American Taxes 101 (an analogy)
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I though you would find the following interesting. How Taxes Work.... Keep in mind that 10% of the population pays ~69% of the taxes, ie: those "rich" people making over 92k per year (like a firefighter in Marin county). Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand. Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this. The first four men -- the poorest -- would pay nothing; the fifth would pay $1, the sixth would pay $3, the seventh $7, the eighth $12, the ninth $18, and the tenth man -- the richest -- would pay $59. That's what they decided to do. The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement -- until one day, the owner threw them a curve (in tax language-- a tax cut). "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20." So now dinner for the ten only cost $80.00. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six -- the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share?" The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, Then the fifth man and The sixth man would end up being PAID to eat their meal. So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay. And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the seventh paid $5, the eighth paid $9, the ninth paid $12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of $52 instead of his earlier $59. Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man, but he, pointing to the tenth. "But he got $7!". "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man, "I only saved a dollar, too, ........It's unfair that he got seven times more than me!". That's true!" shouted the seventh man, why should he get $7 back when I got only $2?" The wealthy get all the breaks!". Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!" The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. T
Get rid of Income Tax ... It's too easy to hide income. I say we implement a national sales tax in place of income tax, it's much more difficult to hide what you're buying. The role of the IRS would then be relegated to making sure companies and businesses were stating their sales correctly, thereby leaving the individual out of the loop. Another benefit would be that the incentive to lie about income in order to inflate stock prices would be reduced. No tax on necessity items like unprepared food. -Sean ---- Shag a Lizard
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>Class warfare exists because few people have Class warefare exists because it gets politians elected. Class warefare exists because it appeals to a section of poor people that like feeling "victemized". As a Marine I earned ~13k a year with free room and board (If you call frequenting sleeping bag and eating cold MRE room and board). As a voulenteer for AmeriCorps I earned about the same wihout the room and board. Now I earn six figures, and during everyone of those periods I never felt like the rich owed me anything.
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Michael Martin wrote: Be prepared for the capitalistic short sighted Americans to start calling you a Communist. With these criteria even the Prince Charles is a communist :eek: The vision changes when looking from the other side of the mirror. Everyone should live this once, but no more than once
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
KaЯl wrote: With these criteria even the Prince Charles is a communist :eek: I've just been in a few of these types of conversation on CP over the past couple of months. Many from the US seem to think the government should pull it's head in and let the people handle everything. They say that a community will see one of their own having problems, pull together and help that individual/family out. And with this happening all over and people helping cause they want too not because the government has taken their money and said they had too, all would be well. They then go on to say how this is how it happend back in their parents and grandparents day. Forgetting that back then the population was much smaller and people actually gave a fuck about one another. Now I see the US as, fuck you buddy, I'm all right jack, every man for himself and walking over the top of everyone else to get to where you want to be. If you don't believe in this method, then you are communist who wants to live in Europe and be over governed and have you freedom removed. I know it's all horseshit, but that is what I have seen expressed. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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Marc Clifton wrote: It would, instead, be better to distribute $2 among the 10 men. After all, the constitution says that all men (and women, I suppose!) are created equal. Wouldn't that be more like communism? created equal does not mean they are equal throughout their lives. It simply means that the law should not treat them differently when justice is being served. Any other interpretation suggests you and i are one and same, which of course we aren't. BW "Gandalf. Yes. That is what they used to call me. Gandalf the Grey. *I* am Gandalf the White." - Gandalf the White
brianwelsch wrote: created equal does not mean they are equal throughout their lives. It simply means that the law should not treat them differently when justice is being served. Agreed, except the "simply". Anyone should also have the same possibilities (for example about the access to education).
