Creative pro-choice message
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Congratulations, you at least present the case in a logical manner. As I said to Jason, I oppose abortion personally, but it's just not that black and white an issue. There are instances where it is the best option, and the needs of the mother outweigh the needs of the unborn child, especially in the first few weeks where there is simply no brain to *be* conscious of anything going on. The trouble is that it's too easy to get emotional about kids ( I know, I have two, and I admit since having them I come close to crying if I hear/see something about kids being harmed ). That does not change reality. Abortion should not be used as a form of birth control, but making it illegal does not solve the problem, and there are cases where it is an option that should be pursued almost as a given, unless the mother personally feels otherwise. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: Abortion should not be used as a form of birth control I agree whole-heartedly. Unfortunately, the majority of abortions are just that. Killing in self-defense is legal, therefore having an abortion to save the life of the mother could be deamed legal as well. I know the law cannot be driven by emotion, but my opinions can be.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
Christian Graus wrote: Clearly, no abortion law allows you to kill a child about to be born Oh really? Late term abortions are not illegal. Christian Graus wrote: Why should she be forced to bear the child of her attacker ? So we should allow one crime to attempt to cover up another?
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *Jason Henderson wrote: Late term abortions are not illegal. Well, that is a good example of society 'righting' one wrong with a worse one. Any abortion in the third trimester is most certainly the taking of a life, no different to a newborn. Jason Henderson wrote: So we should allow one crime to attempt to cover up another? So again, when your 12 year old daughter is three weeks pregnant, having been beaten and raped by someone she trusted, and the baby is simply a collection of cells, madly duplicating, but still without form or sentience, you'd look her in the eye and say 'your dreams are gone, you need to spend your life bearing and raising the child of your attacker' ??? ( See, I can do the emotional argument thing quite well, doncha think ? :P ) Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Christian Graus wrote: Abortion should not be used as a form of birth control I agree whole-heartedly. Unfortunately, the majority of abortions are just that. Killing in self-defense is legal, therefore having an abortion to save the life of the mother could be deamed legal as well. I know the law cannot be driven by emotion, but my opinions can be.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *Jason Henderson wrote: I agree whole-heartedly. Unfortunately, the majority of abortions are just that. And that is wrong. But even then, what sort of life do you think an unwanted child will have ? Assuming of course the mother does not die at the hands of a backyard abortion 'doctor'. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
I wasn't talking so much about the animation quality, I was talking more about the way it was constructed. It had a propper storyline to it compared to most fo the others.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff wrote: It had a propper storyline If you mean it was reflective of reality, then maybe. I mean it had a young, hip, thin black... I mean African-American... vs. old, balding, suited, white... I mean Caucasian-American... dudes. :rolleyes: I just did not hear any new, good points being made. It was just making fun of Bush, which just inflames the Bushites and does nothing to the rest of us but make us laugh.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa -
Paul Watson wrote: Is Bush just voicing the general consensus? I would say that he is. I think the majority postion is to quote Bill Clinton "abortion should be safe, legal, and extremely rare". Now I have to wash my mouth out... Most would agree with abortion in cases of rape, to save the mothers life, etc. if in the 1st trimester. Most feel this is a very personal moral decision, and very subject to the specifics of the situation. Few agree with use as a method of birth control, particularly in the 2nd or 3rd trimester. Extremists at both ends keep the divisive arguement going, one side by insisting any abortion should be illegal, the other by insisting all (even 3rd trimester) should be legal regardless of circumstance. Unfortunately, it is the extreme postions that get identified with either "pro-life" or "pro-choice". Some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could have thought of them - George Orwell
Rob Graham wrote: Bill Clinton "abortion should be safe, legal, and extremely rare". Wow, and everyone keeps knocking Clinton? Never thought of saying it like that, but I agree. Rob Graham wrote: Unfortunately, it is the extreme postions that get identified with either "pro-life" or "pro-choice". True. Much like any two camps really. Thanks for answering Rob.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa -
Jason Henderson wrote: I agree whole-heartedly. Unfortunately, the majority of abortions are just that. And that is wrong. But even then, what sort of life do you think an unwanted child will have ? Assuming of course the mother does not die at the hands of a backyard abortion 'doctor'. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: what sort of life do you think an unwanted child will have ? That is not relevant. The real question centers around whether that fetus is living or not. If the fetus is human, then that fetus has the same rights as a baby. If however the fetus is not human, then the fetus has the same rights as a piece of rock. Life can never be sacrificed for economics or convenience. That is why these issues (economics and convenience) are irrelevant. To continue to push for these issues implies the statement, "Some people have more of a right to live than others." If you remember, this statement was used as justification for putting mentally ill people out of their misery.
