How do you get your first job?
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My good looks, wit, and charm won the day for me. That was over 30 years ago. It won't be long before I can no longer rely on just being pretty.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997yeah but now you can just tell em that you have went green and drive a Prius..... sorry couldn't resist a shot
Common sense is not a gift it's a curse. Those of us who have it have to deal with those that don't.... Be careful which toes you step on today, they might be connected to the foot that kicks your butt tomorrow. You can't scare me, I have children.
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That's the thing though... what's the person that can't afford the $20k it costs per year supposed to do? Especially if congress decides to double loan interest rates. How is that person supposed to get work experience to get the job? It's a never ending cycle. They can't get the experience to get the job that would BE good experience. Give the guy a chance. The fact is, you give a test to that guy with the degree right?... why not give the test to the guy without one. If he does just as well or better, then what does the guy who has a degree have over him? Proof that he can pay for a piece of paper? It doesn't mean he learned anything more than the other guy. It sucks how much money matters in this world. I'm going to have to fork out $40 k (minus scholarships if I get any) to get a *chance* at supporting myself. And that's not including interest. <.>
It costs muuuuch less than 20k per year to go to junior college. Let's say you do 2 years to finish your degree, that's only 40k. Have you done the math on what your loan repayments will be per month on 40k and what your expected post grad income is? You'll be able to afford it. I also worked, sometimes really shit jobs, to get through college, so it took a while. There is nothing wrong with that. Otherwise, as I've mentioned, have you worked somewhere for 4 years straight or have any other way to prove commitment? That would be the only time I'd interview someone without a degree.
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It costs muuuuch less than 20k per year to go to junior college. Let's say you do 2 years to finish your degree, that's only 40k. Have you done the math on what your loan repayments will be per month on 40k and what your expected post grad income is? You'll be able to afford it. I also worked, sometimes really shit jobs, to get through college, so it took a while. There is nothing wrong with that. Otherwise, as I've mentioned, have you worked somewhere for 4 years straight or have any other way to prove commitment? That would be the only time I'd interview someone without a degree.
I worked somewhere for two years until I was laid off... then the company fell through shortly after. Mind you this was a restaurant lol. Not sure if you would take that as commitment or not. I'm pretty sure the bank wouldn't allow me to take out a $40k loan, that's the problem. If you can't borrow enough to go... you can't go. : /
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I've been programming since I was in middle school nine years (almost 10) ago. I've known since then that this was the career for me. The only problem is, I can't find my first job. It doesn't help that I'm in a small town with no programming jobs. I'm slowly working towards a degree but due to two bad years, I feel I'm falling behind. I'm 22... I should have graduated by now but I haven't even earned my associates degree. I don't know if I can make it through 3 more years of college. It's very tempting to save up some money and just move to a big city with lots of jobs (like Seattle) but I'd have no guarantee that I'd get a job. I'm so bored with my life. I want to earn a living programming. How do you get your first programming job? <.>
Finish your degree I dind't finish mine, and while I ended up pretty well, I won't recommend to do the same. It's going to come back to you when you least expect it. Less pay, ok. Some won't hire you because. Some can't hire you because their clients demand a "skilled" team. You won't be eligible for this. Or that. It won't get easier. You think it's easier to learn something new, something interesting when you have a day job? Boy, oh boy. Get your degree. That is the full-time job you have now.
FILETIME to time_t
| FoldWithUs! | sighist | WhoIncludes - Analyzing C++ include file hierarchy -
I worked somewhere for two years until I was laid off... then the company fell through shortly after. Mind you this was a restaurant lol. Not sure if you would take that as commitment or not. I'm pretty sure the bank wouldn't allow me to take out a $40k loan, that's the problem. If you can't borrow enough to go... you can't go. : /
I have a feeling you are either trolling, or just want to test out your excuses. There are plenty of options, and although you are not a college student, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are intelligent enough to figure them out. Since it sounds like you don't want to go to college, made that kind of clear, I would freelance for now until you build up a client base and nobody cares about your credentials, or you learn enough to replace your degree, just don't expect to get straight up hired. Maybe a startup might give you a shot now, but probably pay shit. Don't expect someone to give you a chance to prove yourself for $75k though. 12 years ago, my friend and drummer forewent college to take a dev job that paid $45k out of highschool. I think it was a bad idea, as he could have benefited from the resources at a uni, but I don't even know what he's up to now.
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mark merrens wrote:
Your job, your rules but I like to give people a chance to prove themselves, especially youngsters.
I'd say that's fine if it's your company, but at most companies, you get judged by the performance of who you hire. I wouldn't put my ass on the line to give a guy who didn't go to college (or as I mentioned earlier, has no decent amount of work experience)a chance to prove anything.
wizardzz wrote:
I'd say that's fine if it's your company, but at most companies, you get judged by the performance of who you hire. I wouldn't put my ass on the line to give a guy who didn't go to college (or as I mentioned earlier, has no decent amount of work experience)a chance to prove anything.
To be perfectly honest I think that is a bit cowardly and self-serving: you're painting yourself as a corporate drone incapable of taking any chances and only willing to toe the company line in case you get fired for making a decision that goes wrong. Not everything goes well: everyone makes mistakes and bad decisions and if you get fired for making one bad hiring decision then you should leave and work elsewhere.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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yeah but now you can just tell em that you have went green and drive a Prius..... sorry couldn't resist a shot
Common sense is not a gift it's a curse. Those of us who have it have to deal with those that don't.... Be careful which toes you step on today, they might be connected to the foot that kicks your butt tomorrow. You can't scare me, I have children.
I heard "Prius" was Japanese for "pussy".
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
I *am* working hard. I took calc 2, Britsh Lit 2, Psy 1, and Mus Appr this semester. I'll be taking Astronomy, Biology, and Calc based Physics next semester... I just feel like 3 years is a looong time to wait to earn even a chance at a job. I'll be 25 at that point <.>
Stephen Dycus wrote:
I'll be 25 at that point
Holy crap! You'll too old to even do anything by then. Might as well just give up now. :rolleyes: Do you think right out of university you will work into a corner office? Let me give you some hard facts about life. Not going to happen! Most people don't even begin to be successful in their careers until they have worked ten years or so. From what you have said so far it doesn't seem as though you have work ethic or drive to succeed and very much.
Failure is not an option; it's the default selection.
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wizardzz wrote:
I'd say that's fine if it's your company, but at most companies, you get judged by the performance of who you hire. I wouldn't put my ass on the line to give a guy who didn't go to college (or as I mentioned earlier, has no decent amount of work experience)a chance to prove anything.
To be perfectly honest I think that is a bit cowardly and self-serving: you're painting yourself as a corporate drone incapable of taking any chances and only willing to toe the company line in case you get fired for making a decision that goes wrong. Not everything goes well: everyone makes mistakes and bad decisions and if you get fired for making one bad hiring decision then you should leave and work elsewhere.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
That's your opinion Mark, but are you going to act like there is no totem pole in the business world? Do you really like to use your chance to hire talent as a gamble, or opportunity to "give chances" to people? And like I said, it costs very little time and money to get an Associates, and that is enough to prove to me that a candidate feels they are themselves worth investing in. 2 years, a few thousand dollars, hell do it online even faster, but why should I invest time and resources in them if they don't invest in themselves? Also, have you opened a position lately? Have you even seen an applicant without a degree?
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I can't work harder lol. I'm working toward's a transfer degree which requires a list of courses be taken. I only need to take two more courses to be done with my degree... but due to weird scheduling, it's going to take 2 more semesters to complete. I have to take Calc based Physics next semester and then its continuation the next semester. You seem to be holding on to an argument that this is about my work ethic... I cannot take on more responsibility... the college won't let me. I'm pretty sure you're the only one trolling here. Everyone else is being supportive, you're saying it's all my fault. :P
Stephen Dycus wrote:
I can't work harder
Then don't work harder. Work smarter. Yes, its a cliche, but seems to fit.
Failure is not an option; it's the default selection.
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I have a feeling you are either trolling, or just want to test out your excuses. There are plenty of options, and although you are not a college student, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are intelligent enough to figure them out. Since it sounds like you don't want to go to college, made that kind of clear, I would freelance for now until you build up a client base and nobody cares about your credentials, or you learn enough to replace your degree, just don't expect to get straight up hired. Maybe a startup might give you a shot now, but probably pay shit. Don't expect someone to give you a chance to prove yourself for $75k though. 12 years ago, my friend and drummer forewent college to take a dev job that paid $45k out of highschool. I think it was a bad idea, as he could have benefited from the resources at a uni, but I don't even know what he's up to now.
