Microsoft Formally Ordered to Carry Java
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I don't understand this at all. If someone could enlighten me I would be greatful. If I remember correctly, did not SUN sue MS over this issue several years ago about MS making changes to Java? Didn't SUN ultimately win and restrict MS to delivering a certain version of their app for a certain number of years. Now SUN wants them to include an updated version when previously MS was restricted by what version they could distribute. And for that matter why does SUN have the right to include their products in the OS. Does that mean I have a right to include mine in the OS? I'm hopelessly confused and I wish someone could shed some light on this issue for me. I know I'm missing something and looking for some help understanding the issues. Thanks
Sun = Java = "You want Penguins with that?" = GOOD. Microsoft = Bill Gates = takes money and soul and firstborn = BAD. -------------------------------- Calculating.... Formatting Results.... ABOVE NEWS = GOOD NEWS. ;)
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I don't understand this at all. If someone could enlighten me I would be greatful. If I remember correctly, did not SUN sue MS over this issue several years ago about MS making changes to Java? Didn't SUN ultimately win and restrict MS to delivering a certain version of their app for a certain number of years. Now SUN wants them to include an updated version when previously MS was restricted by what version they could distribute. And for that matter why does SUN have the right to include their products in the OS. Does that mean I have a right to include mine in the OS? I'm hopelessly confused and I wish someone could shed some light on this issue for me. I know I'm missing something and looking for some help understanding the issues. Thanks
ez2 wrote: issue several years ago about MS making changes to Java MS was dsitributing a virtual machine able to produce native code (jexegen.exe) unlike Sun's (rotten) run everywhere paradigm (ie interpreted bytecode instead of native), and also MS had embedded COM and all the core Windows stuff into the VM, leaving customers (developers) which no choice but implement a code compatible with the MS JVM, and another for the Sun JVM. Since 90% of developers were already targeting the Windows platform, it sure made a lot of harm to Sun, hence the trial. But where Sun went wrong IMHO is they didn't build the pieces together (J2EE) fast enough, while at the same time MS was triple speeding in pushing that old stuff through rebranding into something new we now all know as .NET (and admittedly hired several key Sun's personel for this purpose).
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Ok getting a little bit of clarity on the issue. But my next question is how can someone force a company to include their competitors software? Once again, (hypothetically speaking) can I force MS to include mine? I'm still missing something and I haven't quite put my finger on it:((
I believe it has something to do with the fact that Microsoft is (or has been declared as) a monopoly. Kind of like, utility companies like telephones and stuff can sometimes be forced to open up their infrastructure to competitors. That's my take on it at least, I am no legal expert. :-O You can pick your friends, and you can pick your nose, but you can't pick your friend's nose.
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lol cheers, Chris Maunder
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Ok getting a little bit of clarity on the issue. But my next question is how can someone force a company to include their competitors software? Once again, (hypothetically speaking) can I force MS to include mine? I'm still missing something and I haven't quite put my finger on it:((
When Java/JVM came and became popular instanly, Microsoft (just like other companies) has no other option to include it with their OS/IE so that people can use Java applets...(early 90s) Problem started when Microsoft started shipping it's own JVM along with Sun JVM. Later they came with Visual J++ which soley relies on MS JVM. That triggered the law suits from Sun. Rest you know it... Kant Sonork-100.28114 Don't :beer: and Drive.
