How do you get your first job?
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The "truth" doesn't hurt coming from you, it just comes off as trollish and unreliable. You use short, one sentence responses to convey your point. It's a jab: 1. "Hmm..." 2. Two sentence angry response, followed by "Hmmm..." 3. "[Work harder, you're a troll or a whiner]" 4. "Yep, you're a whiner." If you want me to take you seriously, then take the time to form a *real* response to my posts. You can provide negative feedback without coming off insulting. People don't learn from insults, so your "help" is largely unhelpful. If you were to say something like: "That's not the best attitude to go about this. You need to buck up, and take hold of your life. You're going to have to make some sacrifices and work your ass off to get where you want to go." It would go over much better, not make you look like a troll, and convey essentially the same thing you were trying state.
I will admit my responses were mean spirited. I have been active on this site for 4+ years now and I have contributed a bit in that time, so I am no troll. I hurt your feelings, this I can see, so I apologize for the way I presented my views to you, although I meant what I said. You did whine a lot. I also meant what I said that you need to toughen up a bit, get a thicker skin, especially if you are going to hang out here on this site. Not being mean, just stating a fact. -- Cheers
"the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011) "It is the celestial scrotum of good luck!" - Nagy Vilmos (2011) "But you probably have the smoothest scrotum of any grown man" - Pete O'Hanlon (2012) -
The "truth" doesn't hurt coming from you, it just comes off as trollish and unreliable. You use short, one sentence responses to convey your point. It's a jab: 1. "Hmm..." 2. Two sentence angry response, followed by "Hmmm..." 3. "[Work harder, you're a troll or a whiner]" 4. "Yep, you're a whiner." If you want me to take you seriously, then take the time to form a *real* response to my posts. You can provide negative feedback without coming off insulting. People don't learn from insults, so your "help" is largely unhelpful. If you were to say something like: "That's not the best attitude to go about this. You need to buck up, and take hold of your life. You're going to have to make some sacrifices and work your ass off to get where you want to go." It would go over much better, not make you look like a troll, and convey essentially the same thing you were trying state.
Are you down voting all of my posts? Your debator points match the hits I'm getting.
"the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011) "It is the celestial scrotum of good luck!" - Nagy Vilmos (2011) "But you probably have the smoothest scrotum of any grown man" - Pete O'Hanlon (2012) -
Tough Love Time The only reliable way to get a programming job (even in Seattle, especially in Seattle) is to get a four year degree in Computer Science. Period. End of story. Yeah, yeah, you've been programming for 10 years. So how much does that experience when you were 12 count as full-time job experience? My guess is you have the equivalent of maybe a couple years of serious programming behind you. But even if you were a boy-genius who wrote compilers for breakfast and operating systems for lunch, unless you know your data structures and algorithms, you'll bomb out at the coding interview stage. Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Amazon, Boeing (don't laugh), and all the bigger employers of SW folks expect degrees, and test for your algo & data structure experience. I don't know you, and I am not in a position to judge your life, but it would be easy for a hiring manager to assume that your history shows you as just the kind of screwup that companies want to avoid. If you wanna make it in the big city, you need a better story than you've told so far. You probably don't want to tell that story at all, just say, "It took me a while to grow up." Do you own an awesome open source project? Got some tremendous game you can show off? No? Why would an employer look at you if the previous resume on the pile went to college? Now, I know there are guys who made it as programmers without a degree, so don't you all write in saying, "I made it and I don't have a degree". These guys are the exception. The great bulk of developers have a Bachelor's degree in CS. Lots of 'em have a Masters. That's your competition, so you better be damn good. You might have a chance applying for a job as a tester, and moving to development later. That's a hard road because being a tester marks you as not-ready-for-prime-time as a dev. (Mostly. Please don't flame me you testers; good testers are really valuable folks, but you gotta admit there are a lot of mediocre wannabes doing testing). If you get "bored" when faced with the need to work your ass off, better forget programming anyway. One thing a degree does show is that a person is able to commit to a goal for a period of about four years. Serious dev projects go on for years, and may involve a lot of hard thinking and maybe a lot of uncompensated overtime. Especially if you're hired by the kind of bottom feeder willing to take on difficult-to-place young employees. Good luck man.
