Creative pro-choice message
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Paul Watson wrote: No good points were made either and the Iraq bit was just lame. You know, I wasn't even going to look until I read this. I agree with you, it was lame. I didn't even get to an Iraq bit. Is it true ? Does Bush want to ban abortion ? That'll get him votes in the deep south. I am VERY anti-abortion, but I am also VERY pro-choice. What right do I have to tell other people how to live ? So much for 'land of the free'. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: VERY anti-abortion, but I am also VERY pro-choice Me, too. But try explaining that to a zealot of either ilk. The religious right faction wants to ban abortion, and has repeatedly tried to ram that down our throats in the form of law. It's a matter of personal moral choice, not subject to legislation, but the holier-than-thou keep trying... Roe vs Wade was a bad decision, but not because it upheld a right. It was bad because the proper decision would have been to deny government the right to rule on it at all. Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003 -
Christian Graus wrote: VERY anti-abortion, but I am also VERY pro-choice Me, too. But try explaining that to a zealot of either ilk. The religious right faction wants to ban abortion, and has repeatedly tried to ram that down our throats in the form of law. It's a matter of personal moral choice, not subject to legislation, but the holier-than-thou keep trying... Roe vs Wade was a bad decision, but not because it upheld a right. It was bad because the proper decision would have been to deny government the right to rule on it at all. Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003Roger Wright wrote: But try explaining that to a zealot of either ilk. I know. I spend a bit of time on Christian forums here and there, and I've tried at times to bring up issues like rape victims to show that the issue is simply not always clear cut. I am so astounded that it's so hard to find a person who accepts that this is even a part of the equation. Roger Wright wrote: It was bad because the proper decision would have been to deny government the right to rule on it at all. So true. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Paul Watson wrote: No good points were made either and the Iraq bit was just lame. You know, I wasn't even going to look until I read this. I agree with you, it was lame. I didn't even get to an Iraq bit. Is it true ? Does Bush want to ban abortion ? That'll get him votes in the deep south. I am VERY anti-abortion, but I am also VERY pro-choice. What right do I have to tell other people how to live ? So much for 'land of the free'. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: What right do I have to tell other people how to live ? So much for 'land of the free'. Do I have a right to kill my kids after they are born? Absolutely not! But why not, I can kill them a day before they're born?
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
Christian Graus wrote: What right do I have to tell other people how to live ? So much for 'land of the free'. Do I have a right to kill my kids after they are born? Absolutely not! But why not, I can kill them a day before they're born?
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *Yeah, that's what we're talking about. Emotional arguements with no recourse to logic. Clearly, no abortion law allows you to kill a child about to be born, the fact that you need to claim otherwise either means you have no idea of the issue, or otherwise, you know your position untenable and so are inventing a straw man. If you prefer emotional argument, try this. A 12 year old girl is raped and beaten by her stepfather. She is 3 weeks pregnant. Why should she be forced to bear the child of her attacker ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Paul Watson wrote: No good points were made either and the Iraq bit was just lame. You know, I wasn't even going to look until I read this. I agree with you, it was lame. I didn't even get to an Iraq bit. Is it true ? Does Bush want to ban abortion ? That'll get him votes in the deep south. I am VERY anti-abortion, but I am also VERY pro-choice. What right do I have to tell other people how to live ? So much for 'land of the free'. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: I am VERY anti-abortion, but I am also VERY pro-choice. What right do I have to tell other people how to live ? Do you think it is wrong to kill another (innocent) human? To keep it more of an even argument, do you think it is wrong for a mother to kill her small child? Are you glad there are laws to prevent just that? Those laws are telling others how to live, but why the difference when it comes to abortion? I see that as being the sticking point between the majority of the two sides: The left doesn't consider something to be alive until it is breathing on its own; the right considers something to be alive at conception. Enough thinking for me tonight, time for bed :zzz: James "It is self repeating, of unknown pattern" Data - Star Trek: The Next Generation
