Marikana murder charges: South Africa minister wants explanation
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harold aptroot wrote:
How is "it isn't your fault if you drink to much, it is the gin maker's fault for making it for you to drink" not an analogy?
Because drinking isn't a crime. While robbing a bank is.
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Brady Kelly wrote:
Yes, yes, and yes.
And so with a running mob at 40 ft you were trained, as a group, for a single member to shoot a single runner? And wait to see if the rest of them stopped?
Brady Kelly wrote:
And the friend of mine whose view I posted, which you seem to have mistaken for my personal input despite my stating it wasn't,
I quoted exactly what I was responding to. And there was no qualification from you, for what I quoted, that suggested that it wasn't your opinion.
Brady Kelly wrote:
And the friend of mine
And my friend, also in the military and with combat experience, has no problem taking careful aim and delivering a single shot to stop a target. Of course that happened when he was acting a sniper and doing his shooting from a lot further away than 40 ft.
jschell wrote:
I quoted exactly what I was responding to. And there was no qualification from you, for what I quoted, that suggested that it wasn't your opinion.
Pardon me, I intended the heading of "Some thoughts from a very good friend of mine:" to convey that. I don't know how, but next time I will try my best to make it more explicit.
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harold aptroot wrote:
That's rather why it is an analogy, as opposed to "exactly the same thing".
Your analogies were not even close to being apt.
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jschell wrote:
I quoted exactly what I was responding to. And there was no qualification from you, for what I quoted, that suggested that it wasn't your opinion.
Pardon me, I intended the heading of "Some thoughts from a very good friend of mine:" to convey that. I don't know how, but next time I will try my best to make it more explicit.
Brady Kelly wrote:
Pardon me, I intended the heading of "Some thoughts from a very good friend of mine:" to convey that.
Took me some searching to figure out what this was even referring to since it wasn't in this sub thread. So, in your opinion based on your training, not your friends, should a police force attempt a single shot to stop a running armed mob at 40 ft? And to clarify is it your friends contention that, that he was trained to do that, again with a mob (not small group), seriously armed, running and at 40 ft?
Brady Kelly wrote:
I don't know how, but next time I will try my best to make it more explicit.
Naturally one way is to post your own views and let your friend post theirs with their own account.
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I always find it odd when people claim that they are joking and yet vigorously defend the joke. A joke of course is either funny or not. Nothing more.
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Brady Kelly wrote:
Pardon me, I intended the heading of "Some thoughts from a very good friend of mine:" to convey that.
Took me some searching to figure out what this was even referring to since it wasn't in this sub thread. So, in your opinion based on your training, not your friends, should a police force attempt a single shot to stop a running armed mob at 40 ft? And to clarify is it your friends contention that, that he was trained to do that, again with a mob (not small group), seriously armed, running and at 40 ft?
Brady Kelly wrote:
I don't know how, but next time I will try my best to make it more explicit.
Naturally one way is to post your own views and let your friend post theirs with their own account.
Neither, on your first questions, and as for my friend; he is a South African, with a good sense of the finer points applicable to things that happen in our country, but he is not a software developer and has no account with CodeProject. Then, neither of us are trained policemen, which is my main point here. I am of the opinion that police deployed to a hostile protest should be specialists, at least their on-the-ground leaders deployed with them should be specialists. Your main point seems to be the threat at 40ft. Why did the police maintain such a small distance between them and hostile protesters? My view is that they thought, "we're ok, we have R5 automatics". That, to me, is wrong.
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South Africa's justice minister has demanded an explanation after 270 miners were charged with the murder of their colleagues who were shot by police.
:wtf: Seriously, W.T.F? Police shoot 34 miners and then charge their fellow miners with the deaths? How in the name of elephanted up stupid inbreeding mother-lovers did they even think they'd get away with this? Please, can anyone explain this to me, I would really like to know.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
And, in retrospect, this thread is not about who shot first, but about how 200 or so innocent miners could possibly be charged with the murder of, not their opponents, but their comrades. This was not a mass suicide and I am glad that our courts have recognized that. I am even more glad that we have courts that are allowed to make decisions like that.
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I did not vigorously defend anything. At best I defended (regularly) my use of the word analogy. And funniness is not an absolute concept.