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
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Cute story. But your analogy is, in my opinion, incorrect. In your story, you are discussing people paying for a meal and making this an analogy to paying taxes. This is incorrect, because taxes are applied to income. Therefore, the first 5 men would be dead of starvation (having no income), the fifth would be eating mac&cheese, the sixth, seventh and eighth would be brown bagging it, the ninth would go to the local deli, and the tenth would be eating at the country club and picking up the tab for the local senator. It would, instead, be better to distribute $2 among the 10 men. After all, the constitution says that all men (and women, I suppose!) are created equal. Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka MuraokaMarc Clifton wrote: says that all men (and women, I suppose!) are created equal. But they don't stay that way. Richard I must have liberty Withal, as large a charter as the wind, To blow on whom I please. As You Like It. Act ii. Sc. 7. William Shakespeare
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Cute story. But your analogy is, in my opinion, incorrect. In your story, you are discussing people paying for a meal and making this an analogy to paying taxes. This is incorrect, because taxes are applied to income. Therefore, the first 5 men would be dead of starvation (having no income), the fifth would be eating mac&cheese, the sixth, seventh and eighth would be brown bagging it, the ninth would go to the local deli, and the tenth would be eating at the country club and picking up the tab for the local senator. It would, instead, be better to distribute $2 among the 10 men. After all, the constitution says that all men (and women, I suppose!) are created equal. Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka MuraokaMarc Clifton wrote: After all, the constitution says that all men (and women, I suppose!) are created equal. Created equal does not mean that the guy across town who: 1) won the lottery, 2) lucked out and is the child of scotch smuggler turned legal, 3) actually worked and achieved something owes anyone anything. Mike
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I was trying to stay within the confines of your analogy, so bringing up welfare income is not fair, but it does prove my point that the analogy is a poor one. :) Regardless of the analogy, I still disagree with your point. Class warfare exists because few people have, and most don't--- The poor, being poor, have few choices. For example, I really struggle with sending my son to private school, which I am grateful I have the choice to do because of my income. But I barely have the choice. The rich should get taxed more, and get less of a tax cut, because it gives more choice to the poor, and takes away significantly less choice from the rich. But this puts it all into the realm of philosophy, which requires thinking, which hasn't been done since the days of the revolution--philosophy, that is. And the few rich people I've met have gotten lucky in the stock market, won the lottery, or inherited their wealth. They certainly didn't work for it, not the way a lot of blue color workers I've seen work. I work for a rich guy (and I'm grateful to have a job, mind you) that doesn't do much besides show up for work and tell other people what to do. That's how he stay rich now. And by paying sh*t wages, some employees (good ones, too) haven't gotten a raise in 5 years, and he's loathed by everyone for his management style. Fortunately, being a consultant, I can avoid all that crap. But he employs a lot of poor (being a boatyard owner), and while they're grateful to have a job, they all feel they are being treated like dogmeat. For example, he spent about $10,000 on gifts to his customers, and $3,000 on bonuses ($100 cash for his 30 employees). (Yes, you can argue business practices...) Furthermore, the rich people I've met (for example, the CEO of a well known satellite manufacturer) couldn't care less about the people working for them. In fact, he knowingly lied to his people for his own personal gain. And I don't know any rich that mow their own lawns. A drive through Beverly Hills can demonstrate that--their all migrant workers doing the gardening. Heck, even I had an illegal alien doing my gardening when I lived in San Diego. Didn't know a person that didn't. Tax 'em to death, I say, because the rich are no longer hard working ethical people that shape the future of this country for the benefit of all (if they ever were). They're bastards, and their sole intent is to put money in their pockets at the expense of the average Joe. Enron, WorldComm, and a slew of others demonstrate th
Marc Clifton wrote: Class warfare exists because few people have, and most don't--- Class warfare exists because: 1) envy 2) Democrats who turned it into an industry, promising someone else what you have if only you'll elect them.
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Get rid of Income Tax ... It's too easy to hide income. I say we implement a national sales tax in place of income tax, it's much more difficult to hide what you're buying. The role of the IRS would then be relegated to making sure companies and businesses were stating their sales correctly, thereby leaving the individual out of the loop. Another benefit would be that the incentive to lie about income in order to inflate stock prices would be reduced. No tax on necessity items like unprepared food. -Sean ---- Shag a Lizard
You do realize how much harder this would hit the poor, don't you? Afterall, a guy working at McDonalds for $10k a year pays no taxes right now. A guy making $1 million probably pays about 40% ($400,000) in income tax. If you switch to a national sales tax (say 20%), then you'll have the guy at McDonalds paying $2k a year in taxes and the guy making $1 million paying $200,000. ------------------------------------------ "Isn't it funny how people say they'll never grow up to be their parents, then one day they look in the mirror and they're moving aircraft carriers into the Gulf region?" - The Onion
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KaЯl wrote: With these criteria even the Prince Charles is a communist :eek: I've just been in a few of these types of conversation on CP over the past couple of months. Many from the US seem to think the government should pull it's head in and let the people handle everything. They say that a community will see one of their own having problems, pull together and help that individual/family out. And with this happening all over and people helping cause they want too not because the government has taken their money and said they had too, all would be well. They then go on to say how this is how it happend back in their parents and grandparents day. Forgetting that back then the population was much smaller and people actually gave a fuck about one another. Now I see the US as, fuck you buddy, I'm all right jack, every man for himself and walking over the top of everyone else to get to where you want to be. If you don't believe in this method, then you are communist who wants to live in Europe and be over governed and have you freedom removed. I know it's all horseshit, but that is what I have seen expressed. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
For what I have understood, we don't apply the good concepts when thinking about the US. We think about them as a country in the european meaning. They are not. A lot of them don't adhere to a collectivity, being a part of it, but substract as individuals a contract, which is the Constitution. They seem to be less a nation than a coalition of interests. It would also explain the power of the lawyers there :)
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
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You say $92K a year is *not* rich? Where do you live? If I were making $92K, I'd be livin' it large here in KY. :cool: As it is, I'm nowhere *near* that, and I still do better than many. You can pick your friends, and you can pick your nose, but you can't pick your friend's nose.
I'm from Dallas and 92K ain't s&^t I can assure you. I would be paying over 20% of my gross ( 92K) just on insurance for my health, car, and home. A decent meal out costs about 45-60 bucks ( not MickeyD's but somewhere decent ). A new set of tires about 450.00. I once calculated that before taxes and anything else I need about 5000.00 a month just to meet bills. Richard I must have liberty Withal, as large a charter as the wind, To blow on whom I please. As You Like It. Act ii. Sc. 7. William Shakespeare
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I though you would find the following interesting. How Taxes Work.... Keep in mind that 10% of the population pays ~69% of the taxes, ie: those "rich" people making over 92k per year (like a firefighter in Marin county). Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand. Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this. The first four men -- the poorest -- would pay nothing; the fifth would pay $1, the sixth would pay $3, the seventh $7, the eighth $12, the ninth $18, and the tenth man -- the richest -- would pay $59. That's what they decided to do. The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement -- until one day, the owner threw them a curve (in tax language-- a tax cut). "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20." So now dinner for the ten only cost $80.00. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six -- the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share?" The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, Then the fifth man and The sixth man would end up being PAID to eat their meal. So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay. And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the seventh paid $5, the eighth paid $9, the ninth paid $12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of $52 instead of his earlier $59. Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man, but he, pointing to the tenth. "But he got $7!". "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man, "I only saved a dollar, too, ........It's unfair that he got seven times more than me!". That's true!" shouted the seventh man, why should he get $7 back when I got only $2?" The wealthy get all the breaks!". Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!" The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. T
This reminds me of a cartoon I read once. (Not much of a fan of Tom Tomorrow, but...) http://www.salon.com/comics/tomo/2002/12/09/tomo/story.jpg[^] ------------------------------------------ "Isn't it funny how people say they'll never grow up to be their parents, then one day they look in the mirror and they're moving aircraft carriers into the Gulf region?" - The Onion
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And usually multiple times. A good rule of thumb is that any time money changes hands, it is taxed. Tim Smith I'm going to patent thought. I have yet to see any prior art.
Unless you are rich enough to pay someone to find the loopholes that help you avoid taxes The tigress is here :-D
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Richard Melton wrote: As a Marine I earned ~13k a year with free room and board (If you call frequenting sleeping bag and eating cold MRE room and board). As a voulenteer for AmeriCorps I earned about the same wihout the room and board. Now I earn six figures, and during everyone of those periods I never felt like the rich owed me anything. Although I wasn't in the armed forces I too started in the shit money and through hard work got it up to six figures. Then the arse fell out of the economy, I had no job but I still had dependant wife and 2 kids plus all the debts and expenses that go with them. Now after 13 months I have a job again though it only pays 52% of what I was on. My debt is now pretty much unsustainable on my income due to my extended unemployment after 15 years constant work. While I don't feel anyone owes me anything, come and talk to if your ever in my situation. Hard work ethics and I'll look after myself attiutudes aren't working. All the companies are either going bust, letting people go, looking for skill sets that don't exist in one person and in the case of shit shovelling jobs wanting experience and umpteen certificates to prove I can to it safely to government standards. Life isn't as rosey or easy as you and Stan (no I haven't seen him in this particular discussion yet) seem to think it is if only you want it. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
You're not the only one. I lost a company to a lawsuit, a wife and what was left to a divorce, all at age 44, and had to start back a < 0. But I had a blast building the company, stayed friends with my ex, rebuilt my career, paid-off lawsuit settlements - blame no one but myself for the problems and keep going forward appreciating the past and enjoying each new morning. Mike
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Government is who you elected so that civil society can function smoothly. When there is a section of society that starves and have no home, they should not be dependent on the "charity" of others. In other words, humans decides that we deem life as precious; and is willing to chip in to make that better for all our fellow humans. Governments came in as a way to make society work by enforcing law and order, and providing a safety net. The taxation laws are what the society as a whole agrees to - to generate revenue for the causes. You do not believe that government should do welfare actions, and probably be left to non-governmental organizations. The problem with that is there is no accountability. I cannot tell a private organization that I am eligible according to teir norms and therefore, they *have* to aid me, and that they cannot deny me help. But, that accountability is possible in the case of the government, which is handling public funds. My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers
One problem with your statement is that the current state of democracy in not very indicative of society. Our beauracracy tends to leave old laws in place without needed change and new laws become inane and inneffective. Our welfare system was created during the great depression at a time of great need, and has been managed to the point of collapse. The people who need help do not get it while others who are just lazy ruin the system. And even those who need help are not totally without blame, like a single mother with multiple kids, she need to take responsibility for her actions and stop having children. Many people who are wealthy would have no problem giving money to a program that works but our current system doesnt. I had no vote into how our current system works, it was setup way before me, and changing the system takes a long time. Just look at social security, I guarantee you if I took the same money and invested it I would make way more than what social security will give me when I retire(if it still exists at all). But I am forced to put money into this hole because most people arent smart enough to save their money. Cleve Littlefield Senior Developer Visual Office
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Thomas George wrote: When you earn more (working more or less - should it matter), you are placed with more responsibility towards your society - and it means taking care of the people, who are down and out. That is a well thought out and good response. Be prepared for the capitalistic short sighted Americans to start calling you a Communist. I think I am more forgiving on this subject than I have been in the past. 13 months out of work after 15 years in the work force will do that to you. Combine that with the fact I am now earning 52% of what I was previously gross and now no technical employer wants to know me as I am out of the technoly curve (that's what they say) I'm not a happy chappy. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
> Be prepared for the capitalistic short sighted Americans Robert Owen came here in 1825 and managed to destroy a thriving community. Babeuf, of course, never managed to put his ideology into play. I won't even go into Lennin's flavor of the world. Once again, I'm not against helping some one out. I am against robbing someone because of their class. I can only go quid pro quo here, but show me a capitalistic socitety (that started out that way) that has gone socialist. Now show me a socialist (in the original and new senses of the word) society that has gone capitalist. Fundamentally, it comes down to if you believe people are the same as they have been for thousands of years, or you believe that mankind has evolved past some sort of "predatory" phase of human development. So far believing the former has done better than the latter. Perfection may be somewhere in between the two.
