Shouldn't programmers know how to fix computers?
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Mike Hankey wrote:
But I can fix my own computer!
I do all my own repairs and diagnostics as well, but because I'm cheap, I'd rather spend 20 hours on a fix than pay some kid to pull out all the cards and say "I dunno" and charge me $75 to reformat my drive. I do repairs and charge other people though, I used to do it as favors but they keep coming back for more freebies every time their stupid kid visits a porn site. Charge them money and they return a little less often.
It was broke, so I fixed it.
S Houghtelin wrote:
I do repairs and charge other people though, I used to do it as favors but they keep coming back for more freebies every time their stupid kid visits a porn site.
My solution would be to fix the kid. And I don't mean by making him (or her) less stupid.
I'm not a programmer but I play one at the office
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There's helpdesk to deal with that sort of stuff. I don't have to be elephanting around fixing a BSOD.
"Real men drive manual transmission" - Rajesh.
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That analogy is not the same. A driver of a car is just a user of the car. I am not asking that users know how to fix computers. Programmers, on the other hand, are the ones writing code that runs on a computer so they better know something about how computers work.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Actually I agreed with you. Drivers = Users. Programmers = Manufacturer. They are two different classes. Hardware and API are part of a programmer's job to understand. I still don't get it that people claimed to be programmers but don't know about the infrastructure where their application going to run on. It just not add up.
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Actually I agreed with you. Drivers = Users. Programmers = Manufacturer. They are two different classes. Hardware and API are part of a programmer's job to understand. I still don't get it that people claimed to be programmers but don't know about the infrastructure where their application going to run on. It just not add up.
Ya, to be honest, I am very surprised at how many people are using the car and driver analogy. It does not work. I am also surprised at how many people defend programmers who do not know anything about computers. It doesn't make sense to me.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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I stay outside of the domain so I can maintain my own machines. Not stinky group policy causing BSOD.
I am out of the "domain" too, at my workplace. Good to see I have company (pun intended), but apparently it may not be allowed at certain work places. Besides, BSOD need not be always caused by a group policies alone.
"Real men drive manual transmission" - Rajesh.
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Ya, to be honest, I am very surprised at how many people are using the car and driver analogy. It does not work. I am also surprised at how many people defend programmers who do not know anything about computers. It doesn't make sense to me.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Mike Hankey wrote:
But I can fix my own computer!
I do all my own repairs and diagnostics as well, but because I'm cheap, I'd rather spend 20 hours on a fix than pay some kid to pull out all the cards and say "I dunno" and charge me $75 to reformat my drive. I do repairs and charge other people though, I used to do it as favors but they keep coming back for more freebies every time their stupid kid visits a porn site. Charge them money and they return a little less often.
It was broke, so I fixed it.
The problem is that in an enterprise environment you are most often not allowed to do much on your machine, and this prevents you from fixing your own computer.
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Have you considered that he claim "I just write code" is backed by your developers' contract? Does their contract state they have to take care of their infrastructure and set up and maintain all required hard- and software? If yes they're not fulfilling their contract. If no, you're having unreasonable expectations.
In small companies there are no unreasonable expectations. Developers who hide behind the contact are in most cases lazy, or don't think it is there job.
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loctrice wrote:
Computer User:
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a person who uses computers for work or entertainment or communication or businessI assume you made the User and the work parts bold to empasize and try to point out that programmers are as a matter of fact users just doing their work. That's like saying a mechanic is just another car owner because he drives a car to work. It's true, BUT, if his car broke down on the way to work, it's kinda logical to assume he would maybe know how to fix it. Or at least have a good idea what went wrong even if he can't fix it himself. Programmers that complain about BSOD and PC's malfunctioning are like the mechanic that can't even tell you what's wrong with his own car. Would you trust that mechanic to fix YOUR car...... I didn't think so! So why should I trust that kind of programmer to write decent software?!? :confused:
HuntrCkr wrote:
Programmers that complain about BSOD and PC's malfunctioning are like the mechanic that can't even tell you what's wrong with his own car. Would you trust that mechanic to fix YOUR car...... I didn't think so!
It's not quite the same thing. It's more like the guys at the mechanic shop saying they can't air brush the image you asked for onto your car, or repair the body because both of those require specialists. Very very few mechanic shops can do that. There are plenty of mechanic shops that can replace a transmition, but not rebuild it. To rebuild it, you would need someone who knows that particular specialty. Also like the oil change people saying they can't change the exhaust manifold and give you a new exhaust system.
