Warp Drives Feasible in our life-time
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Collin Jasnoch wrote:
Using working theories that it exists allow advancements that are applicable to other fields of research and also allow the targeted field to continue to progress
But it's Not Real. The definition of "exotic matter is "We don't know what it is, what its properties are, or what can be done with it -- but we invented the idea of it, so we'll decide what magic it can do". They can postulate any damned thing they like about such a magical substance. My theory is that exotic matter doesn't possess the properties needed to form a warp field, but it does possess properties that randomly and sporadically make pieces of coffee machines and single socks disappear. And that theory is far more credible as the warp-field theory, because pieces of coffee machines and single socks do disappear -- i.e there is actual empirical evidence to support it! (I'm gonna be RICH! Give me the grant money!) Physics is not "Oh, maybe one day we'll find a magical substance that will let us do miraculous things", it's "This is what we've got; what can we do with it?"
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
You do not find the concept of a Warp Field Interfermeter intriguing?
Are you kidding? There's nothing I'd like more than to see starships built -- but there are few things I like less than self-serving bullsh1t, and self-serving bullsh1t is all these "theories" are.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark Wallace wrote:
They can postulate any damned thing they like about such a magical substance.
Right, and what is postulated is the point. They use those positions to create useful research and in many cases technology.
Mark Wallace wrote:
My theory is that exotic matter doesn't possess the properties needed to form a warp field, but it does possess properties that randomly and sporadically make pieces of coffee machines and single socks disappear.
Well if you have some studies on this happening and you see this being useful to the world by all means why not propose something. I will be honest on this one though.... Not seeing the usefulness. While I have had single socks disappear my theory on that is quite solid. They get stock on the out of season (or fashion) clothes and boxed up. :)
Mark Wallace wrote:
Physics is not "Oh, maybe one day we'll find a magical substance that will let us do miraculous things", it's "This is what we've got; what can we do with it?"
While it is not about magical substances it is about gaining an understanding of substances we do not understand. To quote Galileo: Measure what is measurable and make measurable what is not so. What we call magic one day is known to be truth the next.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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lewax00 wrote:
The article quite clearly states Heisenberg's principle isn't holding up in recent experiments, but a related formula is.
Yes, I can see that I was imprecise in my wording. As I understand it Heisenbergs principle still holds, but his formula/inequality has been violated. The formula by Kennard holds, but it is still the same principle - there is a fundamental limit to the precision of the data that we can obtain about a quantum system. To add to the confusion (quoting from SciAm): "The one that physicists use in everyday research and call Heisenberg's uncertainty principle is in fact Kennard's formulation. It is universally applicable and securely grounded in quantum theory. If it were violated experimentally, the whole of quantum mechanics would break down. Heisenberg's formulation, however, was proposed as conjecture, so quantum mechanics is not shaken by its violation." So physicists apparently confuse general principles and explicit formulas/inequalities too... :)
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Funny, I searched but could not find any mention of di-lithium crystals. Thought they were a critical component. :)
Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. [Yogi Berra] posting about Crystal Reports here is like discussing gay marriage on a catholic church’s website.[Nishant Sivakumar]
They now do this with transparent aluminum; progress!
"Microsoft -- Adding unnecessary complexity to your work since 1987!"
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Jan Holst Jensen2 wrote:
So physicists apparently confuse general principles and explicit formulas/inequalities too... :)
Well if they can't figure it out I'm certainly not going to try to understand it! :laugh:
Right on :laugh: .
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NASA starts development of real life star trek warp drive[^] Actually I Do have the power captain </ScottishAccent>
Quote:
The Eagleworks team has discovered that the energy requirements are much lower than previously thought. If they optimize the warp bubble thickness and "oscillate its intensity to reduce the stiffness of space time," they would be able to reduce the amount of fuel to manageable amount: instead of a Jupiter-sized ball of exotic matter, you will only need 500 kilograms to "send a 10-meter bubble (32.8 feet) at an effective velocity of 10c."
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
My eyes started to shine just by imagining the possibility. Although to me it sounds too good to be actually proven possible in our lifetime, it does make me feel hopeful. I can picture for a moment, Earth's fleet protecting our borders :)
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson ---- Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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Not tea-bags? :java:
You're all wrong. Lasers to separate the virtual particles for vacuum energy (ZPM anyone?). http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19327-lasers-could-make-virtual-particles-real.html[^]
Psychosis at 10 Film at 11 Those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it. Those who do not remember the past, cannot build upon it.
