Shouldn't programmers know how to fix computers?
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Are you suggesting a power user does not know how to do basic troubleshooting? I wish these developers were at least power users.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
I'm suggesting only that a programmer is still a user. -edit- You buy windoze to use it. You don't have anything to do with the code base. You buy Visual Studio and use it. You don't have anything to do with the code base. You buy Sql server to use it. You don't have anything to do with the code base. etc.. -end-
If it moves, compile it
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I definitely see your point, but I don't think the problem is with developers in general. I think you should fire those guys and hire somebody who can handle the work of a small company. I started in a small company, and I know what you are talking about. The company just did not hire the right people. I still stand my point too. Good developers can fix their computers, and most of them like myself do. However, with my experience and knowledge, and I am sure this is true for most developers who really care about their art, I know how much time it takes to fix a particular error. Thus, if it takes too much time. I rather call a specialist, in this case a tech, again in a mid-size company, and let him handle it, while I borrow another computer to continue developing. No product developed, no company. Next time when they ask you to fix something, do what should be done... let them suffer until they realize it's time to learn... and learn quick. Change or die. Simple. I am not arguing against you, just arguing against generalizing developers. :)
didimitrov wrote:
Good developers can fix their computers
Opinion. No different then my saying good developers don't use m$.
didimitrov wrote:
I know how much time it takes to fix a particular error.
This only counts if it is an error you recognize.
didimitrov wrote:
and I am sure this is true for most developers who really care about their art
I am sure that developers who really are about their art don't use .NET. See, another opinion.
If it moves, compile it
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In small companies there are no unreasonable expectations. Developers who hide behind the contact are in most cases lazy, or don't think it is there job.
I think developers in small companies that go beyond their contract are kiss *** showboats and should be gotten rid of because they don't know how to maintain their own position and let the boss delegate. See how one sided shots like that just sound odd when they are not inside your blinders?
If it moves, compile it
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I think developers in small companies that go beyond their contract are kiss *** showboats and should be gotten rid of because they don't know how to maintain their own position and let the boss delegate. See how one sided shots like that just sound odd when they are not inside your blinders?
If it moves, compile it
Ok I think you are dead wrong on that one. Bossed can delegate, but if I am your boss and you call me every time you have a small problem, you are wasting my time. There are a lot of caveats here. -size of company -culture of the company -what do you mean by boss --dev manager or an owner ---If you are really small, job description don't matter and the boss is trying to build a business, which involves more than just dealing with a bunch of developers who say this is not in my job description. That is why start-ups don't hire such developers, or at least try to avoid that. ---If the company goes to 20-30 techs, they will have dev managers with maybe team leaders, depending on how it is structured. Still within your team, you can't just say "when you guys hired me you did not say I will have to do this." ---Don't get me wrong, I am in for money and I don't accept people screwing around with me and passing me work that is not mine. However, I am talking about stepping up to the plate when it is needed to get the job done. That is what I pay top dollar for. Are you trying to say that my boss will be unhappy that I troubled him with one less problem? I have been up in the chain and an employee. If you can't handle being a boss, can't say developers do this or that. "I suck because they do too much work and don't bother me with it" - that just seems like crap to me. I think this can only be discussed over a beer.
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didimitrov wrote:
Good developers can fix their computers
Opinion. No different then my saying good developers don't use m$.
didimitrov wrote:
I know how much time it takes to fix a particular error.
This only counts if it is an error you recognize.
didimitrov wrote:
and I am sure this is true for most developers who really care about their art
I am sure that developers who really are about their art don't use .NET. See, another opinion.
If it moves, compile it
I am not a .NET developer. However, it is a tool. Just like you have a hammer, drill, and a screw driver. A language is a tool, rather than a law you live by. You use whatever suits the project and will yield the most elegant solution. That, however, is by itself a thread so I will cut it here. You are also wright that I would know exactly only if I recognize the error. Most of the times thought you can see an error an you can estimate how bad it is. That is all it take me to know, that if I have to fix it, I need to let others not that it will take that much additional time, or call a tech to fix it and ask him to bring me a laptop so I can keep working. I respect your opinion and I believe that developers should know how to fix their machines, but should not fix them unless it is cheaper, time wise, to fix it than to call a tech support to handle it. Purely cost-benefit analysis.
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I am not a .NET developer. However, it is a tool. Just like you have a hammer, drill, and a screw driver. A language is a tool, rather than a law you live by. You use whatever suits the project and will yield the most elegant solution. That, however, is by itself a thread so I will cut it here. You are also wright that I would know exactly only if I recognize the error. Most of the times thought you can see an error an you can estimate how bad it is. That is all it take me to know, that if I have to fix it, I need to let others not that it will take that much additional time, or call a tech to fix it and ask him to bring me a laptop so I can keep working. I respect your opinion and I believe that developers should know how to fix their machines, but should not fix them unless it is cheaper, time wise, to fix it than to call a tech support to handle it. Purely cost-benefit analysis.