HuntrCkr wrote:
So why should I trust that kind of programmer to write decent software?!? :confused:
I don't think the ability to trouble shoot the OS has anything to do with writing software, unless the os's code is available to look at.
HuntrCkr wrote:
Programmers that complain about BSOD and PC's malfunctioning are like the mechanic that can't even tell you what's wrong with his own car.
BSOD ... doesn't happen to me , I use Linux. If it happens at work, I'm completely lost. Doesn't have a thing to do with my writing software.
If it moves, compile it
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These are the so called self taught developers, who have learned to code but have no knowledge of a computer's hardware. Binary is as foreign to them as learning a new language.
I am a self-taught developers, I have done research, developed algorithms, and dealt with math most people, even some math teachers, will not see in their lifetime. Please don't attack the the self-taught developers. I stand behind every line of code I write and every architecture I design. What is hilarious about the threads on The Code Project are generalizations. What's up with all the bashing? Also, just because you can fix a car, that does not mean you always will. If you are a racer, you know enough about cars to fix them. You probably grew up doing that. Nevertheless, you will not jump out of the car in a middle of a race to fix it. That is why you have a team that you trust. Unless, it is something minor which you can handle quickly and go back in the race, you will not touch that care. Plus a racing vehicle is hardly your average one. Your knowledge might not be applicable to that vehicle. In addition, you can research, but you cannot beat that car engineer in the team. I have been reading this thread because I find the topic interesting, but I think we generalize a lot and by developers we actually mean the bad developers. The subject should actually be "Shouldn't bad developers learn how to work with computers?"... In those lines...Same with the developers. I am really sorry that you guys have to work with incompetent people.
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Are they programming on a Linux box? Or, creating Linux applications? Then yes, they should know how Linux works.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Are you suggesting a power user does not know how to do basic troubleshooting? I wish these developers were at least power users.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
I'm suggesting only that a programmer is still a user. -edit- You buy windoze to use it. You don't have anything to do with the code base. You buy Visual Studio and use it. You don't have anything to do with the code base. You buy Sql server to use it. You don't have anything to do with the code base. etc.. -end-
If it moves, compile it
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I definitely see your point, but I don't think the problem is with developers in general. I think you should fire those guys and hire somebody who can handle the work of a small company. I started in a small company, and I know what you are talking about. The company just did not hire the right people. I still stand my point too. Good developers can fix their computers, and most of them like myself do. However, with my experience and knowledge, and I am sure this is true for most developers who really care about their art, I know how much time it takes to fix a particular error. Thus, if it takes too much time. I rather call a specialist, in this case a tech, again in a mid-size company, and let him handle it, while I borrow another computer to continue developing. No product developed, no company. Next time when they ask you to fix something, do what should be done... let them suffer until they realize it's time to learn... and learn quick. Change or die. Simple. I am not arguing against you, just arguing against generalizing developers. :)
didimitrov wrote:
Good developers can fix their computers
Opinion. No different then my saying good developers don't use m$.
didimitrov wrote:
I know how much time it takes to fix a particular error.
This only counts if it is an error you recognize.
didimitrov wrote:
and I am sure this is true for most developers who really care about their art
I am sure that developers who really are about their art don't use .NET. See, another opinion.
If it moves, compile it
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In small companies there are no unreasonable expectations. Developers who hide behind the contact are in most cases lazy, or don't think it is there job.
I think developers in small companies that go beyond their contract are kiss *** showboats and should be gotten rid of because they don't know how to maintain their own position and let the boss delegate. See how one sided shots like that just sound odd when they are not inside your blinders?
If it moves, compile it
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I think developers in small companies that go beyond their contract are kiss *** showboats and should be gotten rid of because they don't know how to maintain their own position and let the boss delegate. See how one sided shots like that just sound odd when they are not inside your blinders?
If it moves, compile it
Ok I think you are dead wrong on that one. Bossed can delegate, but if I am your boss and you call me every time you have a small problem, you are wasting my time. There are a lot of caveats here. -size of company -culture of the company -what do you mean by boss --dev manager or an owner ---If you are really small, job description don't matter and the boss is trying to build a business, which involves more than just dealing with a bunch of developers who say this is not in my job description. That is why start-ups don't hire such developers, or at least try to avoid that. ---If the company goes to 20-30 techs, they will have dev managers with maybe team leaders, depending on how it is structured. Still within your team, you can't just say "when you guys hired me you did not say I will have to do this." ---Don't get me wrong, I am in for money and I don't accept people screwing around with me and passing me work that is not mine. However, I am talking about stepping up to the plate when it is needed to get the job done. That is what I pay top dollar for. Are you trying to say that my boss will be unhappy that I troubled him with one less problem? I have been up in the chain and an employee. If you can't handle being a boss, can't say developers do this or that. "I suck because they do too much work and don't bother me with it" - that just seems like crap to me. I think this can only be discussed over a beer.