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Christian Graus wrote: I am VERY anti-abortion, but I am also VERY pro-choice. What right do I have to tell other people how to live ? Do you think it is wrong to kill another (innocent) human? To keep it more of an even argument, do you think it is wrong for a mother to kill her small child? Are you glad there are laws to prevent just that? Those laws are telling others how to live, but why the difference when it comes to abortion? I see that as being the sticking point between the majority of the two sides: The left doesn't consider something to be alive until it is breathing on its own; the right considers something to be alive at conception. Enough thinking for me tonight, time for bed :zzz: James "It is self repeating, of unknown pattern" Data - Star Trek: The Next Generation
Congratulations, you at least present the case in a logical manner. As I said to Jason, I oppose abortion personally, but it's just not that black and white an issue. There are instances where it is the best option, and the needs of the mother outweigh the needs of the unborn child, especially in the first few weeks where there is simply no brain to *be* conscious of anything going on. The trouble is that it's too easy to get emotional about kids ( I know, I have two, and I admit since having them I come close to crying if I hear/see something about kids being harmed ). That does not change reality. Abortion should not be used as a form of birth control, but making it illegal does not solve the problem, and there are cases where it is an option that should be pursued almost as a given, unless the mother personally feels otherwise. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Congratulations, you at least present the case in a logical manner. As I said to Jason, I oppose abortion personally, but it's just not that black and white an issue. There are instances where it is the best option, and the needs of the mother outweigh the needs of the unborn child, especially in the first few weeks where there is simply no brain to *be* conscious of anything going on. The trouble is that it's too easy to get emotional about kids ( I know, I have two, and I admit since having them I come close to crying if I hear/see something about kids being harmed ). That does not change reality. Abortion should not be used as a form of birth control, but making it illegal does not solve the problem, and there are cases where it is an option that should be pursued almost as a given, unless the mother personally feels otherwise. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: As I said to Jason After I hit submit I saw that we both had used a similar example. And no, CPs server times aren't that far apart it just took me that long to forumlate my reply. :-O Christian Graus wrote: That does not change reality. Of course not, like most things the best solution lies between the two sides. I agree with most of what Rob Graham said in an earlier post as guidlines for a solution because it still takes into account the extremes (life of the mother and rape). Now I'm really going to bed :-D James "It is self repeating, of unknown pattern" Data - Star Trek: The Next Generation
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Yeah, that's what we're talking about. Emotional arguements with no recourse to logic. Clearly, no abortion law allows you to kill a child about to be born, the fact that you need to claim otherwise either means you have no idea of the issue, or otherwise, you know your position untenable and so are inventing a straw man. If you prefer emotional argument, try this. A 12 year old girl is raped and beaten by her stepfather. She is 3 weeks pregnant. Why should she be forced to bear the child of her attacker ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: Clearly, no abortion law allows you to kill a child about to be born Oh really? Late term abortions are not illegal. Christian Graus wrote: Why should she be forced to bear the child of her attacker ? So we should allow one crime to attempt to cover up another?
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
Congratulations, you at least present the case in a logical manner. As I said to Jason, I oppose abortion personally, but it's just not that black and white an issue. There are instances where it is the best option, and the needs of the mother outweigh the needs of the unborn child, especially in the first few weeks where there is simply no brain to *be* conscious of anything going on. The trouble is that it's too easy to get emotional about kids ( I know, I have two, and I admit since having them I come close to crying if I hear/see something about kids being harmed ). That does not change reality. Abortion should not be used as a form of birth control, but making it illegal does not solve the problem, and there are cases where it is an option that should be pursued almost as a given, unless the mother personally feels otherwise. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: Abortion should not be used as a form of birth control I agree whole-heartedly. Unfortunately, the majority of abortions are just that. Killing in self-defense is legal, therefore having an abortion to save the life of the mother could be deamed legal as well. I know the law cannot be driven by emotion, but my opinions can be.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
Christian Graus wrote: Clearly, no abortion law allows you to kill a child about to be born Oh really? Late term abortions are not illegal. Christian Graus wrote: Why should she be forced to bear the child of her attacker ? So we should allow one crime to attempt to cover up another?