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Christian Graus wrote: what sort of life do you think an unwanted child will have ? That is not relevant. The real question centers around whether that fetus is living or not. If the fetus is human, then that fetus has the same rights as a baby. If however the fetus is not human, then the fetus has the same rights as a piece of rock. Life can never be sacrificed for economics or convenience. That is why these issues (economics and convenience) are irrelevant. To continue to push for these issues implies the statement, "Some people have more of a right to live than others." If you remember, this statement was used as justification for putting mentally ill people out of their misery.
Emcee Lam wrote: That is not relevant. It's probably not key, but it's worth asking. A 12 year old girl gets raped, and you force her to have the baby. Do you think that baby will be properly cared for, and loved ? Will you be glad of the decision when that child is beating up your grandkids in school ? When he breaks into your house, or steals your car ? How about the life of the mother ? Is it irrelevant to you if she die of complications after having a back yard abortion ? Emcee Lam wrote: To continue to push for these issues implies the statement No, what it implies is that the mother has rights. Emcee Lam wrote: If you remember, this statement was used as justification for putting mentally ill people out of their misery. ARGH !!!! More emotional arguments. Can anyone argue this based on logic, or reason ? I remain against abortion, and I also remain eminently capable of proving to those who would ban abortion that the issue is not that simple. I am horrified that anyone would abort a child beyond the first trimester, but I also continue to believe that abortion is necessary in some cases for the sake of both mother and child. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Jason Henderson wrote: Late term abortions are not illegal. Well, that is a good example of society 'righting' one wrong with a worse one. Any abortion in the third trimester is most certainly the taking of a life, no different to a newborn. Jason Henderson wrote: So we should allow one crime to attempt to cover up another? So again, when your 12 year old daughter is three weeks pregnant, having been beaten and raped by someone she trusted, and the baby is simply a collection of cells, madly duplicating, but still without form or sentience, you'd look her in the eye and say 'your dreams are gone, you need to spend your life bearing and raising the child of your attacker' ??? ( See, I can do the emotional argument thing quite well, doncha think ? :P ) Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: you need to spend your life bearing and raising the child of your attacker There are thousands of people who want to adopt, so she wouldn't have to raise the child. :confused: Maybe by then we can perform baby transplants to mothers that want children. :((
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
Emcee Lam wrote: That is not relevant. It's probably not key, but it's worth asking. A 12 year old girl gets raped, and you force her to have the baby. Do you think that baby will be properly cared for, and loved ? Will you be glad of the decision when that child is beating up your grandkids in school ? When he breaks into your house, or steals your car ? How about the life of the mother ? Is it irrelevant to you if she die of complications after having a back yard abortion ? Emcee Lam wrote: To continue to push for these issues implies the statement No, what it implies is that the mother has rights. Emcee Lam wrote: If you remember, this statement was used as justification for putting mentally ill people out of their misery. ARGH !!!! More emotional arguments. Can anyone argue this based on logic, or reason ? I remain against abortion, and I also remain eminently capable of proving to those who would ban abortion that the issue is not that simple. I am horrified that anyone would abort a child beyond the first trimester, but I also continue to believe that abortion is necessary in some cases for the sake of both mother and child. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002We can't make decisions without emotion Christian, we're human.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
