What exactly doesn't work?
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I'm not scared of it, but there has to be a tangible, calculable return on the investment of time and money. i.e. OK, Microsoft, I'll give you my money, but what do I get for it that I wouldn't have if I didn't give it to you? Better start-up speed and performance? That won't last. An extra interface, which is designed for devices that I won't be installing the OS on? Not what I'd call a profit. More stuff using the flatulent interface? That goes in the loss column. What is there? Where's the profit? What will I gain from this investment? You say that if I don't need it, I shouldn't buy it, but how am I supposed to make an assessment of need if no-one will talk straight, in unbiased and un-shock-horror tones, about the pros and cons?
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark Wallace wrote:
I'm not scared of it, but there has to be a tangible, calculable return on the investment of time and money.
Concur.
Mark Wallace wrote:
i.e. OK, Microsoft, I'll give you my money, but what do I get for it that I wouldn't have if I didn't give it to you?
Better start-up speed and performance? That won't last.
An extra interface, which is designed for devices that I won't be installing the OS on? Not what I'd call a profit.
More stuff using the flatulent interface? That goes in the loss column.
What is there? Where's the profit? What will I gain from this investment?You pretty much just have to look at the feature set and filter it through your needs/desires. Try it in a VM on your machine - that will give you a heads-up on whether the thing would suit you or not.
Mark Wallace wrote:
You say that if I don't need it, I shouldn't buy it, but how am I supposed to make an assessment of need if no-one will talk straight, in unbiased and un-shock-horror tones, about the pros and cons?
As I just said, only you can determine the real pros and cons for your situation. Personally I have no use for the thing myself. -CB
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Why do I need to fork out for yet another operating system?
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
You won't need to "fork out" much. And it can be tried-out for free. "If your current PC is running any of the three latest Windows operating systems, you'll be able to upgrade to Windows 8 for $39.99." http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-windows-8-registration-opens-20120821,0,542531.story[^]
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Mark is a wise man. He has good args. You should all listen to him. My bet is that he also skipped the XP to Vista sell, and went from xp to W7. Let all the eager find and have the problems and then invest when the OS is more mature and stable. Also beware because he has a blunt bread knife...
grralph1 wrote:
My bet is that he also skipped the XP to Vista sell, and went from xp to W7
Actually, I do have a Vista machine, and am so happy with it that I still use it as one of my main machines (it had pretty huge specs, for the time, so the performance problems that a lot of people encountered weren't an issue). But even Vista included several major changes/enhancements that could be proponed in favour of the upgrade. I just can't see anything that big or worthy in Win 8. Win 7 most certainly cannot be defined as broken. What have they fixed?
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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You won't need to "fork out" much. And it can be tried-out for free. "If your current PC is running any of the three latest Windows operating systems, you'll be able to upgrade to Windows 8 for $39.99." http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-windows-8-registration-opens-20120821,0,542531.story[^]
It's the time and effort that cost the most. If all I get for Win 8 is slightly better performance, I'll do better to just buy another batch of new motherboards/chips. That might cost more than upgrading the OS, but the cost is almost negligible, compared to the cost of the time and effort it would take to get everything working as I need it. It takes less time to install a motherboard than it does to install a substantial application, not to mention the amount of time it takes to configure everything in the app to the way you're used to and/or need.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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- Create Apps distributable through Windows Store - Support for Near Field Communication[^] - Store your profile in the cloud, sharing your settings and files on multiple computers that have acces to the internet - Taskbar on each Monitor. YAY! Separate wallpapers for each monitor out of the box. Double YAY! - Explorer now has an "Up" button again! TRIPLE YAY! - Preview improved. They say. - Mount ISO, IMG, VHD in explorer - Pretty shiny task manager - Faster reinstall when your boot times go down the drain! Ha! Take that! - USB 3.0 (ugh) - Hyper-V on board - ReFS and Storage Spaces
FILETIME to time_t
| FoldWithUs! | sighist | WhoIncludes - Analyzing C++ include file hierarchypeterchen wrote:
- Create Apps distributable through Windows Store
That may generate that extra buck for creating software people don't need.
peterchen wrote:
- Explorer now has an "Up" button again! TRIPLE YAY!