I'm not "bored" with the amount of work, I'm impatient with the amount of time I have to wait. Classes are fun for me. I wrote my British lit 2 paper in 2 hours (and made 195/200 on it), course work has always come easy for me. I guess in that sense, sometimes I get bored. The work is too slow for me sometimes. But that doesn't mean I give up... I've read a couple books on data structures, OOP Theory, and algorithms. I'm currenly reading: The Art of Computer Programming[^] I almost have a "tremendous game" to show off. The last thing to put into the engine I'm designing is a text system. (Text may seem trivial to implement, but it's not that easy on android. My options are to use Android's slow text overlay or roll my own with OpenGL ES.... I'm doing the later :D) Android has been a great learning experience. I got my first exposure to threading thanks to android. ^^ I taught my VB class one day during my senior year since the teacher saw that I had made a Sonic the Hedgehog game in class... I've been working on large scale personal projects (games) for... 4 years? I'm not a genius, but I have been competent for a while. (Not necessarily competent enough for hire mind you. But my collective experience up to this point does make me feel ready for hire.)
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Two Bad Years: I got stressed out trying to keep an apartment my first year at a university so I flunked out (aced Java at least lol). Then the next year I wasted a year of my life working two part time jobs trying to keep the apartment but eventually was evicted. Don't really understand why you quoted the rest... I don't have an associates degree but I have far more experience than the guys that do. (like the one's I tutor at my current community college). I've almost finished my android 2D engine while the students here are still struggling on OOP concepts. : / I *don't* know if I can make it three more years. I suppose the two years earning my bachelors degree will be fun. I'd love to take an algorithms class or an ASM class. But I'm not looking forward to finishing up my fluff classes to get to that point. I AM bored with my life. I feel stuck. I don't have a job, I live with my mom, and frankly I feel pathetic. I'm ready to grow up and move on to the next stage of my life... Question still stands.
If you are that bored, then while you are going to school to earn your Bachelor's degree (yes even if it takes you until age 25 - DO NOT STOP) why not pick an open source project and become DEEPLY involved? By the time you do decide to move to a bigger city or start submitting your resume you will have results that you can show potential employers and show how serious you are at being a programmer.
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Are you down voting all of my posts? Your debator points match the hits I'm getting.
"the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011) "It is the celestial scrotum of good luck!" - Nagy Vilmos (2011) "But you probably have the smoothest scrotum of any grown man" - Pete O'Hanlon (2012)I down voted some of them when you first posted but most of them have multiple down votes (aka not just me). I just upvoted your post on my resume thread though. I'm not a complete ass. XD
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I down voted some of them when you first posted but most of them have multiple down votes (aka not just me). I just upvoted your post on my resume thread though. I'm not a complete ass. XD
I get down votes all the time. Price you pay for speaking your mind here. I just saw a slew of (-2) down votes in a row on the same thread and figured it was you. You are not an ass for down voting me and you don't need to up vote me either. -- Cheers :)
"the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011) "It is the celestial scrotum of good luck!" - Nagy Vilmos (2011) "But you probably have the smoothest scrotum of any grown man" - Pete O'Hanlon (2012) -
I get down votes all the time. Price you pay for speaking your mind here. I just saw a slew of (-2) down votes in a row on the same thread and figured it was you. You are not an ass for down voting me and you don't need to up vote me either. -- Cheers :)
"the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011) "It is the celestial scrotum of good luck!" - Nagy Vilmos (2011) "But you probably have the smoothest scrotum of any grown man" - Pete O'Hanlon (2012)At least this isn't gamedev.net ... I once posted a thread asking people their theories of life and death. Due to one post I made (not trollish or mean, just a misunderstanding.) I was down voted so much that I couldn't post. (That's right, negative rep means you can't post on gamedev, and this was NOT a ban.) Couldn't delete the account, not allowed to have two accounts, so I just don't go over there anymore. Hell, your responses would appear nice compared to what I've experienced there...