I respect your opinion as well. I'm not for or against any one language. I was just using the .net as an example. I use several languages. I think a developer should know how to fix his/her machine. I don't usually have an issue with my own hardware, or linux stuff. If I do I know how to fix it. I am working to learn how to do the ms stuff, but I don't know it yet. All that stuff means to me , is I'm not the target of the thread. Not being the target, does not mean I can't debate :D I don't think that a developer necessarily needs to know how to fix his computer. I certainly don't think less of him if he doesn't. To me, they are two different areas. That's why I joined the conversation ;)
If it moves, compile it
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Ok I think you are dead wrong on that one. Bossed can delegate, but if I am your boss and you call me every time you have a small problem, you are wasting my time. There are a lot of caveats here. -size of company -culture of the company -what do you mean by boss --dev manager or an owner ---If you are really small, job description don't matter and the boss is trying to build a business, which involves more than just dealing with a bunch of developers who say this is not in my job description. That is why start-ups don't hire such developers, or at least try to avoid that. ---If the company goes to 20-30 techs, they will have dev managers with maybe team leaders, depending on how it is structured. Still within your team, you can't just say "when you guys hired me you did not say I will have to do this." ---Don't get me wrong, I am in for money and I don't accept people screwing around with me and passing me work that is not mine. However, I am talking about stepping up to the plate when it is needed to get the job done. That is what I pay top dollar for. Are you trying to say that my boss will be unhappy that I troubled him with one less problem? I have been up in the chain and an employee. If you can't handle being a boss, can't say developers do this or that. "I suck because they do too much work and don't bother me with it" - that just seems like crap to me. I think this can only be discussed over a beer.
:beer: My point was just to state another opinion. I thought it was strong to call a developer lazy and phrase it as "hiding behind the contract". So , I countered with an equal opinion from the oposite view. This does not mean that it is my view. I work for a small company. There is no job description. You do what you are a capable of, and learn what you are not. If the company needs something, anyone who can do it is welcomed and encouraged. And, I like that environment.
If it moves, compile it
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My Win7 PC never blue screens but we have 2 devs who's computers blue screen all the time, almost daily. One watches bootleg dvds all day and the other plugs his iPhone into his USB port so I think they bring it on themselves.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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That's fair. And as I said, shouldn't they know how to fix them? Whether they do or not, they should at least know how.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
That's fair. And as I said, shouldn't they know how to fix them? Whether they do or not, they should at least know how.
If there is no need then the is no reason, excluding personal (non-paid) interest to do so. Employees have (or should) tasks to complete and shouldn't be learning stuff that they will not have a need to know.
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:beer: My point was just to state another opinion. I thought it was strong to call a developer lazy and phrase it as "hiding behind the contract". So , I countered with an equal opinion from the oposite view. This does not mean that it is my view. I work for a small company. There is no job description. You do what you are a capable of, and learn what you are not. If the company needs something, anyone who can do it is welcomed and encouraged. And, I like that environment.
If it moves, compile it
I agree with you. I might have generalized too much just like the title of the thread :) Nice discussing it with you. Di... out
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There was this one time when I created a desktop shortcut on a Windows server only to have users complain that there is no shortcut. Ofcourse, what I had not thought about was different people use different logins and I should have placed the shortcut at the appropriate location. :-O
SG Aham Brahmasmi!
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Does it drive anyone else bonkers when developers keep complaining about their windows PC blue screening? If you know how to program why can't you figure out how to fix your own computer, or at least start researching?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
I know how to fix it! Reboot and ignore the error. Of course, now I don't see blue screens anymore with my newest (2010) laptop. If I walk away and then try to reconnect and it won't let me type in my password or it won't accept the enter key. I know how to fix that too. There's this little button with white light coming out of it. Almost a full circle with a vertical bar through the gap in the circle. You hold it down (more... more), the pc dies, press it once more, all better. Of course any software that doesn't automatically save my work, is gone... (work, not software)
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Believe it or not, some so called professional programmers haven’t a clue how to manage their own development tools let alone manage their PC. I can name half a dozen here. All programmers ought to know how to piece together their machine from parts.
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Does it drive anyone else bonkers when developers keep complaining about their windows PC blue screening? If you know how to program why can't you figure out how to fix your own computer, or at least start researching?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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HuntrCkr wrote:
Programmers that complain about BSOD and PC's malfunctioning are like the mechanic that can't even tell you what's wrong with his own car. Would you trust that mechanic to fix YOUR car...... I didn't think so!
It's not quite the same thing. It's more like the guys at the mechanic shop saying they can't air brush the image you asked for onto your car, or repair the body because both of those require specialists. Very very few mechanic shops can do that. There are plenty of mechanic shops that can replace a transmition, but not rebuild it. To rebuild it, you would need someone who knows that particular specialty. Also like the oil change people saying they can't change the exhaust manifold and give you a new exhaust system.
HuntrCkr wrote:
So why should I trust that kind of programmer to write decent software?!? :confused:
I don't think the ability to trouble shoot the OS has anything to do with writing software, unless the os's code is available to look at.