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We have about as much certainty of it existing as the Higgs particle (99.996%). But you do have a point. The idea was it is unrealistic to carry it... I would disagree about the creation though. It may be theoretical science, but that does not mean physics does not apply.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
Yeah, but the Higgs particle was predicted. All this negative energy stuff has to go on is that if you reverse the signs in some general relativity equations, you can create things like "warp bubbles". There is nothing so far that supports reversing that sign.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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Interesting, but I still see a couple of problems, even if it works as intended. Sending a signal back (and without doing that, what's the point?) will still either take 20 or 2 years, but in the 2 year case you'd need to send a warp ship back just to transmit the data. That's going to suck no matter what you do, unless subspace communication turns out to be a real thing. Also, from the moment we successfully test that warp drive, we'll have Vulcans looking over our shoulders while we get into all sorts of unlikely trouble.
That just reminds me how used to instant communication we are now. For the first few million years of our existence communicating with someone even a mile away required sending physical messages. And explorers could be gone without communication for years before returning. :-D
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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I've always been interested in the idea of real warp drives (for example this one[^]). One thing I've always liked about Star Trek is that the science is mostly plausible (the details aren't always right, but the main ideas are usually close). I've also seen a few articles recently about how Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle isn't holding any more, one of the key scientific ideas making transporters impossible. I think this comic[^] sums up my feelings pretty well.
I believe this is the warp drive the NASA is trying to create, although i believe it could have some drawbacks (aside from exotic matter) that must be solved before it can be used for real travel.
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
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Dark matter is just stuff that doesn't give off the gigawatts of electromagnetic energy required for it to be seen with telescopes from Earth -- mainly rocks, dust, etc. (basically, anything that isn't a star). "Dark energy" is essentially the gravitational effect of all this stuff we can't see with telescopes, which has been given a cool name, because otherwise it's deathly boring, and shouldn't really be called an "energy" at all. Warp field theories all rely on "exotic matter", which is something that no-one has found, no-one knows what its properties are, and no-one knows anything about, really -- except that this miraculous, non-existent stuff can be used to allow us to go places quicker than we would be able to by actually travelling according to the laws of Physics. The stuff doesn't exist, so no-one can argue that you've got its properties wrong,and you can come up with all manner of weird and wonderful theories on what it will allow us to do -- turn water to wine, make cats talk, be used to form warp bubbles, etc. Other things like "exotic matter" have been conjectured in the past, like stuff for turning lead into gold, and stuff to weave into carpets to make them fly, and none of them have been any less credible than "exotic matter". Of course, if you're spending all your time on postulating what could be done with magical materials, you're not doing any actual science, and you're not advancing anything, but if your theories get out on the Internet, you'll get a lot of attention, no matter how idiotic the cr@p you spiel is -- if you can't become famous for actually discovering something, then try to become famous for having *Great* *Ideas*, no? Harry Potter would be so proud. When Physicists start basing their academic careers on postulating what we could do if we could find magic charms, I start thinking about how much of my tax money is paying for it.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark Wallace wrote:
Dark matter is just stuff that doesn't give off the gigawatts of electromagnetic energy required for it to be seen with telescopes from Earth -- mainly rocks, dust, etc. (basically, anything that isn't a star).
There is some of that, but there are measurements that can't be supported by rocks, dust, gas, etc. I'd site something online but my source is http://www.amazon.com/Search-Matter-Springer-Praxis-Exploration/dp/0387276165[^], I read it a few years back when I was really skeptical of the premise. It changed my perspective.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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Interesting, but I still see a couple of problems, even if it works as intended. Sending a signal back (and without doing that, what's the point?) will still either take 20 or 2 years, but in the 2 year case you'd need to send a warp ship back just to transmit the data. That's going to suck no matter what you do, unless subspace communication turns out to be a real thing. Also, from the moment we successfully test that warp drive, we'll have Vulcans looking over our shoulders while we get into all sorts of unlikely trouble.
harold aptroot wrote:
Sending a signal back (and without doing that, what's the point?) will still either take 20 or 2 years, but in the 2 year case you'd need to send a warp ship back just to transmit the data. That's going to suck no matter what you do, unless subspace communication turns out to be a real thing.
Most likely 20 years, either way it would be faster (and cheaper) if the ship simply returns after the mission ended, instead of sending small "bottles" with messages.