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How am I being disrespectful... instead of judging me, you could explain what I'm doing wrong so I can change. My response wasn't facetious, I honestly don't understand why someone who's unemployed doesn't have the right to say their position of unemployment sucks...
Some of your replies here will scare away potential employers, if someone tells you not to complain and you reply "why not?" that's just rude. Try to develop polite ways of dealing with people and don't show too much stubbornness. :)
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Some of your replies here will scare away potential employers, if someone tells you not to complain and you reply "why not?" that's just rude. Try to develop polite ways of dealing with people and don't show too much stubbornness. :)
So it's rude of me to ask why I can't complain but it's not rude for him to tell me to stop complaining in the first place or for you to tell me I'm whining and trippng? I don't know the guy and respect is earned. Seriously, if you don't want to hear my whining, it's as simple as not reading and posting in the thread. People need to vent sometimes and faulting them for it makes you childish.
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I've been programming since I was in middle school nine years (almost 10) ago. I've known since then that this was the career for me. The only problem is, I can't find my first job. It doesn't help that I'm in a small town with no programming jobs. I'm slowly working towards a degree but due to two bad years, I feel I'm falling behind. I'm 22... I should have graduated by now but I haven't even earned my associates degree. I don't know if I can make it through 3 more years of college. It's very tempting to save up some money and just move to a big city with lots of jobs (like Seattle) but I'd have no guarantee that I'd get a job. I'm so bored with my life. I want to earn a living programming. How do you get your first programming job? <.>
This is (some of) the reality of today: Vworker.com Odesk.com Guru.com Elance.com … Get out there and start bidding (if you want your “first” “job”). It’s how I “restarted” my career after being “outsourced”.
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My first IT interview went something along the lines of: "Can you start tomorrow?" "Yes" "Okay: you can work from home, I'll see that everything you need is delivered tomorrow." and I only went in on a Friday morning to get my time-sheet signed. Ah, happy days!
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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I've been programming since I was in middle school nine years (almost 10) ago. I've known since then that this was the career for me. The only problem is, I can't find my first job. It doesn't help that I'm in a small town with no programming jobs. I'm slowly working towards a degree but due to two bad years, I feel I'm falling behind. I'm 22... I should have graduated by now but I haven't even earned my associates degree. I don't know if I can make it through 3 more years of college. It's very tempting to save up some money and just move to a big city with lots of jobs (like Seattle) but I'd have no guarantee that I'd get a job. I'm so bored with my life. I want to earn a living programming. How do you get your first programming job? <.>
What's wrong with the traditional methods? Get know, advertise your skills and interests. Where you live is not important any more! Search for internships that you can do online. Search for projects you can participate in online. Email your resume to companies you want to work for. Create a LinkedIn Account or other similar Accounts. Start a Blog to get known. etc.
"Courtesy is the product of a mature, disciplined mind ... ridicule is lack of the same - DPM"
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So it's rude of me to ask why I can't complain but it's not rude for him to tell me to stop complaining in the first place or for you to tell me I'm whining and trippng? I don't know the guy and respect is earned. Seriously, if you don't want to hear my whining, it's as simple as not reading and posting in the thread. People need to vent sometimes and faulting them for it makes you childish.
perhaps you should come out more positive, that way you can impress, you question tells me more about your weakness i think try to show that you are strong and positive in life to land that job, crying like a baby won't land you a job, that's a fact be positive that's my advice wish you luck.:)
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perhaps you should come out more positive, that way you can impress, you question tells me more about your weakness i think try to show that you are strong and positive in life to land that job, crying like a baby won't land you a job, that's a fact be positive that's my advice wish you luck.:)
You still don't get it. I wouldn't have made this thread if I wasn't fealing down in a rut. When I'm positive and gung ho about pressing forward in life, I have no need to post on a forum about it. But when I have a brief moment of self pity and I want ideas about how to get out of my rut, I get chastized by people who have nothing better to do. The fact is, when you complain about someone complaining... you're participating in the same thing you fault them far. That's hypocricy by its very definition. You can't take a single thread someone makes as a sample of how they always feel. The vast majority of the time I'm happy about where I am in life. Telling someone to not complain is very unhealthy for them. It leads to supressing emotions and have dramatic outburst. It's better that I take a day to feel hopeless and move on than keeping it with me, nagging me day in and day out. More people need to think empathetically before posting. Try to understand why someone's posting what they post.
