The Language/Coding proposition
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wizardzz wrote:
Isn't there some sort of bias here, based on language then, which is supposed to be mutually exclusive?
Well, we can only make guesses based on available data. If a beautiful woman hides her face with a veil, then she shouldn't complain when she's not categorized as beautiful. [my analogies are usually rather horrible, so don't be surprised]
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
Your analogy is accurate and does admit to a sort of bias via presentation. I guess what I was saying is, you have 2 major traits- language + programming. So how exactly do you measure programming skill on the site, when it's dependent on language? Also, another a concern is that those with the time to contribute to articles and answers might not hold jobs with major time sensitivities. So, perhaps those that contribute a bunch and present outward skill, are just those that have the time and motivation.
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Ignore previous reply. Just saw on your profile that you are in Boston now. :doh:
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
I was in Boston even when I worked at MS. This office[^].
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Your analogy is accurate and does admit to a sort of bias via presentation. I guess what I was saying is, you have 2 major traits- language + programming. So how exactly do you measure programming skill on the site, when it's dependent on language? Also, another a concern is that those with the time to contribute to articles and answers might not hold jobs with major time sensitivities. So, perhaps those that contribute a bunch and present outward skill, are just those that have the time and motivation.
wizardzz wrote:
Also, another a concern is that those with the time to contribute to articles and answers might not hold jobs with major time sensitivities. So, perhaps those that contribute a bunch and present outward skill, are just those that have the time and motivation.
Quite true, I am very often surprised by the amounts of time some of the top contributors spend on the tech forums here. I assume most of them have day-jobs with lots of free-time/flexibility. And as for judging someone’s technical skills when he/she has a language limitation, it can be fairly tricky. Sometimes a weaker candidate can seem more skilled than a stronger candidate if the weaker guy can present his information better.
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
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I was in Boston even when I worked at MS. This office[^].
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I stumbled upon this thread in the Suggestions forum : http://www.codeproject.com/Messages/4387427/Insults-are-not-welcome.aspx[^] And that got me thinking about how language ability and coding skills are the 2 major factors that affect how people get treated online. Well, there’s no score/ranking here really but I’ve formulated this theory on what makes someone popular in a technical/geek forum (like CodeProject, StackOverflow, or say Reddit). In my observations, it seems to be directly related to a combination of your language ability (not just grammar, but the ability to use humor and sarcasm to good effect) and your technological competency. Here’s a venn-diagram of sorts that tries to explain this better: http://i.imgur.com/fHExJ.png[^] 2 : represents people who have great language/humor/verbosity. 3: represents technology gurus with extreme coding skills. 4: represents the intersection of 2 and 3. 1: represents those with neither language skills or technical ability. Now, people in 2 and 3 (but not in 4) usually get along okay. Here on CP we have a fair number of category-2 people who can write well, express complex ideas succinctly, and possess incredible senses of humor, but who are very ordinary programmers. They are popular. We also have a number of category-3 people, mostly from non-native (English) countries who are very good at coding/technology and who answer a lot of Q-A threads. They are fairly popular too despite the fact that many of them write with the verbosity/grammar of a 6 year old. Then we have the rock-stars like Christian and Pete who are category-4, that most elite of forum classifications. These folks are revered and held in the absolute highest esteem. So, what does this leave us with? Well folks who can’t code, and whose English expressing abilities are severely lacking. While it sounds unfair, it’s best if these people try and work on at least one of these skills before venturing out to these sites, unless they possess really thick skins and are prepared to learn and improve amidst a showering of insults and abuses. Opinions welcome...
Regards, Nish
My technology blog:
I don't think these are the only factors, there are bone-idle people out there too, and those that simply shouldn't be programming (lets call it lackaprogrammability). On my degree course in the UK we had two people come out with diplomas (rather than the MSc they started). One, a lackaprogrammabilityista must have submitted a good 90% of the "hard subject" coursework consisting of a patchwork composite of various bits'o'help he garnered from students. The other (bone-idle) pretty much flirted her way into getting other people into just doing her work for her. If my experience in the Middle East is anything to go by there is a much higher proportion people in these categories. The educational system over there exacerbates the problem: questions are dumbed down; exam results are at the discretion of the examiner (a common one was for a student to come to me with a poor grade in their first exam, and try and get me to "cancel it" if they showed improvement in second - unthinkable in the UK) and as the examiner is assessed on grades, they are lenient; the dissertations are designed to look impressive but be facile (e.g. tying together APIs for more complicated tasks to form an impressive whole tied together with relatively simple code) and suffer from many of the same problems as the exams. Net result: many students graduating with degrees who wouldn't be able to pass the entry exams for a UK undergrad degree. That said, there were some little gems in the pack too, just enough to make the process worthwhile. The real problem is sifting between the bone-idle/lackaprogrammability people (though I am inclined to help the latter) and those who are having genuine problems with their English.
Sort of a cross between Lawrence of Arabia and Dilbert.[^]
-Or-
A Dead ringer for Kate Winslett[^] -
I stumbled upon this thread in the Suggestions forum : http://www.codeproject.com/Messages/4387427/Insults-are-not-welcome.aspx[^] And that got me thinking about how language ability and coding skills are the 2 major factors that affect how people get treated online. Well, there’s no score/ranking here really but I’ve formulated this theory on what makes someone popular in a technical/geek forum (like CodeProject, StackOverflow, or say Reddit). In my observations, it seems to be directly related to a combination of your language ability (not just grammar, but the ability to use humor and sarcasm to good effect) and your technological competency. Here’s a venn-diagram of sorts that tries to explain this better: http://i.imgur.com/fHExJ.png[^] 2 : represents people who have great language/humor/verbosity. 3: represents technology gurus with extreme coding skills. 4: represents the intersection of 2 and 3. 1: represents those with neither language skills or technical ability. Now, people in 2 and 3 (but not in 4) usually get along okay. Here on CP we have a fair number of category-2 people who can write well, express complex ideas succinctly, and possess incredible senses of humor, but who are very ordinary programmers. They are popular. We also have a number of category-3 people, mostly from non-native (English) countries who are very good at coding/technology and who answer a lot of Q-A threads. They are fairly popular too despite the fact that many of them write with the verbosity/grammar of a 6 year old. Then we have the rock-stars like Christian and Pete who are category-4, that most elite of forum classifications. These folks are revered and held in the absolute highest esteem. So, what does this leave us with? Well folks who can’t code, and whose English expressing abilities are severely lacking. While it sounds unfair, it’s best if these people try and work on at least one of these skills before venturing out to these sites, unless they possess really thick skins and are prepared to learn and improve amidst a showering of insults and abuses. Opinions welcome...
Regards, Nish
My technology blog:
I didn't see a discussion of the correlation between expressive skills (writing) and coding skills. At the architectural/structural level, the ability to organize a paragraph (in any language) probably corresponds with the ability to organize your code. The ability to understand your subject matter clearly while writing probably correlates with the ability to deeply understand requirements. And I believe that caring about details while writing in natural language probably correlates to caring about details while writing code.
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
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I didn't see a discussion of the correlation between expressive skills (writing) and coding skills. At the architectural/structural level, the ability to organize a paragraph (in any language) probably corresponds with the ability to organize your code. The ability to understand your subject matter clearly while writing probably correlates with the ability to deeply understand requirements. And I believe that caring about details while writing in natural language probably correlates to caring about details while writing code.
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
Tom Clement wrote:
At the architectural/structural level, the ability to organize a paragraph (in any language) probably corresponds with the ability to organize your code.
I agree completely. That said, it's significantly more difficult for non-native speakers to master the English language with all its little quirks (than for native speakers).
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
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I don't think these are the only factors, there are bone-idle people out there too, and those that simply shouldn't be programming (lets call it lackaprogrammability). On my degree course in the UK we had two people come out with diplomas (rather than the MSc they started). One, a lackaprogrammabilityista must have submitted a good 90% of the "hard subject" coursework consisting of a patchwork composite of various bits'o'help he garnered from students. The other (bone-idle) pretty much flirted her way into getting other people into just doing her work for her. If my experience in the Middle East is anything to go by there is a much higher proportion people in these categories. The educational system over there exacerbates the problem: questions are dumbed down; exam results are at the discretion of the examiner (a common one was for a student to come to me with a poor grade in their first exam, and try and get me to "cancel it" if they showed improvement in second - unthinkable in the UK) and as the examiner is assessed on grades, they are lenient; the dissertations are designed to look impressive but be facile (e.g. tying together APIs for more complicated tasks to form an impressive whole tied together with relatively simple code) and suffer from many of the same problems as the exams. Net result: many students graduating with degrees who wouldn't be able to pass the entry exams for a UK undergrad degree. That said, there were some little gems in the pack too, just enough to make the process worthwhile. The real problem is sifting between the bone-idle/lackaprogrammability people (though I am inclined to help the latter) and those who are having genuine problems with their English.
Sort of a cross between Lawrence of Arabia and Dilbert.[^]
-Or-
A Dead ringer for Kate Winslett[^]Keith Barrow wrote:
That said, there were some little gems in the pack too, just enough to make the process worthwhile.
And you gotta appreciate them more for fighting the system and still coming out on top! :-)
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
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Tom Clement wrote:
At the architectural/structural level, the ability to organize a paragraph (in any language) probably corresponds with the ability to organize your code.
I agree completely. That said, it's significantly more difficult for non-native speakers to master the English language with all its little quirks (than for native speakers).
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
I'm completely with you here. I think that as an English language site, we have to be careful not to confuse difficulty with English with an inability to pay attention to details or to organize thoughts. It's a good gedankenexperiment to imagine how helpless we'd be (well, I'd be) if the site were a Vietnamese one.
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
-
I stumbled upon this thread in the Suggestions forum : http://www.codeproject.com/Messages/4387427/Insults-are-not-welcome.aspx[^] And that got me thinking about how language ability and coding skills are the 2 major factors that affect how people get treated online. Well, there’s no score/ranking here really but I’ve formulated this theory on what makes someone popular in a technical/geek forum (like CodeProject, StackOverflow, or say Reddit). In my observations, it seems to be directly related to a combination of your language ability (not just grammar, but the ability to use humor and sarcasm to good effect) and your technological competency. Here’s a venn-diagram of sorts that tries to explain this better: http://i.imgur.com/fHExJ.png[^] 2 : represents people who have great language/humor/verbosity. 3: represents technology gurus with extreme coding skills. 4: represents the intersection of 2 and 3. 1: represents those with neither language skills or technical ability. Now, people in 2 and 3 (but not in 4) usually get along okay. Here on CP we have a fair number of category-2 people who can write well, express complex ideas succinctly, and possess incredible senses of humor, but who are very ordinary programmers. They are popular. We also have a number of category-3 people, mostly from non-native (English) countries who are very good at coding/technology and who answer a lot of Q-A threads. They are fairly popular too despite the fact that many of them write with the verbosity/grammar of a 6 year old. Then we have the rock-stars like Christian and Pete who are category-4, that most elite of forum classifications. These folks are revered and held in the absolute highest esteem. So, what does this leave us with? Well folks who can’t code, and whose English expressing abilities are severely lacking. While it sounds unfair, it’s best if these people try and work on at least one of these skills before venturing out to these sites, unless they possess really thick skins and are prepared to learn and improve amidst a showering of insults and abuses. Opinions welcome...
Regards, Nish
My technology blog:
What about those of us with exceptional coding skills and vivid sense of humor, who, because our very low self-esteem, are too shy to express all these talents?
There is only one Vera Farmiga and Salma Hayek is her prophet! Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
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SAP? Crystal Reports!!!???? Guys, bring the torches and the pitch-forks, tar and feathers too, we have work to do!
There is only one Vera Farmiga and Salma Hayek is her prophet! Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
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What about those of us with exceptional coding skills and vivid sense of humor, who, because our very low self-esteem, are too shy to express all these talents?
There is only one Vera Farmiga and Salma Hayek is her prophet! Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
Deyan Georgiev wrote:
What about those of us with exceptional coding skills and vivid sense of humor, who, because our very low self-esteem, are too shy to express all these talents?
Ah, a member of Team Modesty! :rolleyes:
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
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SAP? Crystal Reports!!!???? Guys, bring the torches and the pitch-forks, tar and feathers too, we have work to do!
There is only one Vera Farmiga and Salma Hayek is her prophet! Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
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Deyan Georgiev wrote:
What about those of us with exceptional coding skills and vivid sense of humor, who, because our very low self-esteem, are too shy to express all these talents?
Ah, a member of Team Modesty! :rolleyes:
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
Been extremely humble is my only shortcoming. :-D
There is only one Vera Farmiga and Salma Hayek is her prophet! Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
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Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
Today I learned SAP maintains Crystal Reports now :)
Now when you know, what you are going to do about it? Probably some small “accident” with the Cristal Reports’ lab?:suss:
There is only one Vera Farmiga and Salma Hayek is her prophet! Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
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Been extremely humble is my only shortcoming. :-D
There is only one Vera Farmiga and Salma Hayek is her prophet! Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
At least you are working on it :)
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At least you are working on it :)
5! :laugh:
There is only one Vera Farmiga and Salma Hayek is her prophet! Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
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What about sex? That's not an offer! ;) Just pointing out that my sex is probably the most memorable thing about me here and it colours how everyone treats me. I suppose the question of how people are treated is very complex. In general I think we should try not to pick on people who are trying, whatever their skills, and those who aren't trying will soon leave anyway. :)
"State acheived after eating too many chocolate-covered coconut bars - bountiful" Chris C-B
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What about sex? That's not an offer! ;) Just pointing out that my sex is probably the most memorable thing about me here and it colours how everyone treats me. I suppose the question of how people are treated is very complex. In general I think we should try not to pick on people who are trying, whatever their skills, and those who aren't trying will soon leave anyway. :)
"State acheived after eating too many chocolate-covered coconut bars - bountiful" Chris C-B
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I always have thought of you as a giant chocolate bar! you just destroyed the magic :((
I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p)
Sentenryu wrote:
I always have thought of you as with a giant chocolate bar!
... would be more accurate! ;)
"State acheived after eating too many chocolate-covered coconut bars - bountiful" Chris C-B