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
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Collin Jasnoch wrote:
Using working theories that it exists allow advancements that are applicable to other fields of research and also allow the targeted field to continue to progress
But it's Not Real. The definition of "exotic matter is "We don't know what it is, what its properties are, or what can be done with it -- but we invented the idea of it, so we'll decide what magic it can do". They can postulate any damned thing they like about such a magical substance. My theory is that exotic matter doesn't possess the properties needed to form a warp field, but it does possess properties that randomly and sporadically make pieces of coffee machines and single socks disappear. And that theory is far more credible as the warp-field theory, because pieces of coffee machines and single socks do disappear -- i.e there is actual empirical evidence to support it! (I'm gonna be RICH! Give me the grant money!) Physics is not "Oh, maybe one day we'll find a magical substance that will let us do miraculous things", it's "This is what we've got; what can we do with it?"
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
You do not find the concept of a Warp Field Interfermeter intriguing?
Are you kidding? There's nothing I'd like more than to see starships built -- but there are few things I like less than self-serving bullsh1t, and self-serving bullsh1t is all these "theories" are.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark Wallace wrote:
But it's Not Real.
Like the theory of the relativity, which wasn't confirmated several years after postulated, like the metamaterials that were predicted by "bending" the physics but wasn't produced until recently, like making things invisible which was theorized first and executed until not so long ago.
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
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harold aptroot wrote:
Sending a signal back (and without doing that, what's the point?) will still either take 20 or 2 years, but in the 2 year case you'd need to send a warp ship back just to transmit the data. That's going to suck no matter what you do, unless subspace communication turns out to be a real thing.
Most likely 20 years, either way it would be faster (and cheaper) if the ship simply returns after the mission ended, instead of sending small "bottles" with messages.
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
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Why do I picture the movie spaceballs with the warp speed. :)
Scissors cuts paper, paper covers rock, rock crushes lizard, lizard poisons Spock, Spock smashes scissors, scissors decapitates lizard, lizard eats paper, paper disproves Spock, Spock vaporizes rock, and as it always has, rock crushes scissors. :)
That's ludicrous! ;P
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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Mark Wallace wrote:
But it's Not Real.
Like the theory of the relativity, which wasn't confirmated several years after postulated, like the metamaterials that were predicted by "bending" the physics but wasn't produced until recently, like making things invisible which was theorized first and executed until not so long ago.
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
Don't forget imaginary numbers, which now have very real applications in engineering.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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NASA starts development of real life star trek warp drive[^] Actually I Do have the power captain </ScottishAccent>
Quote:
The Eagleworks team has discovered that the energy requirements are much lower than previously thought. If they optimize the warp bubble thickness and "oscillate its intensity to reduce the stiffness of space time," they would be able to reduce the amount of fuel to manageable amount: instead of a Jupiter-sized ball of exotic matter, you will only need 500 kilograms to "send a 10-meter bubble (32.8 feet) at an effective velocity of 10c."
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
"oscillate its intensity to reduce the stiffness of space time...." Holy cow, it's an oscillation overthurster! Isn't that exactly how it was explained in the movie? Could this theoretically go through solid matter in addition to "moving" through space? Not that I would recommend it, dealing with the Red Lectroids was bad enough the first time.
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Mark Wallace wrote:
But it's Not Real.
Like the theory of the relativity, which wasn't confirmated several years after postulated, like the metamaterials that were predicted by "bending" the physics but wasn't produced until recently, like making things invisible which was theorized first and executed until not so long ago.
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
Not at all. Basing theories on observations, calculations, and intelligent reasoning, as did Einstein and the rest, is a far cry from saying "I wish there were a magic material that we could use to create a construct that we can't even postulate mathematically unless we factor in the properties of the magic material whose properties we can just make up as we go along!" BS is not restricted to marketers, managers, and bad developers; bad physicists are full of it, too.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Mark Wallace wrote:
They can postulate any damned thing they like about such a magical substance.
Right, and what is postulated is the point. They use those positions to create useful research and in many cases technology.
Mark Wallace wrote:
My theory is that exotic matter doesn't possess the properties needed to form a warp field, but it does possess properties that randomly and sporadically make pieces of coffee machines and single socks disappear.
Well if you have some studies on this happening and you see this being useful to the world by all means why not propose something. I will be honest on this one though.... Not seeing the usefulness. While I have had single socks disappear my theory on that is quite solid. They get stock on the out of season (or fashion) clothes and boxed up. :)
Mark Wallace wrote:
Physics is not "Oh, maybe one day we'll find a magical substance that will let us do miraculous things", it's "This is what we've got; what can we do with it?"
