Memory Leaks Suck
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Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: Not only did this get my customer off my back, but the manufacturer actually fixed the leak (eventually). It must not have been an HP printer. HP only supports their printers for one day, and then they release a new model, dropping support for their "legacy" hardware in process... ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
You're right. It wasn't an HP. It was a Lexmark. HP printer drivers are notoriously leaky, and HP support couldn't give a damn. Their idea of testing a printer driver is to print a couple of pages from Word, and if nothing crashes then the driver passes. When the HP4050 first came out back in 1998 it included a driver that leaked ~1MB every 100 pages printed which caused me and my company a whole load of sh*t.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
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Tim Smith wrote: Too good to be useful? Don't be silly. They have saved me tons of time. So, you are in favor of letting the technolog handle the memory-leak problem, right? Now, comparing the following two options: 1. Write a C++ app that has a lot of memory leaks, and then buy a tool like Purify to find the leaks and plug them. 2. Write a .NET app that is impossible to have a memory leak. Nah, only an idiot will choose 2, it's too damn easy! ;P
Or 1. Write a well-written C++ app, and handle memory yourself, so you know exactly what it's doing 2. Write a .NET app and just hide in a corner and pretend the memory issue doesn't exist at all -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit!
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Vagif Abilov wrote: But why, John? VB - You gotta be kidding me. I actually have to tell you *why* I wouldn't use VB? Java - Because of javascript. Anything that has a scripting version has gotta be as big of a piece of shit as the scripting version. Besides, it's slower than a segway... .NET - Microsoft proprietary bullshit. I wouldn't write a "managed" C++ app on a bet (unless it involves my current employment). Can you say "VB wrapped in C++"? ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
OK, I'll explain myself. VB - You gotta be kidding me. I actually have to tell you *why* I wouldn't use VB? No, I didn't mean VB. I'm with about this one :) Java - Because of javascript. I didn't mean Java either. .NET - Microsoft proprietary bullshit. I wouldn't write a "managed" C++ app on a bet (unless it involves my current employment). Can you say "VB wrapped in C++"? No, I don't think C# has anything with VB wrapped in C++. The more I work with C#, the more I'm convinced with its elegancy and efficiency. And they're even working on generics! I've been using STL for some time but still am not able to declare map iterator without syntax error at first attempt. Yes, .NET comes with non-deterministic memory management, but as soon I realized it was managing it well, I let it do it for me. Вагиф Абилов MCP (Visual C++) Oslo, Norway Hex is for sissies. Real men use binary. And the most hardcore types use only zeros - uppercase zeros and lowercase zeros. Tomasz Sowinski
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At least with C++ we know where the memory leaks are!
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
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At least with C++ we know WHAT memory leaks are! well hell doesn't want you and heaven is full. Tom Waits
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Or 1. Write a well-written C++ app, and handle memory yourself, so you know exactly what it's doing 2. Write a .NET app and just hide in a corner and pretend the memory issue doesn't exist at all -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit!
benjymous wrote: 1. Write a well-written C++ app, and handle memory yourself, so you know exactly what it's doing Yes! That's more like a C++ cowboy. I have no argument with people who have so much confidence in them. But don't forget, Mr. Tim Smith isn't so confident, he would rather trust Purify to find all the leaks.
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At least with C++ we know WHAT memory leaks are! well hell doesn't want you and heaven is full. Tom Waits
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Hel wrote: At least with C++ we know WHAT memory leaks are! How about: At least with C++ we have memory leaks! :laugh: :laugh:
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benjymous wrote: 1. Write a well-written C++ app, and handle memory yourself, so you know exactly what it's doing Yes! That's more like a C++ cowboy. I have no argument with people who have so much confidence in them. But don't forget, Mr. Tim Smith isn't so confident, he would rather trust Purify to find all the leaks.
That's just silly. Which would you trust more: Developer one who says "Yes, my code hasn't got any memory leaks. I know because I'm a good programmer, and I wouldn't make mistakes like that" or Developer two who says "Yes, my code hasn't got any memory leaks, because I rigourously tested it with a wide range of tools" -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit!
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Black Cat wrote: Hmm, too illogical for a C++ programmer Nah, that's correct. Would "We are able to know where the memory leaks are" be better? To remember: to be attentive to Mr/Miss/Mrs Black Cat logic and expression ;P
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
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benjymous wrote: 1. Write a well-written C++ app, and handle memory yourself, so you know exactly what it's doing Yes! That's more like a C++ cowboy. I have no argument with people who have so much confidence in them. But don't forget, Mr. Tim Smith isn't so confident, he would rather trust Purify to find all the leaks.
That's not anything like what he said, nor even implied. He said he uses Purify to find memory leaks that would otherwise may well have taken him days to locate on his own. That's not a lack of confidence, that's using the right tool for the right job. Stop saying stupid shit... ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
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KaЯl wrote: Would "We are able to know where the memory leaks are" be better? Better than what? Better than "Having no memory leak at all"? ;)
"Having no memory leak at all" or "Having no memory leak visible, hoping the OS will clean" ? ;P When an application becomes more complex than "Hello Word", Garbage collectors suck !
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
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Looks like I can just call Server.Redirect("Mr. Tim Smith") and let you two C++ programmers talk it over. ;)
What is there to discuss - I'm just agreeing with him that using extra tools to help bulletproof your software and remove bugs is a good thing, rather than a sign of a bad programmer. Ok, in an ideal world programmers would write code that worked flawlessly first time, but we know that that isn't going to happen -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit!