Oh, how much I've missed that one.
peterchen wrote:
- Mount ISO, IMG, VHD in explorer
Handy!
peterchen wrote:
- Pretty shiny task manager
Well, it couldn't get any worse than it was.
peterchen wrote:
- USB 3.0 (ugh)
My USB 3.0 ports weren't using 3.0 bandwitch?
peterchen wrote:
- ReFS and Storage Spaces
Still have to assess the advantages of it, but I welcome FS improvements.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson ---- Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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Why do I need to fork out for yet another operating system?
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
I'll give you my no BS, been using it since it was released to MSDN full time, reasons why I switched to Windows 8 and am not looking back: (in no particular order) 1) I like the new start screen. I can pin what I want and exclude what I don't. But anything I don't want to see all the time is just a few search keystrokes away. And custom grouping is nice too. And those live tiles are handy as hell. 2) I can use Desktop apps and Windows 8 UI apps (I like the freedom to choose) 3) Hyper-V ready and waiting is a huge plus for me. 4) I have gained an extra 30 minutes of battery life. (That is a big deal to me) 5) The Charms menu at first was a little weird, but once I got the hang of when to use it and why, it's a massive time saver. 6) The ability to reinstall quickly without loosing data sounds great on paper, but since I actually had to use it on day 2 I can tell you it's a far better feature in reality than it sounds. 7) I use Zune Pass and have an XBOX, the integration there is really nice. (Granted the music app could be less focused on Zune (Xbox) music and a little more focused on my personal collection but that's me nit picking) 8) The new desktop look is great, but I always thought Aero Glass was just a way to waste CPU cycles with out any real gain. 9) The improved Explorer eliminates the menu bloat it had in older versions. In 7 unhiding the extensions of known file types first requires you to a) know hitting alt will reveal the menu. b) then opening a dialog, changing tabs, and scrolling down and then unchecking the box. In 8, 1 click on a check box in the View tab on the ribbon. How about sharing, in 7 it's mostly context menu stuff. In 8 whether I want to email, burn, print or network share it's all on the Share tab. 10) The improved Task Manager not only looks pretty, but has startup apps and services management baked in as well. All in one place. 11) Shadow copy has gotten a massive boot in the ass. I have felt it was a neglected feature in Windows for a few versions now. Now it's very much available and much easier to use effectively. (now it's called File Versions) So there you go, there are 11 reasons I love Windows 8 (off the top of my head, I am sure I can come up with some more)
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Rob Grainger wrote:
There's many more, but really I can't be bothered to do your googling for you.
This isn't about googling for the opinions of people who are biased by personal preference or in favour of what goes well with the limited use they make of their machines; it's about asking software professionals what they think is useful and/or not so. For example, if I look at one search result, it says, as you have: - Improved Task Manager - Improved File Copy Dialog Then I look at another, to find: - f***ed-up Task Manager - f***ed-up File Copy Dialog And both are written by people who appear to spend all their time writing blogs that are focused on saying how great they/members of their peer group/their preferred OS providers are. They don't say a single word that carries the kind of value I'm looking for. I'm a professional, asking professionals for their opinions. If your professional opinion is that a lmgtfy answer is appropriate, then perhaps you're not acting quite as professionally as you might.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
As a professional I can see nothing wrong with Win 8. It is much faster and the apps we write run better on it. Marginally better, but better non the less. The huge brouhaha centers around the interface which seems to evoke strong reactions especially among desktop developers. The reality is that a shrinkwrapped app, like ours, simply installs as usual and its desktop presence is an icon within a tile. Click the tile and the app starts and runs. There is no need whatsoever to program to the whole-window "Metro" sytle if you don't want to. And there is a slew of new hot-keys that can help improve your productivity. Whether you adopt it personally, I think, depends on your user base. If you think your users will adopt it, then you should as well; if only to be able to support their use of your product. It's a good, working and workable product. Definitely no Vista. But it is not a "Must have". Hope this helps.