While it is not about magical substances it is about gaining an understanding of substances we do not understand. To quote Galileo: Measure what is measurable and make measurable what is not so. What we call magic one day is known to be truth the next.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
While it is not about magical substances it is about gaining an understanding of substances we do not understand.
Not understand in what way? - If it's atomic, where does it fit in the periodic table? - If it's molecular, what atoms is it composed of, and where do these miraculous "powers" come from, that allow it to be used to build warp fields? And if they're talking about matter composed of only one type of as-yet-undiscovered sub-atomic particle, then they're out of their tiny minds. And what "energy"/"powers" are they that this substance provides/generates? Electromagnetic fields? Gravitational forces? Hulk-inducing gamma rays? Chemical something-or-other? They're magic rocks. It's f***ing shameful that such utter cr@p should get so much attention, when there are genuine physicists out there doing incredible work and being completely ignored. Here's some real Physics: Empty vessels make most noise.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Collin Jasnoch wrote:
While it is not about magical substances it is about gaining an understanding of substances we do not understand.
Not understand in what way? - If it's atomic, where does it fit in the periodic table? - If it's molecular, what atoms is it composed of, and where do these miraculous "powers" come from, that allow it to be used to build warp fields? And if they're talking about matter composed of only one type of as-yet-undiscovered sub-atomic particle, then they're out of their tiny minds. And what "energy"/"powers" are they that this substance provides/generates? Electromagnetic fields? Gravitational forces? Hulk-inducing gamma rays? Chemical something-or-other? They're magic rocks. It's f***ing shameful that such utter cr@p should get so much attention, when there are genuine physicists out there doing incredible work and being completely ignored. Here's some real Physics: Empty vessels make most noise.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Good questions. You should really read up on them as I am not the one to explain it. Nor is this the proper forum. But I doubt in your reading you will ever see anything refer to it as magical :)
Mark Wallace wrote:
It's f***ing shameful that such utter cr@p should get so much attention
Whats a shame is someone has such hostility towards theoretical physics. Usually such hostility is reserved for the zealots pushing an idea, not discouraging one. :rolleyes: Me thinkith you protestith too much....
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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While you have valid points it seems you missed the point of the "article". First off generating 500Kg is actually realistic... Generating the amount of the size of Jupiter not so much. While my neighbor Bob will not be able to fly to Alpha Centari in the near future I think Bob is OK with that. I think Bob would rather NASA go there first. Second, the analogy does fail to mention those details but it is an analogy in an "article". Why do I keep quoting "article". Cause it is not intended to talk about the details. Its not a white paper or journal entry. If something like this you do not find exciting as you need solid experiment descriptions etc. I get that. But I think more a long the lines of what was said here:
Quote:
It may sound like a small thing now, but the implications of the research huge. In his own words: Although this is just a tiny instance of the phenomena, it will be existence proof for the idea of perturbing space time-a "Chicago pile" moment, as it were. Recall that December of 1942 saw the first demonstration of a controlled nuclear reaction that generated a whopping half watt. This existence proof was followed by the activation of a ~ four megawatt reactor in November of 1943. Existence proof for the practical application of a scientific idea can be a tipping point for technology development.
While we are not leaving for the stars tomorrow such research opens the door for the possibility. I personally find that quite intriguing enough to look more into it.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
First off generating 500Kg is actually realistic
I don't think it is. Far as I can tell current production is at the molecule level. Thus I expect that the cost of creating that much is astronomical. And setting up the system to do so would cost even more. And keep in mind that that a lot more than that is needed for the 2 year trip. But I would like to see a reference that does predict the cost of creating say a milligram or kilogram. Even better if it discussed time lines and storage.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
Second, the analogy does fail to mention those details but it is an analogy
The analogy is an attempt to justify how simplistic the journey is while completely ignoring the specific points that make the journey difficult in the first place.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
If something like this you do not find exciting as you need solid experiment descriptions etc
I get excited about realistic possibilities. Ones that completely ignore economics and engineering don't.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
But I think more a long the lines of what was said here:
People that hold forth that all problems are solvable by technology often bring up historical successes but completely ignore the vast number of failures.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
While we are not leaving for the stars tomorrow such research opens the door for the possibility
This is far from the first possible way to that has been proposed to go to the stars. However before anyone does make a trip it will need to be economically feasible and possible from the engineering standpoint as well. I wouldn't hold my breadth that this specific avenue will lead to that.
