, not by someone else.
True on all counts.
Alberto Bar-Noy --------------- “The city’s central computer told you? R2D2, you know better than to trust a strange computer!” (C3PO)
-
(This is not a political comment, merely a view that the Greek People are in deep trouble) The bailout has been agreed. (Well no, not really, it needs ratification in all the EZ National Parliaments and there are still one or two who are wobbling). This will help the Greeks get back to normal. (If by Normal you mean 18% reduction in GDP, 30% unemployment, breakdown in law and order, failing health service, rise of extremists politics and permanent imposition of oversite by the EU (Thus making Greece the first EU Colony)). The Greek Debt position has been improved remarkably. (Except that instead of having €286 Billion in Debts it now has €190 Billion in debts, so still deep in the crapper). This will see an end to the Greek Crisis (No, it merely means the French and German banks will get back some of their investments, the Greek People will not see a penny of this money). Normality will be restored to the Banking System. (Ha Ha Ha - So much of Greek debt will now be held in official repositories, all of who will have preferential treatment as creditors, that there will not be a private sector investor willing to touch it with a barge pole, knowing they would be last in the queue of creditors.) Greece has to enshrine this loan guarantee into its Constitution so that any future party coming to power could not just say "Elephant off you Sunshines" to the EU! This will cause so much ill feeling that the Greek Army would be called onto the street. (Even the Greek police have issued a Arrest Warrant for any EU, IMF or ECB official who deigns to walk the streets). The poor Greeks were lied to, cajouled and bribed into the Euro, and now they are paying the price. Why are the Politicos who did this not swinging from the lamp posts of Athens? Because almost to a man they fled the country, taking €Millions with them. A Sad Day, and I hope that any Greek CPians keep well and safe over the next 3 months (Elections due with the hard left parties looking good for the win).
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live
What I find most disturbing as an American is that our government won't take any real steps to prevent the same thing from happening here. I've seen other European countries taking preemptive steps to head off a similar crisis in their country even though it's not popular with a lot of people but in this country we keep acting like we haven't been warned. The Democrats won't agree to anything other than superficial spending cuts and the Republicans won't agree to any tax increases at all. The USA's debt to GDP is almost as bad as Greece, I guess the creditor just trust us more to pay our bills. But I don't think it will be many years before the same thing happens here.
-
What I find most disturbing as an American is that our government won't take any real steps to prevent the same thing from happening here. I've seen other European countries taking preemptive steps to head off a similar crisis in their country even though it's not popular with a lot of people but in this country we keep acting like we haven't been warned. The Democrats won't agree to anything other than superficial spending cuts and the Republicans won't agree to any tax increases at all. The USA's debt to GDP is almost as bad as Greece, I guess the creditor just trust us more to pay our bills. But I don't think it will be many years before the same thing happens here.
You are correct. But the answer isn't more taxes. You could tax everyone at 100% and there wouldn't be enough money to pay the bills. We need to cut spending. We have 10 years at most.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
Greece is collapsing, the Iranians are getting aggressive, and Rome is in disarray. Welcome to 430 BC.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
Those who study history are doomed to watch others repeat it. You have only yourself to blame for understanding this facet of the problem. :)
_____________________________ Give a man a mug, he drinks for a day. Teach a man to mug... The difference between an ostrich and the average voter is where they stick their heads.
-
Spending more than you make is always a financial disaster. There is no one to blame but the populace at large for this. Nearly every country in the world is guilty and the second people start realizing that the entire system is an illusion there will be a financial correction (not a melt-down, because that implies there was something solid there before). The only real solution for the Greek problem is the same solution every country will face, either invade and enjoy the spoils of conquest or only spend what you can force your citizens to pay in taxes, oh, and only print money that is worth something. Not that it means anything coming from a U.S. citizen, over here if you are big company you get a billion dollar bailout with no personal guarantees but if you want to start a small business you have to put down 80% and have your house as collateral for the loan.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
either invade and enjoy the spoils of conquest
This might not be much of an option in countries that aren't filled with untapped resources. Invade a country that runs on a service economy and what do you get? I think I want to think about this for a while.
_____________________________ Give a man a mug, he drinks for a day. Teach a man to mug... The difference between an ostrich and the average voter is where they stick their heads.
-
To be fair, isn't another reason Greece is in trouble that a lot of the ultra wealthy don't pay their proper amount of taxes? Doctors who only take cash as payment, drive around in expensive sports cars, and then claim they only make fifteen or twenty thousand a year. All it takes is paying the right person the proper amount of money.
So the politicians can spend as much as they want, and there should be no limit to how much people pay in taxes?
The difficult we do right away... ...the impossible takes slightly longer.
