Weenies
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Except that's the road to hell paved with good intentions, or not so good intentions, assuming you are talking about mandatory certification/licensing, like doctor licenses... The main purpose of such licenses in practice will be used to control, not professionally quality, but competition. It will also raise the financially bar for new and talented people to enter the profession which in turn will stall progress of technology we have today. The exact reason we have wide variety of technologies and such a progress in our profession is because it is unregulated and it allows people to enter the market easily and try new things. So if you want formal certification when you hire, why collage/university degree is not enough for you? What is going to stop people from falsely claiming that they have licenses, but won't prevent them from falsely claiming they for university degrees? Not to mention that it will also increase prices of software products and services. And I haven't even mention lobbying and corruption, that is inevitable when you have such a powerful organization. Milton Friedman about doctor licenses[^]
A degree can be checked with the issuing university. Why would it prevent the talented from joining? The rates at the lower levels would be rather low, and as one progressed to the higher levels one's salary would be better, so the higher fees would be less of a burden. Having a professional qualification would be CHEAPER for the employers as they would get people who could actually do the work instead of people who merely claim they could do it and who have to be replaced/promoted to managerial positions when they have been caught out. There is nothing wrong with a professional body lobbying for the benefit of its members, and corruption is not limited to programmers!
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live
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There have been attempts here in the UK to set up professional bodies. While they are noble attempts, the simple fact is that there is no legal requirement for you to be a member to do the job. Until there is this requirement, such bodies lack clout.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
Back in the day, I was working towards getting an MBCS, but it doesn't seem worth it any more. Does anybody really value BCS membership today?
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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Because being a Lawyer, like being a Doctor or an Accountant, is seen as a Profession, with a professional body and professional qualifications. Any old hack with a PC and a bit of practice can call themselves a programmer. (Please, I am not making an attack on any personal basis, but we all know this is true) This is why employers give programming tests to recruits, just to see that they can actually program. Any idiot can be a web developer if they learn a little HTML and have access to Google or the good people of CP. (I know this to be true, even a daft old accountant like myself does web development and I have never had a day of tuition, merely self taught and asked the right people the right questions). I think that there ought to be a professional body set up, with rigid definitions of subject matters and strong exams and qualifications so that a potential employer can see at a glance that the candidate is suitable "I see you have C# level three with the IPAIDU" (International Programmers and IT Developers Union). Once there is a recognised professional body that is difficult to achieve, then Programmers will be seen on the same level.
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live
There is a professional body in the UK. The BCS[^] has a royal charter and you can even use letters after your name if you're a member.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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Except that's the road to hell paved with good intentions, or not so good intentions, assuming you are talking about mandatory certification/licensing, like doctor licenses... The main purpose of such licenses in practice will be used to control, not professionally quality, but competition. It will also raise the financially bar for new and talented people to enter the profession which in turn will stall progress of technology we have today. The exact reason we have wide variety of technologies and such a progress in our profession is because it is unregulated and it allows people to enter the market easily and try new things. So if you want formal certification when you hire, why collage/university degree is not enough for you? What is going to stop people from falsely claiming that they have licenses, but won't prevent them from falsely claiming they for university degrees? Not to mention that it will also increase prices of software products and services. And I haven't even mention lobbying and corruption, that is inevitable when you have such a powerful organization. Milton Friedman about doctor licenses[^]
Mladen Jankovic wrote:
collage
Now I have seen a few who do collage work when developing while having a college degree...
Alberto Bar-Noy --------------- “The city’s central computer told you? R2D2, you know better than to trust a strange computer!” (C3PO)
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A degree can be checked with the issuing university. Why would it prevent the talented from joining? The rates at the lower levels would be rather low, and as one progressed to the higher levels one's salary would be better, so the higher fees would be less of a burden. Having a professional qualification would be CHEAPER for the employers as they would get people who could actually do the work instead of people who merely claim they could do it and who have to be replaced/promoted to managerial positions when they have been caught out. There is nothing wrong with a professional body lobbying for the benefit of its members, and corruption is not limited to programmers!
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live
Dalek Dave wrote:
Having a professional qualification would be CHEAPER for the employers as they would get people who could actually do the work instead of people who merely claim they could do it and who have to be replaced/promoted to managerial positions when they have been caught out.
It'll be no different to people getting Degrees and Certifications now. Some will do the study and the work to atain the qualifications, others will go to the sites to cram info like they do now and and sit the exams with not much of a clue, but heaps of information stuck in their head. The other way will be groups doing the assignments together to pass also like they do now. Also the technology and tools change way quicker than any of the other professions you mentioned. So qualificationss are not going to match job requirements in a matter of a couple of years.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
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Dalek Dave wrote:
Having a professional qualification would be CHEAPER for the employers as they would get people who could actually do the work instead of people who merely claim they could do it and who have to be replaced/promoted to managerial positions when they have been caught out.
It'll be no different to people getting Degrees and Certifications now. Some will do the study and the work to atain the qualifications, others will go to the sites to cram info like they do now and and sit the exams with not much of a clue, but heaps of information stuck in their head. The other way will be groups doing the assignments together to pass also like they do now. Also the technology and tools change way quicker than any of the other professions you mentioned. So qualificationss are not going to match job requirements in a matter of a couple of years.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
Accountancy is no different, there are thousands of tax laws and changes to allowances and rates etc each year. CIMA has regular update qualifications to make sure you are up to date.
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live
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Accountancy is no different, there are thousands of tax laws and changes to allowances and rates etc each year. CIMA has regular update qualifications to make sure you are up to date.
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live
Dalek Dave wrote:
Accountancy is no different, there are thousands of tax laws and changes to allowances and rates etc each year.
CIMA has regular update qualifications to make sure you are up to date.Your concepts don't change in the same way. If the base of the number system you used changed or you have to use another alphabet like Russian or Hebrew every couple of years then you would be in the same ball park.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
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Dalek Dave wrote:
Accountancy is no different, there are thousands of tax laws and changes to allowances and rates etc each year.
CIMA has regular update qualifications to make sure you are up to date.Your concepts don't change in the same way. If the base of the number system you used changed or you have to use another alphabet like Russian or Hebrew every couple of years then you would be in the same ball park.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
I have to divine information through a much harder language, that of Tax Legalese! :) I understand your argument, but as the individual would have to learn these skills anyway, why not issue the professional qualification in them?
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live
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A degree can be checked with the issuing university. Why would it prevent the talented from joining? The rates at the lower levels would be rather low, and as one progressed to the higher levels one's salary would be better, so the higher fees would be less of a burden. Having a professional qualification would be CHEAPER for the employers as they would get people who could actually do the work instead of people who merely claim they could do it and who have to be replaced/promoted to managerial positions when they have been caught out. There is nothing wrong with a professional body lobbying for the benefit of its members, and corruption is not limited to programmers!
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live
Dalek Dave wrote:
Why would it prevent the talented from joining?
Because we usually don't know a sh*it when we're entering the market. Steve Woznika didn't know a sh*t when he started building his Apple computer so as Bill Gates when he started Microsoft or Zuckerberg with Facebook. If there was a law forbidding them from developing products just because they didn't have licenses to practice programming they probably wouldn't create them and would leave and start new career. Licensing costs and when you're starting something new that very well might be a big flop and financial loss, it's needless expense, whether you have to license yourself or hire someone who has one. Forbidding someone to build something novel just because the person is not certified is retarder.
Dalek Dave wrote:
The rates at the lower levels would be rather low, and as one progressed to the higher levels one's salary would be better, so the higher fees would be less of a burden.
And who will be regulating those fees? Body itself? What prevents them from ripping you off? You can't do you're job if you don't pay then whatever prices they're asking, so you gotta pay. Or you have to have another regulatory body to regulate regulatory body... my head is spinning.
Dalek Dave wrote:
Having a professional qualification would be CHEAPER
Unless professional license causes scarcity of professionals and costs the candidate big money who will ask for higher pay to offset license fee.
Dalek Dave wrote:
merely claim they could do it and who have to be replaced/promoted to managerial positions when they have been caught out.
That's what screening process is for. Newcomers nor other companies should not pay the prices for your company's inability to hire proper people. And yet again why university/college degree is not enough if you want formal acknowledgement of the candidate's knowledge?
Dalek Dave wrote:
There is nothing wrong with a professional body lobbying for the benefit of its members
Oh yes there is, if the body is mandated by the law and interest of its members is to reduce competition in their profession by not admitting new members to the body.
Dalek Dave wrote:
c
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I have to divine information through a much harder language, that of Tax Legalese! :) I understand your argument, but as the individual would have to learn these skills anyway, why not issue the professional qualification in them?
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live
Dalek Dave wrote:
I understand your argument, but as the individual would have to learn these skills anyway, why not issue the professional qualification in them?
The qualification would have to be ratified/retested every 12 - 18 months to stay current, the industry moves to fast. How was iPhone development going 5 years ago?
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
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There have been attempts here in the UK to set up professional bodies. While they are noble attempts, the simple fact is that there is no legal requirement for you to be a member to do the job. Until there is this requirement, such bodies lack clout.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
simple fact is that there is no legal requirement for you to be a member to do the job
And I hope it will stay that way for eternity.
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Because being a Lawyer, like being a Doctor or an Accountant, is seen as a Profession, with a professional body and professional qualifications. Any old hack with a PC and a bit of practice can call themselves a programmer. (Please, I am not making an attack on any personal basis, but we all know this is true) This is why employers give programming tests to recruits, just to see that they can actually program. Any idiot can be a web developer if they learn a little HTML and have access to Google or the good people of CP. (I know this to be true, even a daft old accountant like myself does web development and I have never had a day of tuition, merely self taught and asked the right people the right questions). I think that there ought to be a professional body set up, with rigid definitions of subject matters and strong exams and qualifications so that a potential employer can see at a glance that the candidate is suitable "I see you have C# level three with the IPAIDU" (International Programmers and IT Developers Union). Once there is a recognised professional body that is difficult to achieve, then Programmers will be seen on the same level.
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live
Dalek Dave wrote:
a Lawyer...professional body and professional qualifications.
I could think of others that fit that description. Cost is about the same and you still get screwed.
Failure is not an option; it's the default selection.
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Back in the day, I was working towards getting an MBCS, but it doesn't seem worth it any more. Does anybody really value BCS membership today?
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Well, I certainly don't. Not because it's not a worthy organisation, but because it doesn't actually show that you can do the job. And that's what I want. Developers who can turn out quality code.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
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Hi all, I recently read (I think it was in the Clean Coder) about how other professionals like lawyers or architects are listened to whereas programmers are not, and why is this? etc. So this is a theme for me right now. As part of cleaning up our act in our team we have adopted Scrum and I've been browsing the web about code metrics because there's nothing like a bit of empirical data when you want to justify why you spent 2 days throwing away 5000 lines of interface code that solves a problem we don't have and hugely increases compilation times and dependencies. So I finally came across the CRAP metric. Apparently this is a genius way of measuring useful qualities about your code. I haven't read much about it yet because the website is brown with flies on it. really. So anyway, I've solved the question of why programmers are not taken as seriously as lawyers. http://www.crap4j.org/[^]
In my experience, good devs are always listened to; it's just that the calling is a solitary one, which doesn't revolve around interpersonal communication and office politics, so they maybe aren't heard as loudly as the noisy mouthpiece types.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!