Emcee Lam wrote: That is not relevant. It's probably not key, but it's worth asking. A 12 year old girl gets raped, and you force her to have the baby. Do you think that baby will be properly cared for, and loved ? Will you be glad of the decision when that child is beating up your grandkids in school ? When he breaks into your house, or steals your car ? How about the life of the mother ? Is it irrelevant to you if she die of complications after having a back yard abortion ? Emcee Lam wrote: To continue to push for these issues implies the statement No, what it implies is that the mother has rights. Emcee Lam wrote: If you remember, this statement was used as justification for putting mentally ill people out of their misery. ARGH !!!! More emotional arguments. Can anyone argue this based on logic, or reason ? I remain against abortion, and I also remain eminently capable of proving to those who would ban abortion that the issue is not that simple. I am horrified that anyone would abort a child beyond the first trimester, but I also continue to believe that abortion is necessary in some cases for the sake of both mother and child. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: Emcee Lam wrote: If you remember, this statement was used as justification for putting mentally ill people out of their misery. ARGH !!!! More emotional arguments. Can anyone argue this based on logic, or reason ? I'm not trying to be emotional. By saying that some people have more a right to live than others implies different classes of people. Those that are happy and are capable of contributing to society deserve to live. Those that are burdensome to society deserve to die. The question really hinges on the fetus being human. All humans have a right to live. If the fetus is human, then the fetus has a right to live. This right to live is irrespective of issues of economics or convenience. If the fetus has the same rights as a baby, then abortion is equivalent to infanticide.
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Christian Graus wrote: you need to spend your life bearing and raising the child of your attacker There are thousands of people who want to adopt, so she wouldn't have to raise the child. :confused: Maybe by then we can perform baby transplants to mothers that want children. :((
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *I dunno why someone gave you a 1. I do think this is a silly point of view though. It's basically the 'sweep it under the carpet' approach. I know kids who have been adopted, my mother being one. Every one I know is screwed up by it. And I don't believe there is this huge body of people waiting to adopt, so that there are not enough babies to go around. People who try to cut corners do it because of the wait, not supply and demand. Jason Henderson wrote: Maybe by then we can perform baby transplants to mothers that want children. I doubt it. It's tragic to think of couples who simply cannot have kids, and want them. We know some people in that boat. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
We can't make decisions without emotion Christian, we're human.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *True, we are emotional, and we should certainly listen to our feelings before making these sort of big decisions, logic alone does not cut it. But that's no excuse to throw logic out the window and trust our feelings alone. We can make a case for any point of view that way, and be swung by it in the heat of the moment. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
I dunno why someone gave you a 1. I do think this is a silly point of view though. It's basically the 'sweep it under the carpet' approach. I know kids who have been adopted, my mother being one. Every one I know is screwed up by it. And I don't believe there is this huge body of people waiting to adopt, so that there are not enough babies to go around. People who try to cut corners do it because of the wait, not supply and demand. Jason Henderson wrote: Maybe by then we can perform baby transplants to mothers that want children. I doubt it. It's tragic to think of couples who simply cannot have kids, and want them. We know some people in that boat. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: I dunno why someone gave you a 1. That's alright, I deserved it. Christian Graus wrote: And I don't believe there is this huge body of people waiting to adopt Maybe not, but for some reason its easier for a crack whore to have a baby and throw it in the dumpster than it is for a family who wants kids to adopt. It makes no sense.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
Christian Graus wrote: Emcee Lam wrote: If you remember, this statement was used as justification for putting mentally ill people out of their misery. ARGH !!!! More emotional arguments. Can anyone argue this based on logic, or reason ? I'm not trying to be emotional. By saying that some people have more a right to live than others implies different classes of people. Those that are happy and are capable of contributing to society deserve to live. Those that are burdensome to society deserve to die. The question really hinges on the fetus being human. All humans have a right to live. If the fetus is human, then the fetus has a right to live. This right to live is irrespective of issues of economics or convenience. If the fetus has the same rights as a baby, then abortion is equivalent to infanticide.