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *Jason Henderson wrote: Late term abortions are not illegal. Well, that is a good example of society 'righting' one wrong with a worse one. Any abortion in the third trimester is most certainly the taking of a life, no different to a newborn. Jason Henderson wrote: So we should allow one crime to attempt to cover up another? So again, when your 12 year old daughter is three weeks pregnant, having been beaten and raped by someone she trusted, and the baby is simply a collection of cells, madly duplicating, but still without form or sentience, you'd look her in the eye and say 'your dreams are gone, you need to spend your life bearing and raising the child of your attacker' ??? ( See, I can do the emotional argument thing quite well, doncha think ? :P ) Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Christian Graus wrote: Abortion should not be used as a form of birth control I agree whole-heartedly. Unfortunately, the majority of abortions are just that. Killing in self-defense is legal, therefore having an abortion to save the life of the mother could be deamed legal as well. I know the law cannot be driven by emotion, but my opinions can be.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *Jason Henderson wrote: I agree whole-heartedly. Unfortunately, the majority of abortions are just that. And that is wrong. But even then, what sort of life do you think an unwanted child will have ? Assuming of course the mother does not die at the hands of a backyard abortion 'doctor'. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
I wasn't talking so much about the animation quality, I was talking more about the way it was constructed. It had a propper storyline to it compared to most fo the others.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff wrote: It had a propper storyline If you mean it was reflective of reality, then maybe. I mean it had a young, hip, thin black... I mean African-American... vs. old, balding, suited, white... I mean Caucasian-American... dudes. :rolleyes: I just did not hear any new, good points being made. It was just making fun of Bush, which just inflames the Bushites and does nothing to the rest of us but make us laugh.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa -
Paul Watson wrote: Is Bush just voicing the general consensus? I would say that he is. I think the majority postion is to quote Bill Clinton "abortion should be safe, legal, and extremely rare". Now I have to wash my mouth out... Most would agree with abortion in cases of rape, to save the mothers life, etc. if in the 1st trimester. Most feel this is a very personal moral decision, and very subject to the specifics of the situation. Few agree with use as a method of birth control, particularly in the 2nd or 3rd trimester. Extremists at both ends keep the divisive arguement going, one side by insisting any abortion should be illegal, the other by insisting all (even 3rd trimester) should be legal regardless of circumstance. Unfortunately, it is the extreme postions that get identified with either "pro-life" or "pro-choice". Some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could have thought of them - George Orwell
Rob Graham wrote: Bill Clinton "abortion should be safe, legal, and extremely rare". Wow, and everyone keeps knocking Clinton? Never thought of saying it like that, but I agree. Rob Graham wrote: Unfortunately, it is the extreme postions that get identified with either "pro-life" or "pro-choice". True. Much like any two camps really. Thanks for answering Rob.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa -
Jason Henderson wrote: I agree whole-heartedly. Unfortunately, the majority of abortions are just that. And that is wrong. But even then, what sort of life do you think an unwanted child will have ? Assuming of course the mother does not die at the hands of a backyard abortion 'doctor'. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: what sort of life do you think an unwanted child will have ? That is not relevant. The real question centers around whether that fetus is living or not. If the fetus is human, then that fetus has the same rights as a baby. If however the fetus is not human, then the fetus has the same rights as a piece of rock. Life can never be sacrificed for economics or convenience. That is why these issues (economics and convenience) are irrelevant. To continue to push for these issues implies the statement, "Some people have more of a right to live than others." If you remember, this statement was used as justification for putting mentally ill people out of their misery.
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Christian Graus wrote: what sort of life do you think an unwanted child will have ? That is not relevant. The real question centers around whether that fetus is living or not. If the fetus is human, then that fetus has the same rights as a baby. If however the fetus is not human, then the fetus has the same rights as a piece of rock. Life can never be sacrificed for economics or convenience. That is why these issues (economics and convenience) are irrelevant. To continue to push for these issues implies the statement, "Some people have more of a right to live than others." If you remember, this statement was used as justification for putting mentally ill people out of their misery.