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didimitrov wrote:
Good developers can fix their computers
Opinion. No different then my saying good developers don't use m$.
didimitrov wrote:
I know how much time it takes to fix a particular error.
This only counts if it is an error you recognize.
didimitrov wrote:
and I am sure this is true for most developers who really care about their art
I am sure that developers who really are about their art don't use .NET. See, another opinion.
If it moves, compile it
I am not a .NET developer. However, it is a tool. Just like you have a hammer, drill, and a screw driver. A language is a tool, rather than a law you live by. You use whatever suits the project and will yield the most elegant solution. That, however, is by itself a thread so I will cut it here. You are also wright that I would know exactly only if I recognize the error. Most of the times thought you can see an error an you can estimate how bad it is. That is all it take me to know, that if I have to fix it, I need to let others not that it will take that much additional time, or call a tech to fix it and ask him to bring me a laptop so I can keep working. I respect your opinion and I believe that developers should know how to fix their machines, but should not fix them unless it is cheaper, time wise, to fix it than to call a tech support to handle it. Purely cost-benefit analysis.
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I am not a .NET developer. However, it is a tool. Just like you have a hammer, drill, and a screw driver. A language is a tool, rather than a law you live by. You use whatever suits the project and will yield the most elegant solution. That, however, is by itself a thread so I will cut it here. You are also wright that I would know exactly only if I recognize the error. Most of the times thought you can see an error an you can estimate how bad it is. That is all it take me to know, that if I have to fix it, I need to let others not that it will take that much additional time, or call a tech to fix it and ask him to bring me a laptop so I can keep working. I respect your opinion and I believe that developers should know how to fix their machines, but should not fix them unless it is cheaper, time wise, to fix it than to call a tech support to handle it. Purely cost-benefit analysis.
I respect your opinion as well. I'm not for or against any one language. I was just using the .net as an example. I use several languages. I think a developer should know how to fix his/her machine. I don't usually have an issue with my own hardware, or linux stuff. If I do I know how to fix it. I am working to learn how to do the ms stuff, but I don't know it yet. All that stuff means to me , is I'm not the target of the thread. Not being the target, does not mean I can't debate :D I don't think that a developer necessarily needs to know how to fix his computer. I certainly don't think less of him if he doesn't. To me, they are two different areas. That's why I joined the conversation ;)
If it moves, compile it
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Ok I think you are dead wrong on that one. Bossed can delegate, but if I am your boss and you call me every time you have a small problem, you are wasting my time. There are a lot of caveats here. -size of company -culture of the company -what do you mean by boss --dev manager or an owner ---If you are really small, job description don't matter and the boss is trying to build a business, which involves more than just dealing with a bunch of developers who say this is not in my job description. That is why start-ups don't hire such developers, or at least try to avoid that. ---If the company goes to 20-30 techs, they will have dev managers with maybe team leaders, depending on how it is structured. Still within your team, you can't just say "when you guys hired me you did not say I will have to do this." ---Don't get me wrong, I am in for money and I don't accept people screwing around with me and passing me work that is not mine. However, I am talking about stepping up to the plate when it is needed to get the job done. That is what I pay top dollar for. Are you trying to say that my boss will be unhappy that I troubled him with one less problem? I have been up in the chain and an employee. If you can't handle being a boss, can't say developers do this or that. "I suck because they do too much work and don't bother me with it" - that just seems like crap to me. I think this can only be discussed over a beer.
:beer: My point was just to state another opinion. I thought it was strong to call a developer lazy and phrase it as "hiding behind the contract". So , I countered with an equal opinion from the oposite view. This does not mean that it is my view. I work for a small company. There is no job description. You do what you are a capable of, and learn what you are not. If the company needs something, anyone who can do it is welcomed and encouraged. And, I like that environment.
If it moves, compile it
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My Win7 PC never blue screens but we have 2 devs who's computers blue screen all the time, almost daily. One watches bootleg dvds all day and the other plugs his iPhone into his USB port so I think they bring it on themselves.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.