Emcee Lam wrote: By saying that some people have more a right to live than others implies different classes of people. There goes the emotional argument again. Emcee Lam wrote: Those that are happy and are capable of contributing to society deserve to live. Those that are burdensome to society deserve to die. ARGH AGAIN !!! I said NOTHING like that. If you want to discuss something with me, please don't put words in my mouth to add strength to your argument. Emcee Lam wrote: If the fetus has the same rights as a baby, then abortion is equivalent to infanticide. Could you answer me a couple of questions. 1. At what point does the mother have no rights ? 2. Your logic can easily be extended to my sperm. Should I go to jail for all the whacking off I did as a teenager ? 3. How about women for having periods ? It's just silly. A group of cells that has no shape is not a human being, and while abortion remains personally abhorent, I don't think it's a sitation for legislation. Seeing as you're big on the emotional argument, what's *your* response to my (non-hypothetical BTW) 12 year old who has been raped ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Christian Graus wrote: I dunno why someone gave you a 1. That's alright, I deserved it. Christian Graus wrote: And I don't believe there is this huge body of people waiting to adopt Maybe not, but for some reason its easier for a crack whore to have a baby and throw it in the dumpster than it is for a family who wants kids to adopt. It makes no sense.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *Jason Henderson wrote: some reason its easier for a crack whore to have a baby and throw it in the dumpster than it is for a family who wants kids to adopt. It makes no sense. It's not fair, but it makes perfect sense. Most crack whores are by definition having sex and capable of bearing young. When a couple adopts, the government is involved and must make sure they do not give a child to a couple who will mistreat it. Personally, I think they should put the pill in the water, and instead of buying drugs to stop pregnancy, you need to buy ones to counteract the water, after passing several tests to prove you're going to create something we want in our society. Nothing to do with race, religion, politics or money. Just that you intend to love the child and raise them to become responsible adults. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Emcee Lam wrote: By saying that some people have more a right to live than others implies different classes of people. There goes the emotional argument again. Emcee Lam wrote: Those that are happy and are capable of contributing to society deserve to live. Those that are burdensome to society deserve to die. ARGH AGAIN !!! I said NOTHING like that. If you want to discuss something with me, please don't put words in my mouth to add strength to your argument. Emcee Lam wrote: If the fetus has the same rights as a baby, then abortion is equivalent to infanticide. Could you answer me a couple of questions. 1. At what point does the mother have no rights ? 2. Your logic can easily be extended to my sperm. Should I go to jail for all the whacking off I did as a teenager ? 3. How about women for having periods ? It's just silly. A group of cells that has no shape is not a human being, and while abortion remains personally abhorent, I don't think it's a sitation for legislation. Seeing as you're big on the emotional argument, what's *your* response to my (non-hypothetical BTW) 12 year old who has been raped ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: Emcee Lam wrote: By saying that some people have more a right to live than others implies different classes of people. There goes the emotional argument again. It's not an emotional based argument. It's a rule based argument. One either accepts or rejects the rule. If you accept the rule, then a class of lesser humans is created. If you reject the rule, then you declare that all humans have a right to live. Christian Graus wrote: Emcee Lam wrote: Those that are happy and are capable of contributing to society deserve to live. Those that are burdensome to society deserve to die. ARGH AGAIN !!! I said NOTHING like that. If you want to discuss something with me, please don't put words in my mouth to add strength to your argument. I'm sorry, but adding economics and convenience to this discussion does imply that some people have more of a right to live than others. I understand it's not your intention to designate a lesser human class, but that is what you have done. Human life is human life. Every human life no matter its state is worthy of living. The question centers around whether the fetus is human life or not. Whether an individual grows up in poverty or prosperity does not matter, all humans have a right to live. Christian Graus wrote: Emcee Lam wrote: If the fetus has the same rights as a baby, then abortion is equivalent to infanticide. Could you answer me a couple of questions. 1. At what point does the mother have no rights ? 2. Your logic can easily be extended to my sperm. Should I go to jail for all the whacking off I did as a teenager ? 3. How about women for having periods ? 1. One human can not take the life of another human. If the fetus is human, then the mother is disallowed from taking the life of the fetus. 2,3. The question centers around what is human life. No one believes that sperm and egg by themselves are human life. Because they're not human life, the individual sperm and egg have no rights. Christian Graus wrote: It's just silly. A group of cells that has no shape is not a human being, and while abortion remains personally abhorent, I don't think it's a sitation for legislation. Seeing as you're big on the emotional argument, what's *your* response to my (non-hypothetical BTW) 12 year old who has been raped ? Whether a fetus is human, is not a question for which I have answered. I choose not to pro
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Christian Graus wrote: Clearly, no abortion law allows you to kill a child about to be born Oh really? Late term abortions are not illegal. Christian Graus wrote: Why should she be forced to bear the child of her attacker ? So we should allow one crime to attempt to cover up another?