Emcee Lam wrote: That is not relevant. It's probably not key, but it's worth asking. A 12 year old girl gets raped, and you force her to have the baby. Do you think that baby will be properly cared for, and loved ? Will you be glad of the decision when that child is beating up your grandkids in school ? When he breaks into your house, or steals your car ? How about the life of the mother ? Is it irrelevant to you if she die of complications after having a back yard abortion ? Emcee Lam wrote: To continue to push for these issues implies the statement No, what it implies is that the mother has rights. Emcee Lam wrote: If you remember, this statement was used as justification for putting mentally ill people out of their misery. ARGH !!!! More emotional arguments. Can anyone argue this based on logic, or reason ? I remain against abortion, and I also remain eminently capable of proving to those who would ban abortion that the issue is not that simple. I am horrified that anyone would abort a child beyond the first trimester, but I also continue to believe that abortion is necessary in some cases for the sake of both mother and child. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Jason Henderson wrote: Late term abortions are not illegal. Well, that is a good example of society 'righting' one wrong with a worse one. Any abortion in the third trimester is most certainly the taking of a life, no different to a newborn. Jason Henderson wrote: So we should allow one crime to attempt to cover up another? So again, when your 12 year old daughter is three weeks pregnant, having been beaten and raped by someone she trusted, and the baby is simply a collection of cells, madly duplicating, but still without form or sentience, you'd look her in the eye and say 'your dreams are gone, you need to spend your life bearing and raising the child of your attacker' ??? ( See, I can do the emotional argument thing quite well, doncha think ? :P ) Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: you need to spend your life bearing and raising the child of your attacker There are thousands of people who want to adopt, so she wouldn't have to raise the child. :confused: Maybe by then we can perform baby transplants to mothers that want children. :((
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
Emcee Lam wrote: That is not relevant. It's probably not key, but it's worth asking. A 12 year old girl gets raped, and you force her to have the baby. Do you think that baby will be properly cared for, and loved ? Will you be glad of the decision when that child is beating up your grandkids in school ? When he breaks into your house, or steals your car ? How about the life of the mother ? Is it irrelevant to you if she die of complications after having a back yard abortion ? Emcee Lam wrote: To continue to push for these issues implies the statement No, what it implies is that the mother has rights. Emcee Lam wrote: If you remember, this statement was used as justification for putting mentally ill people out of their misery. ARGH !!!! More emotional arguments. Can anyone argue this based on logic, or reason ? I remain against abortion, and I also remain eminently capable of proving to those who would ban abortion that the issue is not that simple. I am horrified that anyone would abort a child beyond the first trimester, but I also continue to believe that abortion is necessary in some cases for the sake of both mother and child. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002We can't make decisions without emotion Christian, we're human.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
Emcee Lam wrote: That is not relevant. It's probably not key, but it's worth asking. A 12 year old girl gets raped, and you force her to have the baby. Do you think that baby will be properly cared for, and loved ? Will you be glad of the decision when that child is beating up your grandkids in school ? When he breaks into your house, or steals your car ? How about the life of the mother ? Is it irrelevant to you if she die of complications after having a back yard abortion ? Emcee Lam wrote: To continue to push for these issues implies the statement No, what it implies is that the mother has rights. Emcee Lam wrote: If you remember, this statement was used as justification for putting mentally ill people out of their misery. ARGH !!!! More emotional arguments. Can anyone argue this based on logic, or reason ? I remain against abortion, and I also remain eminently capable of proving to those who would ban abortion that the issue is not that simple. I am horrified that anyone would abort a child beyond the first trimester, but I also continue to believe that abortion is necessary in some cases for the sake of both mother and child. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: Emcee Lam wrote: If you remember, this statement was used as justification for putting mentally ill people out of their misery. ARGH !!!! More emotional arguments. Can anyone argue this based on logic, or reason ? I'm not trying to be emotional. By saying that some people have more a right to live than others implies different classes of people. Those that are happy and are capable of contributing to society deserve to live. Those that are burdensome to society deserve to die. The question really hinges on the fetus being human. All humans have a right to live. If the fetus is human, then the fetus has a right to live. This right to live is irrespective of issues of economics or convenience. If the fetus has the same rights as a baby, then abortion is equivalent to infanticide.
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Christian Graus wrote: you need to spend your life bearing and raising the child of your attacker There are thousands of people who want to adopt, so she wouldn't have to raise the child. :confused: Maybe by then we can perform baby transplants to mothers that want children. :((
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *I dunno why someone gave you a 1. I do think this is a silly point of view though. It's basically the 'sweep it under the carpet' approach. I know kids who have been adopted, my mother being one. Every one I know is screwed up by it. And I don't believe there is this huge body of people waiting to adopt, so that there are not enough babies to go around. People who try to cut corners do it because of the wait, not supply and demand. Jason Henderson wrote: Maybe by then we can perform baby transplants to mothers that want children. I doubt it. It's tragic to think of couples who simply cannot have kids, and want them. We know some people in that boat. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
We can't make decisions without emotion Christian, we're human.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *True, we are emotional, and we should certainly listen to our feelings before making these sort of big decisions, logic alone does not cut it. But that's no excuse to throw logic out the window and trust our feelings alone. We can make a case for any point of view that way, and be swung by it in the heat of the moment. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002