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http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/030121/microsoft_5.html[^] WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A federal judge on Tuesday formally ordered Microsoft Corp. (NasdaqNM:MSFT - News) to distribute Sun Microsystems Inc.'s (NasdaqNM:SUNW - News) Java programming language in its Windows operating system cheers, Chris Maunder
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http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/030121/microsoft_5.html[^] WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A federal judge on Tuesday formally ordered Microsoft Corp. (NasdaqNM:MSFT - News) to distribute Sun Microsystems Inc.'s (NasdaqNM:SUNW - News) Java programming language in its Windows operating system cheers, Chris Maunder
Last time I checked, Microsoft did not ship windows with ANY of my software included. This is a clear case of Microsoft building a monopoly and causing me to unfairly have to rely on people wanting my software enough to source it for themselves. Those dirty dogs. Is there no depth they will not lower themselves to !!!! Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Last time I checked, Microsoft did not ship windows with ANY of my software included. This is a clear case of Microsoft building a monopoly and causing me to unfairly have to rely on people wanting my software enough to source it for themselves. Those dirty dogs. Is there no depth they will not lower themselves to !!!! Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002you might not be so glib if you had signed a contract with MS which they then violated. you might actually feel that you are owed something. -c
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you might not be so glib if you had signed a contract with MS which they then violated. you might actually feel that you are owed something. -c
Hmmm. Do you speak from experience? Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka -
Hmmm. Do you speak from experience? Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka MuraokaMarc Clifton wrote: Hmmm. Do you speak from experience? Awaiting Chris' response myself, but I believe he was referring to the Sun Java license that MS breached which caused the whole lawsuit. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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Last time I checked, Microsoft did not ship windows with ANY of my software included. This is a clear case of Microsoft building a monopoly and causing me to unfairly have to rely on people wanting my software enough to source it for themselves. Those dirty dogs. Is there no depth they will not lower themselves to !!!! Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: Last time I checked, Microsoft did not ship windows with ANY of my software included. This is a clear case of Microsoft building a monopoly and causing me to unfairly have to rely on people wanting my software enough to source it for themselves. Those dirty dogs. Is there no depth they will not lower themselves to !!!! Recebtly created a new standard or language I don't know of Christian? I don't care how crappy Java is (I've never used it) Sun created it, Microsoft licensed it. Then butchered it and broke it's run anywhere philosophy. So they fucked up and have to live with it now. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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Actually, Sun sued MS because MS was seen as the dominant force in software, and as such was exploiting the sun standard by changing the specs and selling it as a better java than java. MS was ordered to stop shipping their own JVM so they did, and on the way home, decided not to ship Sun's either. Sun saw this as a thread to their pet project because they were afraid they would lose their market if MS doesn't ship it, so they sued them to ship the sun JVM. The whole problem is that the judge made an ambiguous ruling since it was apparent that he wanted MS to ship the compliant JVM, but didn't expressly state that in the ruling, so MS followed the letter of the ruling instead of the intent. They succeeded in two things - costing Sun even more money in legal fees, and not really looking like the bad guy in all this (which didn't pass muster with me, nor anyone else with half a brain). ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
It's just a shame that the customer is the last one to be considered. How about Microsoft, instead of playing legal games, just include the damned software for the benefit of its customers. "The folly of man is that he dreams of what he can never achieve rather than dream of what he can."
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you might not be so glib if you had signed a contract with MS which they then violated. you might actually feel that you are owed something. -c
Perhaps, but why frist sue MS to STOP them distributing their JVM ( a move I agree with ), and THEN as a seperate issue sue for them to redistribute yours ? Why was that an afterthought ? Surely if there is a contract then the first lawsuit would have sought to uphold it ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Christian Graus wrote: Last time I checked, Microsoft did not ship windows with ANY of my software included. This is a clear case of Microsoft building a monopoly and causing me to unfairly have to rely on people wanting my software enough to source it for themselves. Those dirty dogs. Is there no depth they will not lower themselves to !!!! Recebtly created a new standard or language I don't know of Christian? I don't care how crappy Java is (I've never used it) Sun created it, Microsoft licensed it. Then butchered it and broke it's run anywhere philosophy. So they fucked up and have to live with it now. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
Michael Martin wrote: Recebtly created a new standard or language I don't know of Christian? I've created plenty of standards, but no-one seems to be adopting them..... Michael Martin wrote: I don't care how crappy Java is It's too much like C# for Microsoft to claim it's no good. Michael Martin wrote: So they f***ed up and have to live with it now. Microsoft did the wrong thing when they added to Java. But stopping them from distributing a bad version is a world apart from making them distribute it at all, and if there was a contract in place, the first lawsuit should have dealt with it. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Hmmm. Do you speak from experience? Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraokano. as the other reply says, MS and Sun had a contract. apparently MS broke it. -c
Zzzzz...
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Michael Martin wrote: Recebtly created a new standard or language I don't know of Christian? I've created plenty of standards, but no-one seems to be adopting them..... Michael Martin wrote: I don't care how crappy Java is It's too much like C# for Microsoft to claim it's no good. Michael Martin wrote: So they f***ed up and have to live with it now. Microsoft did the wrong thing when they added to Java. But stopping them from distributing a bad version is a world apart from making them distribute it at all, and if there was a contract in place, the first lawsuit should have dealt with it. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: I've created plenty of standards, but no-one seems to be adopting them..... Then your keeping them secret, I would happily adopt them, but I don't know about them. Christian Graus wrote: Microsoft did the wrong thing when they added to Java. But stopping them from distributing a bad version is a world apart from making them distribute it at all, and if there was a contract in place, the first lawsuit should have dealt with it. True, but if my memory of a John Simmons post is correct. The first ruling was worded badly and Microsoft complied with the wording and not the intent of the ruling. The second ruling seems to be redressing this fact and getting Microsoft to do what it should have. Did you notice my great typing and new word creation skills? Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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Christian Graus wrote: I've created plenty of standards, but no-one seems to be adopting them..... Then your keeping them secret, I would happily adopt them, but I don't know about them. Christian Graus wrote: Microsoft did the wrong thing when they added to Java. But stopping them from distributing a bad version is a world apart from making them distribute it at all, and if there was a contract in place, the first lawsuit should have dealt with it. True, but if my memory of a John Simmons post is correct. The first ruling was worded badly and Microsoft complied with the wording and not the intent of the ruling. The second ruling seems to be redressing this fact and getting Microsoft to do what it should have. Did you notice my great typing and new word creation skills? Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
Michael Martin wrote: Then your keeping them secret, I would happily adopt them, but I don't know about them. That's coz you never call me :-) Michael Martin wrote: Did you notice my great typing and new word creation skills? Word creation ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Sean Cundiff wrote: but surely they mean the Sun JVM I think any Sun-compatible JVM will do. :beer:
#include <stddisclaimer> If this is the case I hope Microsoft includes IBM's VM. While neither side has been the angel in this dispute Sun is really trying to take advantage of the trial and anti-Microsoft sentiment to cover for the fact that they completely dropped the ball w.r.t client-side Java through no fault other than their own. As I've said elsewhere, the problem is that Sun never created a (client) killer app in Java, which is what they should have been trying to do since day one. This is true for any platform, and Sun trying to forcibly pave the way for Java on clients without a compelling app is like the proverbial cart pulling the horse. But they're too blinded by their Microsoft jealousy to see this; they would rather lay low, play the victim, and sue. I can think of several small, medium, and large scale consumer apps that Sun could have easily written in Java, and if they publicized/pushed them correctly millions of users would not only have the latest version of Java, but could have a favorable* experience directly associated with those apps and the Java brand. (* My opinion is that client side Java apps are still kludgy, slow, and inconsistent with the native platform as compared to Win32 or .NET apps, so a favorible user experience would be contingent on Sun making client side Java not suck, but the rest of my point still stands.) The above is my personal opinion only, yadda yadda. I was actually a big fan of Java in the beginning and almost went to work for Sun.
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Michael Martin wrote: Then your keeping them secret, I would happily adopt them, but I don't know about them. That's coz you never call me :-) Michael Martin wrote: Did you notice my great typing and new word creation skills? Word creation ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: That's coz you never call me :) You don't have those catchy ads on the late night telly though do you. :wtf: Christian Graus wrote: Word creation ? Recebtly. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002