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You still don't get it. I wouldn't have made this thread if I wasn't fealing down in a rut. When I'm positive and gung ho about pressing forward in life, I have no need to post on a forum about it. But when I have a brief moment of self pity and I want ideas about how to get out of my rut, I get chastized by people who have nothing better to do. The fact is, when you complain about someone complaining... you're participating in the same thing you fault them far. That's hypocricy by its very definition. You can't take a single thread someone makes as a sample of how they always feel. The vast majority of the time I'm happy about where I am in life. Telling someone to not complain is very unhealthy for them. It leads to supressing emotions and have dramatic outburst. It's better that I take a day to feel hopeless and move on than keeping it with me, nagging me day in and day out. More people need to think empathetically before posting. Try to understand why someone's posting what they post.
well i think i get you, i'am not complaining about you complaining. Just trying to tell you that there can be potential employers here who will see more of your negative side. You are not marketing yourself properly that's my point. Code project is full of developers who can help you out. Try exposing your weakness to people you are very close to, not potential employers.
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I've been programming since I was in middle school nine years (almost 10) ago. I've known since then that this was the career for me. The only problem is, I can't find my first job. It doesn't help that I'm in a small town with no programming jobs. I'm slowly working towards a degree but due to two bad years, I feel I'm falling behind. I'm 22... I should have graduated by now but I haven't even earned my associates degree. I don't know if I can make it through 3 more years of college. It's very tempting to save up some money and just move to a big city with lots of jobs (like Seattle) but I'd have no guarantee that I'd get a job. I'm so bored with my life. I want to earn a living programming. How do you get your first programming job? <.>
Stephen Dycus wrote:
How do you get your first programming job?
By applying to internships that were posted on my college. I don't know how your college works but you can try to look if there are companies posting job opportunities there. Even though you have more experience the the usual college student, you've got to start somewhere and that's usually through internships so you can have your first "formal" experience. From there you can work your way up very quickly as you prove your skills. You can use the internship as a sling to better positions on other companies. Of course, living on a small town probably does not help much in this scenario. Or you should try to commute to a close and bigger city. If I were you, I'd transfer your studies to a college in a bigger city, so you can work while studying (it's tough, because you won't have time for a lot of stuff besides working and studying). I've been there, it's rough but it's worth it, it makes you stronger. But you should finish college. It's already tough to land on good jobs with a degree, without a degree, it can be much harder. Although a degree is far from proving how good you are, unfortunately that's how the job market works. You have to work hard, good luck on your journey.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson ---- Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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I'm not "bored" with the amount of work, I'm impatient with the amount of time I have to wait. Classes are fun for me. I wrote my British lit 2 paper in 2 hours (and made 195/200 on it), course work has always come easy for me. I guess in that sense, sometimes I get bored. The work is too slow for me sometimes. But that doesn't mean I give up... I've read a couple books on data structures, OOP Theory, and algorithms. I'm currenly reading: The Art of Computer Programming[^] I almost have a "tremendous game" to show off. The last thing to put into the engine I'm designing is a text system. (Text may seem trivial to implement, but it's not that easy on android. My options are to use Android's slow text overlay or roll my own with OpenGL ES.... I'm doing the later :D) Android has been a great learning experience. I got my first exposure to threading thanks to android. ^^ I taught my VB class one day during my senior year since the teacher saw that I had made a Sonic the Hedgehog game in class... I've been working on large scale personal projects (games) for... 4 years? I'm not a genius, but I have been competent for a while. (Not necessarily competent enough for hire mind you. But my collective experience up to this point does make me feel ready for hire.)
Stephen Dycus wrote:
I've read a couple books on data structures, OOP Theory, and algorithms.
So did I before I took those classes in college. Believe me, I thought I knew a lot and I knew nothing as the classes had shown me. Classes are a closer to real world than books are. I love reading books, but they just prepare the foundations for the real world experience. In the end I have to agree with SeattleC++. A degree makes the difference and real world experience is what really counts. If you don't have those, you're going to get smoked at the interview. There are many things that books and good programming skills do not teach us. Internships are a good place to start so you can get started and start to see how the big companies run. From requirement analysis, resource management, architecture, to programming skills, delivery, training, etc. There's too much that is hard to be self taught. But who knows, as Seattle C++ mentioned, you might be a genius with a tremendous game to show off or you simply may get lucky or start your own company. If that's what you believe, don't let anyone hold you off, but you need to be well grounded to realize that you're not that and start working your a** off to build your career up.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson ---- Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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I've been programming since I was in middle school nine years (almost 10) ago. I've known since then that this was the career for me. The only problem is, I can't find my first job. It doesn't help that I'm in a small town with no programming jobs. I'm slowly working towards a degree but due to two bad years, I feel I'm falling behind. I'm 22... I should have graduated by now but I haven't even earned my associates degree. I don't know if I can make it through 3 more years of college. It's very tempting to save up some money and just move to a big city with lots of jobs (like Seattle) but I'd have no guarantee that I'd get a job. I'm so bored with my life. I want to earn a living programming. How do you get your first programming job? <.>
I'm almost 36. These days I can find a new job without much difficulty. But it wasn't always that easy. School had always been a frustrating prison. Nobody really helped a lot; they just wanted me to tough it out. I grew up in small towns and my only access to computers was at school. During study hall in junior high I would beg to use the Apple IIs in the computer lab. Most of the time it didn't happen and other times much of the period was wasted before I could even get permission from the librarian. My local library had a book of BASIC games. I spent a lot time reading the programs and understanding them from the printed page. I also started writing my own programs in a notebook. Later in high school, I printed out all the QuickBASIC sample games on a dot matrix printer and read those listings at home. I got excited about taking the programming courses available in high school. Despite being an advanced mathematics student and winning at several mathematics competitions, I was not allowed to take programming as a freshman. The best I could do was get special permission from one of the teachers/administrators. My friend and I were able to use the computers for a brief time in the mornings and up to about an hour after school when she left for home. When it came time to enroll in Computer Programming as a sophomore they tried to say that Algebra II was a prerequisite and I'd have to wait another year. But I refused to wait any longer and they decided that it would be ok to take it concurrently. As a senior I didn't know what to do next. Because I was burned out on school and tired of being slowed down, I ended up going to a tech school for a computer electronics associate degree. The recruiter was able to capture my imagination by selling me a lie. Sure we did a small bit of BASIC and Motorola assembly, but he allowed me to fantasize about tearing into the internals of MS-DOS 6. I wish my parents had helped guide me better; I wasted money and about two years of my life. Avoid tech schools. I was desperate to go to college where the real learning takes place. But even there I was frustrated by the pace and I was surprised that the students didn't care more now that the education was no longer free. The thought of waiting several more years was a downer and I didn't always picture myself making it to graduation. The Dean of Mathematics let me and a friend into his Modern Algebra classes. People like him tried to help, but mostly they just followed the system. We took a couple of teams to the AC
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I've been programming since I was in middle school nine years (almost 10) ago. I've known since then that this was the career for me. The only problem is, I can't find my first job. It doesn't help that I'm in a small town with no programming jobs. I'm slowly working towards a degree but due to two bad years, I feel I'm falling behind. I'm 22... I should have graduated by now but I haven't even earned my associates degree. I don't know if I can make it through 3 more years of college. It's very tempting to save up some money and just move to a big city with lots of jobs (like Seattle) but I'd have no guarantee that I'd get a job. I'm so bored with my life. I want to earn a living programming. How do you get your first programming job? <.>
Decide how you want your future to be. Map it out on paper. Since you are focusing on career spend a day or two with how you want your work day to be like. What do you want to be working on? Small or big company? Where do you want to move to? What are your other interests outside of work? A big city would be a fun move for you and get you a lot of life experience. You can join lots of groups in all interest areas. Keep this vision handy so each and every day you have to study and take tests you know you are one step closer to your future self. I suggest to continue working and get that degree no matter the cost! It's a pain in the ass sometimes I know (I have a B.S. and M.S. and I nearly had a nervous breakdown with the M.S. as I am not good with academics but I work really hard, and I stuck it out and graduated.) Once you get that degree it's DONE. A degree takes you places and gets you in the door. Without a degree you are a step behind (regardless of others without a degree have made it). There are exceptions. I recall a web post where someone complained that it will take FOUR YEARS to get a degree. The person replies, How old will you be in four years without the degree? 26. How old will you be in four years WITH the degree? 26. Slow and steady wins the race. You can see and do many more things with cash from solid employment. Keep the goal in mind so you can get through each and every day. Keep your face to the sun and you will not see the shadow. P.S. I forgot to also recommend internships as others stated about. Make this a priority! Internships will gain you valuable experience. Study, take breaks, get the best grades you can, write code that people can download and use so you can build a nice resume over time.
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I'm almost 36. These days I can find a new job without much difficulty. But it wasn't always that easy. School had always been a frustrating prison. Nobody really helped a lot; they just wanted me to tough it out. I grew up in small towns and my only access to computers was at school. During study hall in junior high I would beg to use the Apple IIs in the computer lab. Most of the time it didn't happen and other times much of the period was wasted before I could even get permission from the librarian. My local library had a book of BASIC games. I spent a lot time reading the programs and understanding them from the printed page. I also started writing my own programs in a notebook. Later in high school, I printed out all the QuickBASIC sample games on a dot matrix printer and read those listings at home. I got excited about taking the programming courses available in high school. Despite being an advanced mathematics student and winning at several mathematics competitions, I was not allowed to take programming as a freshman. The best I could do was get special permission from one of the teachers/administrators. My friend and I were able to use the computers for a brief time in the mornings and up to about an hour after school when she left for home. When it came time to enroll in Computer Programming as a sophomore they tried to say that Algebra II was a prerequisite and I'd have to wait another year. But I refused to wait any longer and they decided that it would be ok to take it concurrently. As a senior I didn't know what to do next. Because I was burned out on school and tired of being slowed down, I ended up going to a tech school for a computer electronics associate degree. The recruiter was able to capture my imagination by selling me a lie. Sure we did a small bit of BASIC and Motorola assembly, but he allowed me to fantasize about tearing into the internals of MS-DOS 6. I wish my parents had helped guide me better; I wasted money and about two years of my life. Avoid tech schools. I was desperate to go to college where the real learning takes place. But even there I was frustrated by the pace and I was surprised that the students didn't care more now that the education was no longer free. The thought of waiting several more years was a downer and I didn't always picture myself making it to graduation. The Dean of Mathematics let me and a friend into his Modern Algebra classes. People like him tried to help, but mostly they just followed the system. We took a couple of teams to the AC
Wow, what an eerily similar story... I started off making Dark Basic games(yeah, yeah laugh it up... it was my first language :P). My school refused to let me take programming til my senior year because I hadn't taken Digital Communications (essentially a typing class mixed with learning the MS Office Suite -.-) so I joined the MagnIT program to take a programming course at my community college during my Junior year instead (suck it, prereqs :P). I wasted a year after high school taking irrelevant courses at my community college because my adviser told me to (he wanted me to get an e-commerce certificate... it's sort of useful but really not my goal) but I wised up and got into UNC Charlotte instead. While there I succumbed to the pressures of trying to pay bills and go to college so I wound up dropping out. I tried to keep the apartment for a year but eventually my paycheck didn't match my costs and I was evicted. Now I'm back in school shooting for a degree. Thank you for sharing your story. (also, I didn't read any of that as arrogant) ^^