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KaЯl wrote: With these criteria even the Prince Charles is a communist :eek: I've just been in a few of these types of conversation on CP over the past couple of months. Many from the US seem to think the government should pull it's head in and let the people handle everything. They say that a community will see one of their own having problems, pull together and help that individual/family out. And with this happening all over and people helping cause they want too not because the government has taken their money and said they had too, all would be well. They then go on to say how this is how it happend back in their parents and grandparents day. Forgetting that back then the population was much smaller and people actually gave a fuck about one another. Now I see the US as, fuck you buddy, I'm all right jack, every man for himself and walking over the top of everyone else to get to where you want to be. If you don't believe in this method, then you are communist who wants to live in Europe and be over governed and have you freedom removed. I know it's all horseshit, but that is what I have seen expressed. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
Michael Martin wrote: Now I see the US as, f*** you buddy, I'm all right jack, every man for himself and walking over the top of everyone else to get to where you want to be. I am not sure how the system works where you are but in the USA 50% of the eaarning population pay no income taxes and there's a political party that operates on the premise that if you'll only elect me, I'll give you (pick something). We literally have generations that have not worked and live on welfare. I personally have known, and this is 40 years ago before it got worse, individuals who gave their children to other families so those families could qualify for higher benefits. For what it is worth, I believe in a safety net. Yes, financed by taxes. But not a life financed by taxes. Mike
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Richard Melton wrote: As a Marine I earned ~13k a year with free room and board (If you call frequenting sleeping bag and eating cold MRE room and board). As a voulenteer for AmeriCorps I earned about the same wihout the room and board. Now I earn six figures, and during everyone of those periods I never felt like the rich owed me anything. Although I wasn't in the armed forces I too started in the shit money and through hard work got it up to six figures. Then the arse fell out of the economy, I had no job but I still had dependant wife and 2 kids plus all the debts and expenses that go with them. Now after 13 months I have a job again though it only pays 52% of what I was on. My debt is now pretty much unsustainable on my income due to my extended unemployment after 15 years constant work. While I don't feel anyone owes me anything, come and talk to if your ever in my situation. Hard work ethics and I'll look after myself attiutudes aren't working. All the companies are either going bust, letting people go, looking for skill sets that don't exist in one person and in the case of shit shovelling jobs wanting experience and umpteen certificates to prove I can to it safely to government standards. Life isn't as rosey or easy as you and Stan (no I haven't seen him in this particular discussion yet) seem to think it is if only you want it. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
I don't have children, thats a choice I made. You do. Thats a choice you made. You make your own choices. If you couldn't afford to clothe and feed your children, I would be fore helping you out. I would give you money to fix your car, to pay your past due bills and perhaps to atttend additional training. Rest assured, your life would still suck in some regards, I wouldn't pay your way completely, and you would end up working very very hard what you got.
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Wouldn't that be more like communism? What is wrong with communism (or socialism), except for the fact that it's been abused by a few people because human nature is basically greedy? created equal does not mean they are equal throughout their lives. In my opinion, yes they are. Personally, I wish we had a flat tax system. But of course the gov't wouldn't go for that because, among other reasons, a gazzillion tax accountants, lawyers, and auditors would lose their jobs. Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka MuraokaMarc Clifton wrote: Personally, I wish we had a flat tax system. But of course the gov't wouldn't go for that because, among other reasons, a gazzillion tax accountants, lawyers, and auditors would lose their jobs. Yes. Elect conservatives. But you hear screams from those who then have to pay taxes. Mike
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Richard Melton wrote: As a Marine I earned ~13k a year You lucky guy. I earned 1100€ during my year of military period. ;)
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
"I realise many of you men have never opened chardonnay under fire before..." -Robin Williams What did you guys do all day? Practice surrendering? I'M KIDDING!
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Marc Clifton wrote: Class warfare exists because few people have, and most don't--- Class warfare exists because: 1) envy 2) Democrats who turned it into an industry, promising someone else what you have if only you'll elect them.
Yup.
