How do you get your first job?
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There are exceptions to every rule, except taxes and death. The point is, until Bill, Larry, or Paul made something of themself, they were no different than the guy with no college education.
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I've been programming since I was in middle school nine years (almost 10) ago. I've known since then that this was the career for me. The only problem is, I can't find my first job. It doesn't help that I'm in a small town with no programming jobs. I'm slowly working towards a degree but due to two bad years, I feel I'm falling behind. I'm 22... I should have graduated by now but I haven't even earned my associates degree. I don't know if I can make it through 3 more years of college. It's very tempting to save up some money and just move to a big city with lots of jobs (like Seattle) but I'd have no guarantee that I'd get a job. I'm so bored with my life. I want to earn a living programming. How do you get your first programming job? <.>
Joined the Army as a Satllite Ground Station System Repairer and my last boss was a computer geek. He let me try automating this, that, and the other thing on site. Got out of the Army, came back as a civilian, messed around with programming some more (still not my official job), and finally knew enough to qualify for an actual computer-related job (if you count babysitting a Sun and an HP(-UX) machine). Wrote some web apps for that job, finally re-classed my position as programmer. So, it's easy to get a programming job. Just invest 15 years doing something else in a land that doesn't have round doorknobs until they finally relent.
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Guess I've been in more of a rush since my existential crisis last year. 25 seems young until you think that it's a fourth of my life (assuming I make it to 100 *crosses fingers*). I'm not THAT unrealistic in my expectations. XD Seriously, I could be happy on $20k and a cheap apartment. It gives me something to work for. As it is, I have no disposable income, no private space (living with my mom... half the week), no stability (have to pack up my computer and close every half week to go to another house), and a dream I've had for 9 years that I'm still going to have to wait 3 more years on. : / I don't mean to bitch, I'm just impatient I suppose. It sucks not having a job in general, let alone a programming job.
Stephen Dycus wrote:
It sucks not having a job in general
Tell that to the 8.3% of the US population that is out of work. Stop bitching and whining.
Failure is not an option; it's the default selection.
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Well, work anywhere is going to be more terrible than school. If someone couldn't do that for a few works, they definitely couldn't do work for the same amount of time.
wizardzz wrote:
work anywhere is going to be more terrible than school.
I couldn't disagree more. I love work. I look forward to it. But I hated school.
The difficult we do right away... ...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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Stephen Dycus wrote:
It sucks not having a job in general
Tell that to the 8.3% of the US population that is out of work. Stop bitching and whining.
Failure is not an option; it's the default selection.
Huh? Because I'm part of 8.3% of unemployed US citizens means I can't complain? Your logic is beyond me. o.O
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I've been programming since I was in middle school nine years (almost 10) ago. I've known since then that this was the career for me. The only problem is, I can't find my first job. It doesn't help that I'm in a small town with no programming jobs. I'm slowly working towards a degree but due to two bad years, I feel I'm falling behind. I'm 22... I should have graduated by now but I haven't even earned my associates degree. I don't know if I can make it through 3 more years of college. It's very tempting to save up some money and just move to a big city with lots of jobs (like Seattle) but I'd have no guarantee that I'd get a job. I'm so bored with my life. I want to earn a living programming. How do you get your first programming job? <.>
When I was working on my associates degree I spent a bunch of time reading manuals in the office of the guy who kept the college's computer (a VAX 11-785) running. Then, when I was working on my bachelors degree, he called and asked if I'd be interested in working for him. It just so happened that I needed a co-op job at that time. Definitely finish your degree.
Stephen Dycus wrote:
move to a big city with lots of jobs
Would you like to be unemployed there? (I wouldn't.) After I got my bachelors degree and my wife and I got married I moved from Boston to southern California (where she was) -- I spent nearly a year unemployed there, but hey! it was southern California. :cool: If you do want to move, move somewhere you want to be. I also wouldn't worry about moving with a job waiting for you. It's easier to get a job once you're a local candidate. I expect that with little or no actual experience being a non-local candidate will be too much for most employers.
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I heard "Prius" was Japanese for "pussy".
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I've been programming since I was in middle school nine years (almost 10) ago. I've known since then that this was the career for me. The only problem is, I can't find my first job. It doesn't help that I'm in a small town with no programming jobs. I'm slowly working towards a degree but due to two bad years, I feel I'm falling behind. I'm 22... I should have graduated by now but I haven't even earned my associates degree. I don't know if I can make it through 3 more years of college. It's very tempting to save up some money and just move to a big city with lots of jobs (like Seattle) but I'd have no guarantee that I'd get a job. I'm so bored with my life. I want to earn a living programming. How do you get your first programming job? <.>
Answered an ad in the paper looking for Apple II 6502 assembly language programmers. I got my next job by going through every resource I could find (this was back before the internet) and making a list of all the companies in a my target city that looked like hired 80x86 assembly or C programmers AND who sold shrink wrapped software. I stored these all on index cards. I sent my resume to every one and made follow up calls. I recently worked with a top notch junior programmer who had started in the assembly area, showed smarts and initiative, was asked to write some simple test programs, which became more complicated. He was going to University at the same time and just before graduation, we hired him full time on salary (vs. part time wages.)
Stephen Dycus wrote:
just move to a big city with lots of jobs (like Seattle) but I'd have no guarantee that I'd get a job
Great rewards require great risks. I wouldn't move to Seattle, though, but San Jose. (You could try Boston, North Carolina Research Triangle, Salt Lake City, Dallas, Austin, all depending on what kind of programming you want to do.) Go on dice.com. Search for the kind of programming you want to do (and/or are good at doing) and narrow it down by region so see the rough demand (do be careful, most locations are notorious for having lots of postings for the same job, which is fine in San Jose, but terrible in, say, Casa Grande.) THEN MOVE. Most places will not interview non-local candidates and fewer will pay for the move. (Especially true in California--companies don't like hiring people and having them quit months later because the place isn't the Garden of Eden they thought it was going to be.) If you are single and not a spoiled materialist, take a job with a start up paying crap wages. Put in a year or two doing the best job you can and then move on. You may not be earning much money, but you would be earning experience, which is far more valuable in the long run. Be willing to accept technical support and/or testing jobs at places with a record for promotion and/or tuition matching. One great advantage of these kind of jobs is that they give you a perspective many engineering students lack. It also shows initiative and drive. Frankly, all other things being equal, if I have a resume of a fresh college graduate and someone self taught who had been working technical support and testing, I'd lean toward the latter. Finally, you're very young. Stop panicking, stop partying, s
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Answered an ad in the paper looking for Apple II 6502 assembly language programmers. I got my next job by going through every resource I could find (this was back before the internet) and making a list of all the companies in a my target city that looked like hired 80x86 assembly or C programmers AND who sold shrink wrapped software. I stored these all on index cards. I sent my resume to every one and made follow up calls. I recently worked with a top notch junior programmer who had started in the assembly area, showed smarts and initiative, was asked to write some simple test programs, which became more complicated. He was going to University at the same time and just before graduation, we hired him full time on salary (vs. part time wages.)
Stephen Dycus wrote:
just move to a big city with lots of jobs (like Seattle) but I'd have no guarantee that I'd get a job
Great rewards require great risks. I wouldn't move to Seattle, though, but San Jose. (You could try Boston, North Carolina Research Triangle, Salt Lake City, Dallas, Austin, all depending on what kind of programming you want to do.) Go on dice.com. Search for the kind of programming you want to do (and/or are good at doing) and narrow it down by region so see the rough demand (do be careful, most locations are notorious for having lots of postings for the same job, which is fine in San Jose, but terrible in, say, Casa Grande.) THEN MOVE. Most places will not interview non-local candidates and fewer will pay for the move. (Especially true in California--companies don't like hiring people and having them quit months later because the place isn't the Garden of Eden they thought it was going to be.) If you are single and not a spoiled materialist, take a job with a start up paying crap wages. Put in a year or two doing the best job you can and then move on. You may not be earning much money, but you would be earning experience, which is far more valuable in the long run. Be willing to accept technical support and/or testing jobs at places with a record for promotion and/or tuition matching. One great advantage of these kind of jobs is that they give you a perspective many engineering students lack. It also shows initiative and drive. Frankly, all other things being equal, if I have a resume of a fresh college graduate and someone self taught who had been working technical support and testing, I'd lean toward the latter. Finally, you're very young. Stop panicking, stop partying, s
Joe Woodbury wrote:
but terrible in, say, Casa Grande
There's a job in Casa Grande? :confused: :-D
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Answered an ad in the paper looking for Apple II 6502 assembly language programmers. I got my next job by going through every resource I could find (this was back before the internet) and making a list of all the companies in a my target city that looked like hired 80x86 assembly or C programmers AND who sold shrink wrapped software. I stored these all on index cards. I sent my resume to every one and made follow up calls. I recently worked with a top notch junior programmer who had started in the assembly area, showed smarts and initiative, was asked to write some simple test programs, which became more complicated. He was going to University at the same time and just before graduation, we hired him full time on salary (vs. part time wages.)
Stephen Dycus wrote:
just move to a big city with lots of jobs (like Seattle) but I'd have no guarantee that I'd get a job
Great rewards require great risks. I wouldn't move to Seattle, though, but San Jose. (You could try Boston, North Carolina Research Triangle, Salt Lake City, Dallas, Austin, all depending on what kind of programming you want to do.) Go on dice.com. Search for the kind of programming you want to do (and/or are good at doing) and narrow it down by region so see the rough demand (do be careful, most locations are notorious for having lots of postings for the same job, which is fine in San Jose, but terrible in, say, Casa Grande.) THEN MOVE. Most places will not interview non-local candidates and fewer will pay for the move. (Especially true in California--companies don't like hiring people and having them quit months later because the place isn't the Garden of Eden they thought it was going to be.) If you are single and not a spoiled materialist, take a job with a start up paying crap wages. Put in a year or two doing the best job you can and then move on. You may not be earning much money, but you would be earning experience, which is far more valuable in the long run. Be willing to accept technical support and/or testing jobs at places with a record for promotion and/or tuition matching. One great advantage of these kind of jobs is that they give you a perspective many engineering students lack. It also shows initiative and drive. Frankly, all other things being equal, if I have a resume of a fresh college graduate and someone self taught who had been working technical support and testing, I'd lean toward the latter. Finally, you're very young. Stop panicking, stop partying, s
Maybe Google will give me an interview... This is my biggest problem, not getting interviews. I know the basics (be persistent, call, apply in person, etc). Maybe I should look at getting professional help with my resume? Google's hiring 15 minutes down the street so maybe I'll get an interview (I shine in interviews ^^). But the data center doesn't have a phone number... maybe I should show up tomorrow and request more information on the job (already emailed my resume)?
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That's the thing though... what's the person that can't afford the $20k it costs per year supposed to do? Especially if congress decides to double loan interest rates. How is that person supposed to get work experience to get the job? It's a never ending cycle. They can't get the experience to get the job that would BE good experience. Give the guy a chance. The fact is, you give a test to that guy with the degree right?... why not give the test to the guy without one. If he does just as well or better, then what does the guy who has a degree have over him? Proof that he can pay for a piece of paper? It doesn't mean he learned anything more than the other guy. It sucks how much money matters in this world. I'm going to have to fork out $40 k (minus scholarships if I get any) to get a *chance* at supporting myself. And that's not including interest. <.>
My second son is attending a very good state university that costs $2250 a semester, easily covered by Pell Grants (or working a minimum wage job.)
Stephen Dycus wrote:
They can't get the experience to get the job that would BE good experience. Give the guy a chance.
How about stop blaming everyone else and taking responsibility for your own life? A high school classmate attended MIT loan free by going a semester, working a semester, going a semester and so on (and this was back post-Carter when the economy was MUCH worse than it is now.) Other classmates joined the military. I went to a cheap religious college, dropped out and worked my way through film school without any student loans. As I stated below, I got my first programming job by first taking any work I could get (including less than minimum wage jobs) and doing a continual job search all the time teaching myself. I went to work for a terrible company which paid me squat, but it was a start. When I left my second programming job, my place was taken by a guy who had studied classical piano in college while he worked as a software salesman. He dropped out and took a job as an extremely junior "engineer" who did no programming at all; his job was to do all the crap nobody else wanted to do, like proof read readme.txt files and verify that master disks were okay. How did he get that job? Through persistence.
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Joe Woodbury wrote:
but terrible in, say, Casa Grande
There's a job in Casa Grande? :confused: :-D
Probably at the McDonald's just off the freeway.
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My second son is attending a very good state university that costs $2250 a semester, easily covered by Pell Grants (or working a minimum wage job.)
Stephen Dycus wrote:
They can't get the experience to get the job that would BE good experience. Give the guy a chance.
How about stop blaming everyone else and taking responsibility for your own life? A high school classmate attended MIT loan free by going a semester, working a semester, going a semester and so on (and this was back post-Carter when the economy was MUCH worse than it is now.) Other classmates joined the military. I went to a cheap religious college, dropped out and worked my way through film school without any student loans. As I stated below, I got my first programming job by first taking any work I could get (including less than minimum wage jobs) and doing a continual job search all the time teaching myself. I went to work for a terrible company which paid me squat, but it was a start. When I left my second programming job, my place was taken by a guy who had studied classical piano in college while he worked as a software salesman. He dropped out and took a job as an extremely junior "engineer" who did no programming at all; his job was to do all the crap nobody else wanted to do, like proof read readme.txt files and verify that master disks were okay. How did he get that job? Through persistence.
I'm not blaming anyone. XD I'm the one who blames myself for everything that goes wrong in not only my own life but those that are close to me. I was simply asking a valid question: How does one gain work experience in an industry that requires work experience to start? My FA is running out. They sent me a letter that says they'l only pay for X amount of credit hours. I'm not sure if this is until I finish my associates degree and start working towards a Bachelor degree or whether I'm f***** in that department. : / I don't understand how someone can work and pay for college. I spent a whole year working 2 part time jobs, with the bills split 3 ways, and STILL couldn't make ends meet. There's no WAY I could make enough to pay the bills AND save up $20k making roughly $5k a year. It's just unrealistic. The only way I see that working is to have a full time job... which typically requires a degree (thus another never ending cycle). I don't know how old you are but cost of living and schooling is drastically different than even a few years ago.
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Maybe Google will give me an interview... This is my biggest problem, not getting interviews. I know the basics (be persistent, call, apply in person, etc). Maybe I should look at getting professional help with my resume? Google's hiring 15 minutes down the street so maybe I'll get an interview (I shine in interviews ^^). But the data center doesn't have a phone number... maybe I should show up tomorrow and request more information on the job (already emailed my resume)?
Stephen Dycus wrote:
maybe I should show up tomorrow and request more information on the job (already emailed my resume)?
That's exactly what you should do. Show them you are interested. Be willing to take any job there, even if not in IT. Maybe they are hiring janitors (I'm not being sarcastic; I mopped floors at college. I also did data entry and did lots of temp work, including shredding paper and moving boxes from one place to another.) My oldest son whines he can't find work, yet at his age, his older sister found jobs (with a local economy than was worse than it is now.) How? By walking into places, finding the manager and asking them whether they are hiring and when she can have her interview. What does my son do? He fills out applications. I did that too when I was a teen and it worked just as well. Another idea; go for an associates degree. Take time off, establish yourself in anything to do with IT and then pursue a bachelors degree all the while teaching yourself. A colleague teamed up with some classmates and wrote some iPhone games. They didn't make any money, but it was experience and could lead to something more.
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Stephen Dycus wrote:
maybe I should show up tomorrow and request more information on the job (already emailed my resume)?
That's exactly what you should do. Show them you are interested. Be willing to take any job there, even if not in IT. Maybe they are hiring janitors (I'm not being sarcastic; I mopped floors at college. I also did data entry and did lots of temp work, including shredding paper and moving boxes from one place to another.) My oldest son whines he can't find work, yet at his age, his older sister found jobs (with a local economy than was worse than it is now.) How? By walking into places, finding the manager and asking them whether they are hiring and when she can have her interview. What does my son do? He fills out applications. I did that too when I was a teen and it worked just as well. Another idea; go for an associates degree. Take time off, establish yourself in anything to do with IT and then pursue a bachelors degree all the while teaching yourself. A colleague teamed up with some classmates and wrote some iPhone games. They didn't make any money, but it was experience and could lead to something more.
I'm leading a team at my college to making an Android game. I'm the sole programmer and it's all new technology but I believe I have it down pat now... mostly XD. I'm using the engine I'm making for my own game. I'm not sure about how my Associate Degree works... it's technically a transfer program specifically for getting the Gen Ed courses done before going to a 4-Year University. Maybe I should see if I can take a few classes and turn it into a Programming AS... I've got nothing against janitorial work. I'd prefer cleaning toilets to the crap I went through at Best Buy... twice...
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I'm not blaming anyone. XD I'm the one who blames myself for everything that goes wrong in not only my own life but those that are close to me. I was simply asking a valid question: How does one gain work experience in an industry that requires work experience to start? My FA is running out. They sent me a letter that says they'l only pay for X amount of credit hours. I'm not sure if this is until I finish my associates degree and start working towards a Bachelor degree or whether I'm f***** in that department. : / I don't understand how someone can work and pay for college. I spent a whole year working 2 part time jobs, with the bills split 3 ways, and STILL couldn't make ends meet. There's no WAY I could make enough to pay the bills AND save up $20k making roughly $5k a year. It's just unrealistic. The only way I see that working is to have a full time job... which typically requires a degree (thus another never ending cycle). I don't know how old you are but cost of living and schooling is drastically different than even a few years ago.
Stephen Dycus wrote:
I don't understand how someone can work and pay for college.
I did it because I had no choice. Believe it or not, it used to be hard as hell to get student loans and grants. However, the math isn't hard. Full time minimum wage pays $1275 a month. That's $15,300 a year. Where I live, you can rent a university style apartment (really a bed with a shared kitchen) for $260 a month. I feed myself for $250 a month (I don't eat out, set a budget of $3 a day for lunch and cook my dinners.) My older brother lives on $10,000 a year as a writer. He lives in a dump, eats rice and chicken and drives a twenty-year-old car, but is happy. About three years ago, my youngest sister worked full time at a job paying slightly more than minimum wage and got her masters degree without loans or grants. As I stated elsewhere, the full time tuition for a semester at my local university is $2,250 (plus about $350 for books and fees. I know because in January, I paid my youngest son's first semester by selling some McDonalds stock I bought years ago for that very reason. He received a Pell Grant and if he keeps his grades up, he'll be able to pay for the rest of college with those.) My son bought an unlimited discount bus pass from the university for $50 for a full year to take care of transportation. They offer an excellent education in computer science--arguably better than the big shot private university down the road (which I attended for several semesters.) As an FYI, using an inflation calculator I ran the costs of my tuition and living expenses. The university my son is attending is exactly the same as the private religious college down the road was thirty years ago and CHEAPER than where I finished my degree. The cost of living is exactly the same here and MUCH cheaper than where I finished my degree in Los Angeles. Cost of living and schooling are higher than they were thirty years ago, adjusted for inflation, only if you choose them to be. I'll also point out that no matter how bad you think the economy is, it was far worse when I started college--interest rates, unemployment and inflation were all in the double digits.
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I'm leading a team at my college to making an Android game. I'm the sole programmer and it's all new technology but I believe I have it down pat now... mostly XD. I'm using the engine I'm making for my own game. I'm not sure about how my Associate Degree works... it's technically a transfer program specifically for getting the Gen Ed courses done before going to a 4-Year University. Maybe I should see if I can take a few classes and turn it into a Programming AS... I've got nothing against janitorial work. I'd prefer cleaning toilets to the crap I went through at Best Buy... twice...
The point of an associated degree is that it helps you transfer to a new university without having to worry about transferring classes, especially all the freshman ones. If you are willing to totally gamble, you could also use it to start at Neumont University[^] in Utah. I've had several colleagues go there, including the web guy in the next cubicle and the lead web services engineer at my last place (who started there just about his thirtieth birthday.) It's expensive, but good.
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Stephen Dycus wrote:
I don't understand how someone can work and pay for college.
I did it because I had no choice. Believe it or not, it used to be hard as hell to get student loans and grants. However, the math isn't hard. Full time minimum wage pays $1275 a month. That's $15,300 a year. Where I live, you can rent a university style apartment (really a bed with a shared kitchen) for $260 a month. I feed myself for $250 a month (I don't eat out, set a budget of $3 a day for lunch and cook my dinners.) My older brother lives on $10,000 a year as a writer. He lives in a dump, eats rice and chicken and drives a twenty-year-old car, but is happy. About three years ago, my youngest sister worked full time at a job paying slightly more than minimum wage and got her masters degree without loans or grants. As I stated elsewhere, the full time tuition for a semester at my local university is $2,250 (plus about $350 for books and fees. I know because in January, I paid my youngest son's first semester by selling some McDonalds stock I bought years ago for that very reason. He received a Pell Grant and if he keeps his grades up, he'll be able to pay for the rest of college with those.) My son bought an unlimited discount bus pass from the university for $50 for a full year to take care of transportation. They offer an excellent education in computer science--arguably better than the big shot private university down the road (which I attended for several semesters.) As an FYI, using an inflation calculator I ran the costs of my tuition and living expenses. The university my son is attending is exactly the same as the private religious college down the road was thirty years ago and CHEAPER than where I finished my degree. The cost of living is exactly the same here and MUCH cheaper than where I finished my degree in Los Angeles. Cost of living and schooling are higher than they were thirty years ago, adjusted for inflation, only if you choose them to be. I'll also point out that no matter how bad you think the economy is, it was far worse when I started college--interest rates, unemployment and inflation were all in the double digits.
I spent $400 on rent, $80 on electricity, negligable food cost (packx of 100 frozen disgusting hotdogs from Sams Club, $0.37 Macaroni, etc), internet was included in rent. Also had gas, utilities, etc to pay for. I made about $800 a month working 2 part time jobs as it's hard to get hours. They don't offer full time at most places anymore (typical retail jobs that is). It's easier for them to hire bunch of part time hires than a few full time hires, that way if someone's sick for a shift, they have a large pool for replacements. You can theorize all you want but I lived it. It's tough and I see no realistic way of doing it, at least at your typical 4-year. I have no clue if there are any insanley cheap colleges near me that offer BS in Comp Sci. My two options, the ones that will get me a job when I'm done are: UNC[^] $20k NC State[^] $19k or UNC Charlotte, which I really don't want to return to despite its cheap tuition ($5K).
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I've been programming since I was in middle school nine years (almost 10) ago. I've known since then that this was the career for me. The only problem is, I can't find my first job. It doesn't help that I'm in a small town with no programming jobs. I'm slowly working towards a degree but due to two bad years, I feel I'm falling behind. I'm 22... I should have graduated by now but I haven't even earned my associates degree. I don't know if I can make it through 3 more years of college. It's very tempting to save up some money and just move to a big city with lots of jobs (like Seattle) but I'd have no guarantee that I'd get a job. I'm so bored with my life. I want to earn a living programming. How do you get your first programming job? <.>
I left school and fucked about eventually working on a help desk for an insurance company. "Can you turn it on and off again please?" It was awful. So I made some small utilities in c for the help desk staff - things like resetting a user's password in 7 systems in one command. When that company was bought by GE I went looking for a c++ job and just called myself a c++ programmer. I got a job at a start-up (this was late '90's so lots of cashed up start ups even in Australia) and it was pretty good. Two years there and I went overseas for a while and worked in Europe. More than 10 years later and I have a great job and I've never set foot in a university.