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That's just silly. Which would you trust more: Developer one who says "Yes, my code hasn't got any memory leaks. I know because I'm a good programmer, and I wouldn't make mistakes like that" or Developer two who says "Yes, my code hasn't got any memory leaks, because I rigourously tested it with a wide range of tools" -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit!
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Looks like I can just call Server.Redirect("Mr. Tim Smith") and let you two C++ programmers talk it over. ;)
You might think you're funny, but I, for one, wish you would stop acting like a dick. To the CP old-timers - yeah I know.... "pot = kettle = black;" ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
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That's not anything like what he said, nor even implied. He said he uses Purify to find memory leaks that would otherwise may well have taken him days to locate on his own. That's not a lack of confidence, that's using the right tool for the right job. Stop saying stupid shit... ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: He said he uses Purify to find memory leaks that would otherwise may well have taken him days to locate on his own. That's not a lack of confidence, that's using the right tool for the right job. So you agree that C++ alone is not the right tool, and you have to add things like Purify when there are too many hard to track memory leaks. However, as soon as I mention .NET your eyes are turning red like a texas bull. No one is saying .NET is perfect here, if you calm down and read things carefully. .NET, VB, C++, and Java are just tools to me, and I choose them according to the job at hand. So there you go, we may be in complete agreement. ;) John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: Stop saying stupid shit... You have been providing some of the most entertaining posts to CodeProject, but I am really disappointed this time, the staggering layers of stupidty in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels. Do I get the honor of being quoted in your signature? Please, please! ;P
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: Memory Leaks Suck Is any of the following looking more attractive to you today? .NET, Java, VB ;P
Nope, you can have memory leaks in all of those as well. In fact, I just recently saw a vendor's demo for a spiffy diagnostic tool used to locate and fix memory leaks in Java. GC is useful, but it's not a silver bullet, and the sooner people realize that the better. William E. Kempf
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: He said he uses Purify to find memory leaks that would otherwise may well have taken him days to locate on his own. That's not a lack of confidence, that's using the right tool for the right job. So you agree that C++ alone is not the right tool, and you have to add things like Purify when there are too many hard to track memory leaks. However, as soon as I mention .NET your eyes are turning red like a texas bull. No one is saying .NET is perfect here, if you calm down and read things carefully. .NET, VB, C++, and Java are just tools to me, and I choose them according to the job at hand. So there you go, we may be in complete agreement. ;) John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: Stop saying stupid shit... You have been providing some of the most entertaining posts to CodeProject, but I am really disappointed this time, the staggering layers of stupidty in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels. Do I get the honor of being quoted in your signature? Please, please! ;P
You seem to be misguided on several counts, however: 1) It's not that difficult to manage memory correctly in C++ using tools like boost::shared_ptr. 2) There are full GC systems available for C++, if you prefer. 3) All of the languages you list are still prone to memory leaks, and the idea that GC makes this impossible has actually lead to there being a LOT of poorly designed and implemented libraries in said languages. You can only "choose them according to the job at hand" if you actually understand the pros and cons of the choices. Sounds like you don't. Further, it sounds like instead of promoting the "right tool for the right job" school of thought, you prefer to at least hint that C++ is never the right tool. William E. Kempf
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Tim Smith wrote: Too good to be useful? Don't be silly. They have saved me tons of time. So, you are in favor of letting the technolog handle the memory-leak problem, right? Now, comparing the following two options: 1. Write a C++ app that has a lot of memory leaks, and then buy a tool like Purify to find the leaks and plug them. 2. Write a .NET app that is impossible to have a memory leak. Nah, only an idiot will choose 2, it's too damn easy! ;P
By using that logic all cars on the road should be able to go only 60 MPH so there can be no speeding. Race cars should be limited to 75 as to eliminate high speed accidents. Give me all the rope and if I hang myself its my fault. Training wheels are for babies. Richard I must have liberty Withal, as large a charter as the wind, To blow on whom I please. As You Like It. Act ii. Sc. 7. William Shakespeare
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: He said he uses Purify to find memory leaks that would otherwise may well have taken him days to locate on his own. That's not a lack of confidence, that's using the right tool for the right job. So you agree that C++ alone is not the right tool, and you have to add things like Purify when there are too many hard to track memory leaks. However, as soon as I mention .NET your eyes are turning red like a texas bull. No one is saying .NET is perfect here, if you calm down and read things carefully. .NET, VB, C++, and Java are just tools to me, and I choose them according to the job at hand. So there you go, we may be in complete agreement. ;) John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: Stop saying stupid shit... You have been providing some of the most entertaining posts to CodeProject, but I am really disappointed this time, the staggering layers of stupidty in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels. Do I get the honor of being quoted in your signature? Please, please! ;P
Black Cat wrote: So you agree that C++ alone is not the right tool, and you have to add things like Purify when there are too many hard to track memory leaks. No, I didn't say that, and I most certainly don't agree with that. C++ is the right tool for the job, but since you insist on being pedantic, the debugger is the tool we're talking about - NOT the compiler nor the language. Given that no programmer has EVER written bug-free code the first time, Purify is a good tool for hunting down nasty memory leaks that are not easily found with the *debugger*. In my particular case, the leak I was looking for was right there in front of me, but being completely familiar with the code, I overlooked the obvious possibilities. Again, this wasn't the fault of the compiler, nor even the debugger, but was me making assumptions. Black Cat wrote: However, as soon as I mention .NET your eyes are turning red like a texas bull. You want Microsoft to lead you around by the nose, be my guest, but suggesting to a C++ programmer that using a tool that hides memory leaks from him or makes too many assumptions about what he really wants to do is just a crock of horse shit. ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends