Warp Drives Feasible in our life-time
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Collin Jasnoch wrote:
Whats a shame is someone has such hostility towards theoretical physics.
I majored in Physics, and I've done a shipload of science writing (for real science projects) since. This isn't science. It's "If we find a unicorn, we can ask it to make a magical bubble that will carry us to Neverland". At best, it's a masturbatory chain of "Oh, if a substance with these powers can exist, then we'll be able to to this with it -- and if we can do this with it, then we should be able to do that with it -- and if we can do that with it, we should be able to... etc.", with every step taking us further and further away from reality, and all based on a single premise that hasn't even come close to being proven. The thing is that substances that contain magical powers don't exist (I know that the word "magic" is never used -- do you think they want to give the game away?), which is why writers have to invent stuff like dilithium crystals, i.e. magic rocks, to power starships. Next, they'll be saying that you can power starships with a few grams of gold formed into a toroid.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Ahhh.. You do realize they used a generic term "Exotic Material" which is like saying "rare" material. Honestly how are you so certain that it does not exist? Have you read all of the references? In some cases when talking about it ("exotic material"), the scientists are referring to anti-matter... Which does exist and (by creating it).
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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This is even more a fantasy than I originally supposed. Per the article time on the vessel remains relativistic. Thus the 2 years one way mentioned in the article repesents 20 years on board the ship. Or 40 years for a round trip voyage. So 40 years of food, 40 years of water, 40 years of very efficient waste disposal, 40 years of mechanical maintenance. And enough exotic fuel to push it there and back - and I suggest you might want to check the cost of that. http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-most-expensive-substance-in-the-world.htm[^] ... and 40 years of dealing with various human psychology. There are probably people who are willing to volunteer for such a journey but there are far fewer capable of doing it with a small group. Note that the same applies to a unmanned probe except that the chance for self repairs are less. And what about rocks along the way? Might seem trivial but for a vessel traveling at 10c the occupants will NOT be able to use any known detection methodologies. So either they must shield or absorb all collisions - all VERY high kinetic collisions. What technology is going to do that?
jschell wrote:
Per the article time on the vessel remains relativistic.
Thus the 2 years one way mentioned in the article repesents 20 years on board the ship.Per the article:
...we would be able to create an engine that will get us to Alpha Centauri "in two weeks as measured by clocks here on Earth." The time will be the same in the spaceship and on Earth, he claims, and there will not be "tidal forces inside the bubble, no undue issues, and the proper acceleration is zero. When you turn the field on, everybody doesn't go slamming against the bulkhead, which would be a very short and sad trip."
You fail at reading comprehension.
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jschell wrote:
I wouldn't hold my breadth that this specific avenue will lead to that.
Considering the article said "In our life-time" I would agree... Don't hold your breath. Jeesh.. You sure are a half empty dude. Lets just agree it is good you are not on or in charge of any such program. Yee have little faith in grand ideas or progression it seems.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
You sure are a half empty dude. Lets just agree it is good you are not on or in charge of any such program
Just to be clear - I was commenting on the nature of the 'gee whiz' attitude in the article and not on the scientific benefit of the research (from which the article was postulating.) But based on your comment I am glad you are not - because as I showed the cost of what the article presented is so astronomical to be nothing but fantasy.
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Collin Jasnoch wrote:
You sure are a half empty dude. Lets just agree it is good you are not on or in charge of any such program
Just to be clear - I was commenting on the nature of the 'gee whiz' attitude in the article and not on the scientific benefit of the research (from which the article was postulating.) But based on your comment I am glad you are not - because as I showed the cost of what the article presented is so astronomical to be nothing but fantasy.
jschell wrote:
because as I showed the cost of what the article presented is so astronomical to be nothing but fantasy.
Today... And that is why we continue to research.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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jschell wrote:
What exactly do you think that they do on the space station to provide atmosphere?
They have to store it somewhere. It's not like a space station has a hose running down to a suitable level of the atmosphere to pull in air, nor do they get resupplied daily. And, according to this[^] most of the oxygen is made from water, which incidentally they will already need large amounts of.
jschell wrote:
Ok. So how many pounds of preserved food and water do you need for a single person for a 4 year trip? Presumably you do plan for them to come back?
I'm sure an organization like NASA has either already figured it out, or will before such a trip would be made made (don't forget, they have been investigating the possibility of a manned mission to Mars, the conditions wouldn't be that different in this regard). Also, most things beyond food can be recycled (including urine into water).
jschell wrote:
Why 40 you ask? Because even though on earth the voyage takes 2 years the time in the vehicle, per the article, still takes 20 years. One way.
From the article:
Quote:
The time will be the same in the spaceship and on Earth
It in fact states that it will take the same time to the people on the ship (as it should, their velocity is 0). Still only 4 years (+ time spent at destination).
jschell wrote:
Now once you have all of the computed how much more fuel does it take to move all of that?
If they stay in orbit? About 1000 kg of exotic matter for a round trip, and a small amount of fuel to maintain orbit. It may not be stated in this article, but massive amounts of energy are only needed to create the bubble, not to maintain it (energy may be necessary to break or leave the bubble though). If they land, add enough to do something like what we used on the moon. It'll need more fuel to make up for stronger gravity, but not everything has to be brought back.
jschell wrote:
But in the real world it costs real money. Do you know how expensive exotic matter is? Check out
lewax00 wrote:
I'm sure an organization like NASA has either already figured it out
The NASA Mars plan is based on 5 cargo only trips before the first manned vehicle is sent.
lewax00 wrote:
but I didn't say it was happening tomorrow
Or the day after either.
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jschell wrote:
Per the article time on the vessel remains relativistic.
Thus the 2 years one way mentioned in the article repesents 20 years on board the ship.Per the article:
...we would be able to create an engine that will get us to Alpha Centauri "in two weeks as measured by clocks here on Earth." The time will be the same in the spaceship and on Earth, he claims, and there will not be "tidal forces inside the bubble, no undue issues, and the proper acceleration is zero. When you turn the field on, everybody doesn't go slamming against the bulkhead, which would be a very short and sad trip."
You fail at reading comprehension.
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So now here you go down a tangent arguing against a hypothetical trip regarding a hypothetical warp drive (which the post is about... not the trip). Now thats some classy trolling :rolleyes:
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
So now here you go down a tangent arguing against a hypothetical trip regarding a hypothetical warp drive (which the post is about... not the trip).
Seems to me that most of the article is devoted specifically to how the drive could be used, and specifically mentions places that one might go to with it. Versus for example discussing the raminfications of the science itself.
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I know, i know, but the only way to prove them valid or not is by experimentation or direct observation, and i believe there have been far more theories that have proven invalid over time than the ones that have proved valid.
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
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Collin Jasnoch wrote:
So now here you go down a tangent arguing against a hypothetical trip regarding a hypothetical warp drive (which the post is about... not the trip).
Seems to me that most of the article is devoted specifically to how the drive could be used, and specifically mentions places that one might go to with it. Versus for example discussing the raminfications of the science itself.
Right. And it also talks about in our life time. Not tomorrow or the next day. Power generation is a huge field into itself. And on top of that generating anti-matter is a whole different field. It would not make sense to diverge into said topics with out creating a journal itself. It was a simple article about some research done and went into its possible application. The main idea is simple. We used to think warp travel would require 1000 Earths of Anti-matter. Now they found a way to shrink that down to 500Kg. That is astonishing!
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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While I understand that people make mistakes, a mistake on your reading comprehension self-test still results in an F mark. It sent you on a tirade about the logical ramifications of what would happen, but at least half of your rant was invalidated by an incorrect assumption. Thus, at best you get a 50%, resulting in an F mark for you. Some of your other points are good, but also make other false assumptions. For example, you seem to make the assumption that the costs of making 500Kg of exotic materials would be at the current market costs of producing the materials. If we needed that much material, rather than the microscopic amounts we need for laboratory uses, we would find cheaper ways to make the materials. We cannot know what the final costs will be, but as your article points out, the costs for producing antimatter have already dropped 3 orders of magnitude in a decade.
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harold aptroot wrote:
While cheaper than a full ship with live support and such, they can't be cheap. And you'd have a limited number of them - producing more of them (forcing you to take a whole warp drive factory with you) does not seem realistic (yes I really just used that word) to me.
Not sure about that. Its not like the "drone" needs warp capability actually. Just the launcher does. The only thing that need be launched is the message itself. We tend to think "message in a bottle" and in this case it seems the bottle is the warp bubble. The message is the pure data or communication. For example a RF transmission. Once the warp bubble reaches its destination the RF signal propagates as it would have if there was no warp bubble, but it is then at its destination so only interpretation is left.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
Hmm. I always assumed you needed something inside the warp bubble to maintain the bubble, but like I said, that's an assumption. Is there something in the research that indicates a bubble is persistent and can be created at an arbitrary location, rather than around the "warp drive"? You may still want a warp drive with navigation capabilities so that it can correct itself if something gets in the way or it misses the catcher. I do wonder about your sending an RF signal idea though. Are you assuming the RF signal will just bounce around inside the bubble? Or do you need a 2-light-year long bubble to keep up with the RF signal's natural propagation inside the bubble? I really want to know what happens when something touches the edge of the bubble....
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Hmm. I always assumed you needed something inside the warp bubble to maintain the bubble, but like I said, that's an assumption. Is there something in the research that indicates a bubble is persistent and can be created at an arbitrary location, rather than around the "warp drive"? You may still want a warp drive with navigation capabilities so that it can correct itself if something gets in the way or it misses the catcher. I do wonder about your sending an RF signal idea though. Are you assuming the RF signal will just bounce around inside the bubble? Or do you need a 2-light-year long bubble to keep up with the RF signal's natural propagation inside the bubble? I really want to know what happens when something touches the edge of the bubble....
Considering nothing on earth yet has the capability of actually making the warp bubble there is no telling whether the bubble will have to be maintained for an internal source or not. It is definitely a good point. My point was more that the same technology would likely create a path of "messaging" technology. It would have its basis in the core of warp drives, but could end up significantly different.
erzengel.des.lichtes wrote:
I do wonder about your sending an RF signal idea though. Are you assuming the RF signal will just bounce around inside the bubble? Or do you need a 2-light-year long bubble to keep up with the RF signal's natural propagation inside the bubble?
Good question. I think your ideas there are good potential answers. Could be other ways as well. Something along with string theory comes to mind where the signal would not actually be "bouncing" as much as it would be propagating through an endless bubble with in the tiny traveling bubble.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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lewax00 wrote:
I'm sure an organization like NASA has either already figured it out
The NASA Mars plan is based on 5 cargo only trips before the first manned vehicle is sent.
lewax00 wrote:
but I didn't say it was happening tomorrow
Or the day after either.
jschell wrote:
The NASA Mars plan is based on 5 cargo only trips before the first manned vehicle is sent.
So that somehow changes their supply calculations? Just because they aren't sending it all at once doesn't change how much food the people will need :doh:
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Considering nothing on earth yet has the capability of actually making the warp bubble there is no telling whether the bubble will have to be maintained for an internal source or not. It is definitely a good point. My point was more that the same technology would likely create a path of "messaging" technology. It would have its basis in the core of warp drives, but could end up significantly different.
erzengel.des.lichtes wrote:
I do wonder about your sending an RF signal idea though. Are you assuming the RF signal will just bounce around inside the bubble? Or do you need a 2-light-year long bubble to keep up with the RF signal's natural propagation inside the bubble?
Good question. I think your ideas there are good potential answers. Could be other ways as well. Something along with string theory comes to mind where the signal would not actually be "bouncing" as much as it would be propagating through an endless bubble with in the tiny traveling bubble.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
Personally I'm hoping we can overcome Heisenberg uncertainty so we can convert our Quantum Encryption devices into Quantum Communication devices...
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jschell wrote:
because as I showed the cost of what the article presented is so astronomical to be nothing but fantasy.
Today... And that is why we continue to research.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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jschell wrote:
The NASA Mars plan is based on 5 cargo only trips before the first manned vehicle is sent.
So that somehow changes their supply calculations? Just because they aren't sending it all at once doesn't change how much food the people will need :doh:
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While I understand that people make mistakes, a mistake on your reading comprehension self-test still results in an F mark. It sent you on a tirade about the logical ramifications of what would happen, but at least half of your rant was invalidated by an incorrect assumption. Thus, at best you get a 50%, resulting in an F mark for you. Some of your other points are good, but also make other false assumptions. For example, you seem to make the assumption that the costs of making 500Kg of exotic materials would be at the current market costs of producing the materials. If we needed that much material, rather than the microscopic amounts we need for laboratory uses, we would find cheaper ways to make the materials. We cannot know what the final costs will be, but as your article points out, the costs for producing antimatter have already dropped 3 orders of magnitude in a decade.
erzengel.des.lichtes wrote:
We cannot know what the final costs will be, but as your article points out, the costs for producing antimatter have already dropped 3 orders of magnitude in a decade.
How many orders of magnitude must it drop before it costs only the same amount as all of the Moon missions combined (and in 2012 dollars)?
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Collin Jasnoch wrote:
Today... And that is why we continue to research.
Today...based on the historical trends for exotic matter the cost will continue to be astronomical.
A trend that does not go back very far. Furthermore, technology trends of the last decade clearly show that this could change. In fact, with recent technology we can actually "find" it. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12158718[^] With the right technology we could accumulate the natural occurrence of it. Its really just a matter of the right minds on the right projects and the "price" will plummet due to better understanding of production or of gathering.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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lewax00 wrote:
Just because they aren't sending it all at once doesn't change how much food the people will need
It does however mean that 5 ships will be needed - so in terms of this discussion 5 times the amount of exotic matter.
That's only if they send it separately (they'd need at least 2 year's supplies on their ship), that this ship wouldn't be bigger, and assuming all of it has to come back. Only one ship really has to come back (i.e. the one with the people, if a manned mission), any others can be one-way trips. Even 5 ships total is 1000 (one round trip) + 2000 (four one way trips) = 3000, only 3 times what a round trip would take to begin with.
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Right. And it also talks about in our life time. Not tomorrow or the next day. Power generation is a huge field into itself. And on top of that generating anti-matter is a whole different field. It would not make sense to diverge into said topics with out creating a journal itself. It was a simple article about some research done and went into its possible application. The main idea is simple. We used to think warp travel would require 1000 Earths of Anti-matter. Now they found a way to shrink that down to 500Kg. That is astonishing!
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
And it also talks about in our life time
There is no evidence that the cost will become feasible in the next 50 years.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
Power generation is a huge field into itself. And on top of that generating anti-matter is a whole different field. It would not make sense to diverge into said topics with out creating a journal itself.
And so what does that have to do with the fact that the article was in fact mostly about making trips to distant locations?
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
It was a simple article about some research done and went into its possible application.
No it was an article mostly about one application. It is quite possible and perhaps even feasible, at least if the cost drops many orders of magnitudes, that other applications would exist.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
Now they found a way to shrink that down to 500Kg. That is astonishing!
Perhaps. But unless they can get it down to about one molecule then, based on current evidence, it doesn't mean much.