Um... I am a college student... I'm going to a community college. I have a year left before I qualify for transfer to a university's bachelor degree program (I'll sort of have an associates degree... it's strange). Unless you mean I'm not a University student... I just wish it wasn't necessary to waste my money getting a piece of paper when I'm competent enough for an entry level position already. I'm essentially throwing money away so that a company will *trust* that I'm competent and give me an interview. I've already researched the big classes that you'd take in a BS CS course of study. I've read books on more in depth OOP concepts, books on algorithms, messed around with assembly, took a course on Ethics in the field of IT... There is plenty for me to learn on the job, but not much the university will teach me. So the only reason I'm going to go to college is so businesses will trust that I know my stuff. A $20k job would pay the bills at this point, especially if I split the rent with my girlfriend or my best friend... I'm just tired of being a burden to my family. : /
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That's your opinion Mark, but are you going to act like there is no totem pole in the business world? Do you really like to use your chance to hire talent as a gamble, or opportunity to "give chances" to people? And like I said, it costs very little time and money to get an Associates, and that is enough to prove to me that a candidate feels they are themselves worth investing in. 2 years, a few thousand dollars, hell do it online even faster, but why should I invest time and resources in them if they don't invest in themselves? Also, have you opened a position lately? Have you even seen an applicant without a degree?
wizardzz wrote:
That's your opinion Mark
Yes, I know: I'm not trying to be offensive.
wizardzz wrote:
why should I invest time and resources in them if they don't invest in themselves?
Fair point well made.
wizardzz wrote:
Also, have you opened a position lately? Have you even seen an applicant without a degree?
Over the years, many. I think we'll have to agree to disagree: I am not convinced that a lack of a degree, of itself, is enough of a reason to preclude considering someone for a role.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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Um... I am a college student... I'm going to a community college. I have a year left before I qualify for transfer to a university's bachelor degree program (I'll sort of have an associates degree... it's strange). Unless you mean I'm not a University student... I just wish it wasn't necessary to waste my money getting a piece of paper when I'm competent enough for an entry level position already. I'm essentially throwing money away so that a company will *trust* that I'm competent and give me an interview. I've already researched the big classes that you'd take in a BS CS course of study. I've read books on more in depth OOP concepts, books on algorithms, messed around with assembly, took a course on Ethics in the field of IT... There is plenty for me to learn on the job, but not much the university will teach me. So the only reason I'm going to go to college is so businesses will trust that I know my stuff. A $20k job would pay the bills at this point, especially if I split the rent with my girlfriend or my best friend... I'm just tired of being a burden to my family. : /
Get your associates like thing finished up and apply around. I would consider people with Associates, plus you worked somewhere for 2 years, too. Honestly that's all I like college education to show me. Hell look at nurses, many only have associates and for all purposes do almost as much as a doctor. Don't move without a job though. Just as general life experience, unless you are wealthy or financially backed by someone, do not do this.
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Stephen Dycus wrote:
I'll be 25 at that point
Holy crap! You'll too old to even do anything by then. Might as well just give up now. :rolleyes: Do you think right out of university you will work into a corner office? Let me give you some hard facts about life. Not going to happen! Most people don't even begin to be successful in their careers until they have worked ten years or so. From what you have said so far it doesn't seem as though you have work ethic or drive to succeed and very much.
Failure is not an option; it's the default selection.
Guess I've been in more of a rush since my existential crisis last year. 25 seems young until you think that it's a fourth of my life (assuming I make it to 100 *crosses fingers*). I'm not THAT unrealistic in my expectations. XD Seriously, I could be happy on $20k and a cheap apartment. It gives me something to work for. As it is, I have no disposable income, no private space (living with my mom... half the week), no stability (have to pack up my computer and close every half week to go to another house), and a dream I've had for 9 years that I'm still going to have to wait 3 more years on. : / I don't mean to bitch, I'm just impatient I suppose. It sucks not having a job in general, let alone a programming job.
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I've been programming since I was in middle school nine years (almost 10) ago. I've known since then that this was the career for me. The only problem is, I can't find my first job. It doesn't help that I'm in a small town with no programming jobs. I'm slowly working towards a degree but due to two bad years, I feel I'm falling behind. I'm 22... I should have graduated by now but I haven't even earned my associates degree. I don't know if I can make it through 3 more years of college. It's very tempting to save up some money and just move to a big city with lots of jobs (like Seattle) but I'd have no guarantee that I'd get a job. I'm so bored with my life. I want to earn a living programming. How do you get your first programming job? <.>
I began programming when I was 12 years old. I am 25 now (just turned 25 on April 2). I landed my job 2 years and 7 months ago. However, I did not start out as a programmer. Here is what happened. I worked on a production line, a typical warehouse employee in a typical warehouse environment. I did not have a special job so to speak. My job was to test consumer printers as part of the remanufacturing process. I was in that position for about a year and a half. And then came the new sub-department for actually repairing the printers (mechanically). With my general electronics knowledge (not genius or anything; just many years of general experience with computers and hardware), I helped them design the process as well as developing more efficient methods for repairing various issues. And then came the opportunity of a lifetime. Our facility director (at the time; not here anymore due to bad practice) loved, loved, loved, loved Microsoft Access. His little Access database was hosted on a Windows XP shared hard drive. He expected 20+ users to be able to access this file *simultaneously*. I saw the trouble with this immediately. So I waited patiently. I studied the general workflow of the Access database. And then I took off. ON MY OWN TIME at home, for no pay, I designed a database in Microsoft SQL Server 2008. And then I started planning a front-end software solution. Once this solution was at a good point I popped it onto a laptop and brought it to work. I practically slapped it on the director's desk and told him to have fun. He asked me what exactly I had done. So I explained that I had solved the issues we had with people being locked out of the Access database, how TERRIBLY SLOW Access was, how much time was being wasted by using it, etc. He then asked me how feasible it would be to implement my system into the production environment. So I spoke with our IT guy, asking about what types of servers we had full access to (and where they were). And I told him about what was going on. So he backed me up and spoke to the director with me the next day. The director was absolutely stunned and became very persistent on getting the software up and running. We had a few of the more tech savvy production users run the software for a few days, simply to catch any bugs that may have been lingering. A few popped up and I took care of them. Here's where I am NOW: I work in the IT office. I have a desk, a computer and a few servers at my disposal. I am presented with projects by various members of management,
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There are exceptions to every rule, except taxes and death. The point is, until Bill, Larry, or Paul made something of themself, they were no different than the guy with no college education.
"One man's wage rise is another man's price increase." - Harold Wilson
"Fireproof doesn't mean the fire will never come. It means when the fire comes that you will be able to withstand it." - Michael Simmons
"Show me a community that obeys the Ten Commandments and I'll show you a less crowded prison system." - Anonymous
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I've been programming since I was in middle school nine years (almost 10) ago. I've known since then that this was the career for me. The only problem is, I can't find my first job. It doesn't help that I'm in a small town with no programming jobs. I'm slowly working towards a degree but due to two bad years, I feel I'm falling behind. I'm 22... I should have graduated by now but I haven't even earned my associates degree. I don't know if I can make it through 3 more years of college. It's very tempting to save up some money and just move to a big city with lots of jobs (like Seattle) but I'd have no guarantee that I'd get a job. I'm so bored with my life. I want to earn a living programming. How do you get your first programming job? <.>
Joined the Army as a Satllite Ground Station System Repairer and my last boss was a computer geek. He let me try automating this, that, and the other thing on site. Got out of the Army, came back as a civilian, messed around with programming some more (still not my official job), and finally knew enough to qualify for an actual computer-related job (if you count babysitting a Sun and an HP(-UX) machine). Wrote some web apps for that job, finally re-classed my position as programmer. So, it's easy to get a programming job. Just invest 15 years doing something else in a land that doesn't have round doorknobs until they finally relent.
No dogs or cats are in the classroom. My Mu[sic] My Films My Windows Programs, etc.
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Yep, you're a whiner.
"the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011) "It is the celestial scrotum of good luck!" - Nagy Vilmos (2011) "But you probably have the smoothest scrotum of any grown man" - Pete O'Hanlon (2012)For some reason, this reminds me of Dilbert.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
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Guess I've been in more of a rush since my existential crisis last year. 25 seems young until you think that it's a fourth of my life (assuming I make it to 100 *crosses fingers*). I'm not THAT unrealistic in my expectations. XD Seriously, I could be happy on $20k and a cheap apartment. It gives me something to work for. As it is, I have no disposable income, no private space (living with my mom... half the week), no stability (have to pack up my computer and close every half week to go to another house), and a dream I've had for 9 years that I'm still going to have to wait 3 more years on. : / I don't mean to bitch, I'm just impatient I suppose. It sucks not having a job in general, let alone a programming job.
Stephen Dycus wrote:
It sucks not having a job in general
Tell that to the 8.3% of the US population that is out of work. Stop bitching and whining.
Failure is not an option; it's the default selection.
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Well, work anywhere is going to be more terrible than school. If someone couldn't do that for a few works, they definitely couldn't do work for the same amount of time.
wizardzz wrote:
work anywhere is going to be more terrible than school.
I couldn't disagree more. I love work. I look forward to it. But I hated school.
The difficult we do right away... ...the impossible takes slightly longer.