HuntrCkr wrote:
Programmers that complain about BSOD and PC's malfunctioning are like the mechanic that can't even tell you what's wrong with his own car.
BSOD ... doesn't happen to me , I use Linux. If it happens at work, I'm completely lost. Doesn't have a thing to do with my writing software.
If it moves, compile it
loctrice wrote:
It's not quite the same thing.
It's more like the guys at the mechanic shop saying they can't air brush the image you asked for onto your car, or repair the body because both of those require specialists. Very very few mechanic shops can do that.
There are plenty of mechanic shops that can replace a transmition, but not rebuild it. To rebuild it, you would need someone who knows that particular specialty.
Also like the oil change people saying they can't change the exhaust manifold and give you a new exhaust system.Well, didn't address what I said at all, but OK... What I said is that the mechanic should at the very least know what went wrong, in other words, my transmission blew. Not that he should be able to rebuild it. Of course that is a specialty, just as configuring server hardware, or setting up Storage Area Networks, or migrating Active Directory is a specialty. You are saying that solving a driver problem is a specialty, when in fact any IT Tech with 3 months experience could do it.
loctrice wrote:
I don't think the ability to trouble shoot the OS has anything to do with writing software, unless the os's code is available to look at.
Apparently, our opinion differs ;)
loctrice wrote:
BSOD ... doesn't happen to me , I use Linux. If it happens at work, I'm completely lost.
So let's not confuse the issue of being able, and lack of interest. As a Linux user, you have no interest in Windows problems. And most Windows users couldn't care less if your WiFi driver for your new laptop doesn't work in Linux. I use both, and run servers on both. Each has its place, its purpose and its flaws. I know how to trace problems on both, and know how to code for both platforms.
loctrice wrote:
unless the os's code is available to look at.
And Linux kernel source being available to look at hardly helps to debug a driver problem. Maybe for the guy that wrote it, but definitely not for the user. Error messages + Google = Happy computing. Try it :laugh:
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S Houghtelin wrote:
I do repairs and charge other people though, I used to do it as favors but they keep coming back for more freebies every time their stupid kid visits a porn site.
My solution would be to fix the kid. And I don't mean by making him (or her) less stupid.
I'm not a programmer but I play one at the office
Depending on the 'kid' and how familiar I am with the family. I will have a talk with them when I return the computer. I tell them that the internet is like real life and when you go to the bad side of town you run the risk of either getting mugged or get a bad "virus". Then I would follw that up with "next time I will tell your parents". That takes care of most of them. The 40 year old "kid" however was a totaly different issue. I suggestesd to Mom that she get kiddo his own computer. This kid is the reason I started charging.
It was broke, so I fixed it.
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S Houghtelin wrote:
I'd rather spend 20 hours on a fix than pay some kid to pull out all the cards and say "I dunno" and charge me $75 to reformat my drive.
I go by another philosophy, when my computer is sick, I may spend 1-2 hours looking into the problem. Research, re-install drivers and the what not... However, if after a short time, I will format and re-install. Spending 20 hours costs way more than the additional few hours to re-install. And throughout the years, I have gotten really skilled in organizing my important file by backing up to another drive or machine, burn a ROM in cases of important data like tax returns. Hey, the benefits would be maybe time to upgrade OS (although I still run XP and don't intend to switch), or just to have a super clean machine and just re-install the apps I need when I need them. And relocate the Desktop to another drive. Simple and easy peezy.
I was being just a bit facetious when I wrote that. I sure the fellows at the big box repair facilities do a fine job reformatting the drives and reinstalling the OS. As a life long do-it-yourselfer I’ve learned to repair just about anything. I’ve also learned to do all my own maintenance. However reformatting the drive every time something goes wrong teaches people how to reformat the drive. To me this is analogous to putting a new engine in a car every time something doesn’t work. For myself part of the adventure is learning how to fix the problem. When I learned to repair computers they used to cost several thousands of dollars and as a technician it was my job to troubleshoot the beasts to component level. This did not just involve swapping parts but actually finding which memory IC chip needed to be replaced. Back then (Mid 80’s early 90’s) it did warrant the cost. I don’t troubleshoot to that level any more that would be just ridiculous. As a programmer or developer I enjoy solving the issues without having to reformat. There are times that I do need to just that, but as a last resort. When I'm at work, I tell our tech what I think the problem is and he'll fix it. (Sometimes they've come to me for advice)
It was broke, so I fixed it.
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Does it drive anyone else bonkers when developers keep complaining about their windows PC blue screening? If you know how to program why can't you figure out how to fix your own computer, or at least start researching?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
It pisses me off. Can you imagine a developer in a high position that does not know how to setup regiona settings and make his keyboard right? Can you imagine how annoying it is seeing him always looking for these characters when trying to show you something: ":", ".", "/"? It blows me away.
"To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems" - Homer Simpson "Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction." ― Francis Picabia
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Does it drive anyone else bonkers when developers keep complaining about their windows PC blue screening? If you know how to program why can't you figure out how to fix your own computer, or at least start researching?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.