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *Jason Henderson wrote: So we should allow one crime to attempt to cover up another? Your a fuckwit. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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Christian Graus wrote: you need to spend your life bearing and raising the child of your attacker There are thousands of people who want to adopt, so she wouldn't have to raise the child. :confused: Maybe by then we can perform baby transplants to mothers that want children. :((
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *Jason Henderson wrote: There are thousands of people who want to adopt, so she wouldn't have to raise the child. :confused: But she still has to carry the baby for 9 odd months and then it cut out of her or actuallyu give birth to it. It's hard enough for women (not girls) who want kids to go through the childbirth thing. Forget forcing someone young or not to have a baby they didn't want and weren't even having the fun that can result in babies. Apologies for for previous reply to an earlier message of yours. I have very strong views on rape and molestations that haven't been formed from reading. At times I explode into a reply from a post or snippet of a conversation without taking the time to get the whole picture. A perfect example you have just experienced. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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Congratulations, you at least present the case in a logical manner. As I said to Jason, I oppose abortion personally, but it's just not that black and white an issue. There are instances where it is the best option, and the needs of the mother outweigh the needs of the unborn child, especially in the first few weeks where there is simply no brain to *be* conscious of anything going on. The trouble is that it's too easy to get emotional about kids ( I know, I have two, and I admit since having them I come close to crying if I hear/see something about kids being harmed ). That does not change reality. Abortion should not be used as a form of birth control, but making it illegal does not solve the problem, and there are cases where it is an option that should be pursued almost as a given, unless the mother personally feels otherwise. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: ( I know, I have two, and I admit since having them I come close to crying if I hear/see something about kids being harmed ) I actually scare myself at times with the abject anger, hatred and thoughts I have of what I would do to them if I caught them. The scariest part is I know I would snap and do it, without thought or reasoning of 'I have kids now and need to be responsible'. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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Emcee Lam wrote: That is not relevant. It's probably not key, but it's worth asking. A 12 year old girl gets raped, and you force her to have the baby. Do you think that baby will be properly cared for, and loved ? Will you be glad of the decision when that child is beating up your grandkids in school ? When he breaks into your house, or steals your car ? How about the life of the mother ? Is it irrelevant to you if she die of complications after having a back yard abortion ? Emcee Lam wrote: To continue to push for these issues implies the statement No, what it implies is that the mother has rights. Emcee Lam wrote: If you remember, this statement was used as justification for putting mentally ill people out of their misery. ARGH !!!! More emotional arguments. Can anyone argue this based on logic, or reason ? I remain against abortion, and I also remain eminently capable of proving to those who would ban abortion that the issue is not that simple. I am horrified that anyone would abort a child beyond the first trimester, but I also continue to believe that abortion is necessary in some cases for the sake of both mother and child. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: How about the life of the mother ? This is the only relevant thing for anyone to be arguing about at this stage. There is no baby, there is no fetous, there is only a collection of cells. In your scenario the 12 year old is completely fucked up in the head. More than likely has never had sex and didn't even contemplate having it yet. Then she is beaten and fucked. Mentally and physically she is a mess. Years to fix that alone. Now comes along Mr Moral Majority who says, 'Hey, guess what? You get to carry the baby for 9 months and give birth to it.'. I wish he got to undergo a large dose of Boola-Boola from cousins all named Bubba. Then I would like a large watermelon be inserted into his body. Then 9 months later he has to pass it through his arsehole. I told you I have fucked up thoughts on stuff like this. Personally I would settle for a set of leather gloves and beat the shit out of him for hours like in one of the Dirty Harry movies. Then a case of progressive circumcision using a potato peeler. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002