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Why do I need to fork out for yet another operating system?
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
The Pause Copy Button!! Sorry for the excitement, it's just that I've been waiting for it for twelve years now.
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peterchen wrote:
- Create Apps distributable through Windows Store
That may generate that extra buck for creating software people don't need.
peterchen wrote:
- Explorer now has an "Up" button again! TRIPLE YAY!
Oh, how much I've missed that one.
peterchen wrote:
- Mount ISO, IMG, VHD in explorer
Handy!
peterchen wrote:
- Pretty shiny task manager
Well, it couldn't get any worse than it was.
peterchen wrote:
- USB 3.0 (ugh)
My USB 3.0 ports weren't using 3.0 bandwitch?
peterchen wrote:
- ReFS and Storage Spaces
Still have to assess the advantages of it, but I welcome FS improvements.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson ---- Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
Fabio Franco wrote:
My USB 3.0 ports weren't using 3.0 bandwitch?
OK, more like "USB 3 out of the box". AFAIK, with Windows 7 you need drivers from the manufacturer.
Fabio Franco wrote:
Still have to assess the advantages of it, but I welcome FS improvements.
I welcome the approach to make the underlying file system simpler, instead of "more advanced" (air quotes). it certainly looks like a first step into a certain direction right now, let's see how it works out. Anyway, together with storage spaces it looks rather promising.
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| FoldWithUs! | sighist | WhoIncludes - Analyzing C++ include file hierarchy -
Just (to reveal my secret) a little wikipedia excerpt :) FWIW I wouldn't exactly look forward to USB 3.0, the little I get is crooks on kludges, and "consumer quality" cables will do the rest. But then, some corners of USB 2.0 isn't to far from that, too. There are probably some API enhancements, too.
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| FoldWithUs! | sighist | WhoIncludes - Analyzing C++ include file hierarchyUSB 3.0 is 10 times faster than USB 2.0 -- it's an extremely big deal if you are going to tranfer lots of date over USB. Of course, if all you have is USB 2.0 peripherials and USB 2.0 on your motherboard, then you are right -- it doesn't make any difference. USB 3.0 is far less of a kludge than 2.0 is. And at this point the devices that are for sale that are certified USB 3.0 are pretty damn solid. I'm willing to bet that USB 3.0 captures more market share than eSATA, Thunderbolt, external PCIe and Firewire combined.
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USB 3.0 is 10 times faster than USB 2.0 -- it's an extremely big deal if you are going to tranfer lots of date over USB. Of course, if all you have is USB 2.0 peripherials and USB 2.0 on your motherboard, then you are right -- it doesn't make any difference. USB 3.0 is far less of a kludge than 2.0 is. And at this point the devices that are for sale that are certified USB 3.0 are pretty damn solid. I'm willing to bet that USB 3.0 captures more market share than eSATA, Thunderbolt, external PCIe and Firewire combined.
What scares me most is actualy the cables. I've been working on the PC side of custom communications protocols over the last 10 years. The only thing special about our applications is that they need to run uninterrupted for days. (Not so special is the unfortunate idea of why pay $10 for a component if someone else promises to do the same for $2?) The problems I've seen with cables even for interrupt protocol (i.e. very little data) solved by swapping out a USB cable, or adding or removing an USB hub from the chain are scary already. There's a significant chunk of transparent error recovery I've implemented - though this is limited both by lack of support of the protocols and the forgetfulness of bus powered devices. The thing is, it's probably getting worse for USB 3. Cable length and cable quality will matter much more at 2.5GHz.
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| FoldWithUs! | sighist | WhoIncludes - Analyzing C++ include file hierarchy -
Why do I need to fork out for yet another operating system?
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
you don't have to do anything. If you don't want to buy Windows or Apple. Then don't buy it. You can use any of the free Linux operating systems. If you want to use a new product, whatever it might be that interests you about it, then buy it. Its as simple as that. Can you say that everything you own is critical to your existence?? Computers and operating systems are very much in the optional luxury category. You only buy it if you can afford and you want some entertainment that it offers.