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Neither, on your first questions, and as for my friend; he is a South African, with a good sense of the finer points applicable to things that happen in our country, but he is not a software developer and has no account with CodeProject. Then, neither of us are trained policemen, which is my main point here. I am of the opinion that police deployed to a hostile protest should be specialists, at least their on-the-ground leaders deployed with them should be specialists. Your main point seems to be the threat at 40ft. Why did the police maintain such a small distance between them and hostile protesters? My view is that they thought, "we're ok, we have R5 automatics". That, to me, is wrong.
Brady Kelly wrote:
Then, neither of us are trained policemen, which is my main point here. I am of the opinion that police deployed to a hostile protest should be specialists, at least their on-the-ground leaders deployed with them should be specialists.
Could be. That however has nothing to do with what those police did nor how appropriate their actions were for any type of police force. And it certainly doesn't have anything to do with removing responsibility from the individuals in the running mob.
Brady Kelly wrote:
Why did the police maintain such a small distance between them and hostile protesters? My view is that they thought, "we're ok, we have R5 automatics".
My thought is that statement has nothing at all to do with the action taken nor cupability of the members of the mob. Now it could be that some higher up needs to be fired. Or several need to be fired. And/or that police procedures need to be re-written. But the individuals of the mob STILL got what they deserved. And in the future if any such police force or even a military force finds themselves in the situation that a running armed mob is 40 ft from them then they should STILL open up with all the fire power that they have.
Brady Kelly wrote:
That, to me, is wrong
To me attempting to attack, threaten or even agressively move towards someone with a machete is wrong. And where I live police would have no problem blasting away at any individuals doing that.
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harold aptroot wrote:
I did not vigorously defend anything.
"That's rather why it is an analogy..."
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Brady Kelly wrote:
Then, neither of us are trained policemen, which is my main point here. I am of the opinion that police deployed to a hostile protest should be specialists, at least their on-the-ground leaders deployed with them should be specialists.
Could be. That however has nothing to do with what those police did nor how appropriate their actions were for any type of police force. And it certainly doesn't have anything to do with removing responsibility from the individuals in the running mob.
Brady Kelly wrote:
Why did the police maintain such a small distance between them and hostile protesters? My view is that they thought, "we're ok, we have R5 automatics".
My thought is that statement has nothing at all to do with the action taken nor cupability of the members of the mob. Now it could be that some higher up needs to be fired. Or several need to be fired. And/or that police procedures need to be re-written. But the individuals of the mob STILL got what they deserved. And in the future if any such police force or even a military force finds themselves in the situation that a running armed mob is 40 ft from them then they should STILL open up with all the fire power that they have.
Brady Kelly wrote:
That, to me, is wrong
To me attempting to attack, threaten or even agressively move towards someone with a machete is wrong. And where I live police would have no problem blasting away at any individuals doing that.
jschell wrote:
blasting away at any individuals
Not just anyone in the vicinity of individuals doing that though. If I was cajoled into joining a crowd to protest for more pay, and suddenly people at the front of the crowd starting waving machetes at the Man, and suddenly I got shot for that, I would be pissed.
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jschell wrote:
blasting away at any individuals
Not just anyone in the vicinity of individuals doing that though. If I was cajoled into joining a crowd to protest for more pay, and suddenly people at the front of the crowd starting waving machetes at the Man, and suddenly I got shot for that, I would be pissed.
Brady Kelly wrote:
If I was cajoled into joining a crowd to protest for more pay, and suddenly people at the front of the crowd starting waving machetes at the Man, and suddenly I got shot for that, I would be pissed.
That of course has nothing to do with what happened however. They weren't "suddenly" waving them and the police were not approaching the regular crowd at all. Instead the armed individuals took it upon themselves to attack the police and it certainly appears that only the attackers were shot.
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Had this shooting happened in the USA or anywhere in Europ there would not have been such an outcry againsst the police. Taking into consideration that the miners already killed 10 of there own and 2 police officers, what are 40 or so cops supposed to do when an angry mob of 3000 + workers approach them waving machettes? The protesters even cut body parts of the people they murdered for muti (potions brewed by witch doctors known as sangomas). The sad part is that most protesters turn to violence here in South Africa. I for one can say that I would open fire, if an angry mob had to approach me waving machettes that can sever a limb or kill you with one blow. Anyone that does not agree with that can get lost.
If only closed minds would come with closed mouths. Ego non sum semper iustus tamen Ego sum nunquam nefas!