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What scares me most is actualy the cables. I've been working on the PC side of custom communications protocols over the last 10 years. The only thing special about our applications is that they need to run uninterrupted for days. (Not so special is the unfortunate idea of why pay $10 for a component if someone else promises to do the same for $2?) The problems I've seen with cables even for interrupt protocol (i.e. very little data) solved by swapping out a USB cable, or adding or removing an USB hub from the chain are scary already. There's a significant chunk of transparent error recovery I've implemented - though this is limited both by lack of support of the protocols and the forgetfulness of bus powered devices. The thing is, it's probably getting worse for USB 3. Cable length and cable quality will matter much more at 2.5GHz.
FILETIME to time_t
| FoldWithUs! | sighist | WhoIncludes - Analyzing C++ include file hierarchyBelieve it or not, the biggest factor I have seen with USB 3.0 is the connector. USB 3.0 includes de-emphasis and equalization in the spec for the electrical signal that overcomes issues with long cables fairly well. The thing that kills the reliability is the reflection from poor or loose connections -- and reflections are worse with short cables. What makes USB 2.0 so flakey is it's a shared, time-sliced bus that makes all devices on the same hub subject to the foibles of all other devices on the same hub. USB 3.0 on the other hand is not a shared bus. Each device has it's own separate bi-directional pair, so one device stalling the host doesn't affect any other device (at least not electically) -- so I'd actually expect USB 3.0 devices to be more reliable.
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It looks like, although there are a few minor pros, there are minor cons to balance them. I can't see a killer reason to upgrade from Win 7, or a killer reason to invest in Win 8 at all, to be honest, unless it is to be installed on a portable/touch device. I truly don't understand why the-interface-formerly-known-as-metro has been integrated into the PC-environment OS. I doubt very much that apple considered integrating iphone/ipad interface tech into their desktops/laptops, because it simply makes no sense. You might as well integrate car fuel-consumption management software in the OS, so that you only need a single installation disc to install on anything. Oh, well. Win 9 will probably be along before the next three busses get here, so I'll wait for that one, with the hope that more substantial improvements are made for the PC environment.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Have you seen the latest OS X offerings from Apple? They have started making OS X more like the iPhone / iPad, including full screen applications, an application start screen that looks like the home screen of a iPhone / iPad. The worst thing is they added some hot keys that invoke these full screen switches so that if you accidentally hit the wrong key your whole screen changes into something else -- it's down right disconcerting and a real productivity killer. (Since I switch between my Mac and my PC frequently having different hot keys for different things is a real issue.) As far as I'm concerned Apple actually jumped the shark about the same time as Microsoft did...
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you don't have to do anything. If you don't want to buy Windows or Apple. Then don't buy it. You can use any of the free Linux operating systems. If you want to use a new product, whatever it might be that interests you about it, then buy it. Its as simple as that. Can you say that everything you own is critical to your existence?? Computers and operating systems are very much in the optional luxury category. You only buy it if you can afford and you want some entertainment that it offers.
rcarty wrote:
Computers and operating systems are very much in the optional luxury category
Whoa. I get the feeling that we live on different planets.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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The Pause Copy Button!! Sorry for the excitement, it's just that I've been waiting for it for twelve years now.
I use Xplorer2 (and its forerunner 2xExplorer before it), so I've had that for, oh, must be about twelve years, now. Oop! Sorry!
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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As a professional I can see nothing wrong with Win 8. It is much faster and the apps we write run better on it. Marginally better, but better non the less. The huge brouhaha centers around the interface which seems to evoke strong reactions especially among desktop developers. The reality is that a shrinkwrapped app, like ours, simply installs as usual and its desktop presence is an icon within a tile. Click the tile and the app starts and runs. There is no need whatsoever to program to the whole-window "Metro" sytle if you don't want to. And there is a slew of new hot-keys that can help improve your productivity. Whether you adopt it personally, I think, depends on your user base. If you think your users will adopt it, then you should as well; if only to be able to support their use of your product. It's a good, working and workable product. Definitely no Vista. But it is not a "Must have". Hope this helps.
dg6yhw11 wrote:
Hope this helps.
Indeed it does. Cheers.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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- Create Apps distributable through Windows Store - Support for Near Field Communication[^] - Store your profile in the cloud, sharing your settings and files on multiple computers that have acces to the internet - Taskbar on each Monitor. YAY! Separate wallpapers for each monitor out of the box. Double YAY! - Explorer now has an "Up" button again! TRIPLE YAY! - Preview improved. They say. - Mount ISO, IMG, VHD in explorer - Pretty shiny task manager - Faster reinstall when your boot times go down the drain! Ha! Take that! - USB 3.0 (ugh) - Hyper-V on board - ReFS and Storage Spaces
FILETIME to time_t
| FoldWithUs! | sighist | WhoIncludes - Analyzing C++ include file hierarchyI have to say at this point that all versions of Windows since Windows 2000 have had support for NFC in its Smartcard Interface (WinSCard.dll). My take on Win8 is if you want the confusing Metronew interface apps go for it. Personally I'm waiting for Windows to fragment into 2 (again) aimed at tablets/phones and proper computers/desktops/laptops.
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It looks like, although there are a few minor pros, there are minor cons to balance them. I can't see a killer reason to upgrade from Win 7, or a killer reason to invest in Win 8 at all, to be honest, unless it is to be installed on a portable/touch device. I truly don't understand why the-interface-formerly-known-as-metro has been integrated into the PC-environment OS. I doubt very much that apple considered integrating iphone/ipad interface tech into their desktops/laptops, because it simply makes no sense. You might as well integrate car fuel-consumption management software in the OS, so that you only need a single installation disc to install on anything. Oh, well. Win 9 will probably be along before the next three busses get here, so I'll wait for that one, with the hope that more substantial improvements are made for the PC environment.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
TIFKAM awesome and yes MS has jumped the shark with TIFKAM, Im hanging out til Win 9. They have said they will release new OS's more often now with less feature changes to avoid the Vista debacle again, so I wouldn't be surprised if Win 9 comes out in 18 months time.
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Much better, and exactly what I wanted -- no bashing, and no marketing cr@p; just plain ol' useful information. Cheers. - Create Apps distributable through Windows Store Not for me - Support for Near Field Communication That can go as a plus. - Store your profile in the cloud, sharing your settings and files on multiple computers that have acces to the internet Not a plus. I can do all that without the risk of involving the OS. - Taskbar on each Monitor. YAY! Separate wallpapers for each monitor out of the box. Double YAY! The taskbar is a HUGE plus! Wallpapers? meh. - Explorer now has an "Up" button again! TRIPLE YAY! I don't use explorer. - Preview improved. They say. I would probably never notice. - Mount ISO, IMG, VHD in explorer That's a plus. Might even be a good reason to open Explorer, every now and then. - Pretty shiny task manager Might be useful, or, going by other recent "improvements" in that kind of thing, might be just bloat. - Faster reinstall when your boot times go down the drain! Ha! Take that! What, so I won't need windows 9? - USB 3.0 (ugh) I haven't even seen the specs, but as long as it's faster than 2, it's a plus. - Hyper-V on board A plus, but not a huge one (getting it separately is not a big problem) - ReFS and Storage Spaces Could prove to be a big plus for virtualisation More pluses than minuses, so far (I don't consider the tablet interface as a minus, because I'll just ignore it, unless I'm using a tablet), so things don't look as bad as they've been painted.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
"Pretty shiny task manager" is a vast understatement. Just google 'windows 8 taskmanager' and look at how really useful it is. This one feature improvement turned me from "Win8? No thanks, I'm fine with 7" to "Oh yeah, I'll be upgrading." Here's one of the better overviews of Win8 TM: http://www.vikitech.com/11257/walkthrough-windows-8-task-manager[^]
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP.