Trolling 101
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Here is a troll article[^] if I've ever read one. Apparently people frustrated with the ridiculous change of pace in our industry need to 'grow up'. Ken thinks that developers are upset because they've been in a coma for 10 years.
Only a developer who's been in a coma for the past ten years could wake up and be shocked by what he's seeing.
Then I read his credentials and noticed that he's a system administrator which means, of course, that he uses UIs but he doesn't create them. It looks to me that his learning is limited to learning how to use the new UI - and that is quite a bit different than learning how to create a new UI. Towards the end he writes:
I'm just saying that the UNIX command line hasn't changed and isn't likely to, so for those who like a static environment, that's one alternative--but not a negative one.
And you'll note in his credentials:
15 years of experience with Mac, Linux, UNIX
Oh, okay....I think I see how this works now. Spend your time working in a back room using UIs that don't change instead of developing UIs that change on a weekly basis and then rag on UI developers when they get a bit testy. :laugh:
I've got a better title for an article to answer that stupid article. (I wasted 10 minutes reading that thing yesterday). "You need to grow up and stop chasing every fad that comes down the pike". Whoever wrote that article doesn't have the foggiest idea what a developer does nor what we have to put up with. GUI presentations are just the most visible part of the whole thing. Of course I'm preaching to the choir here. A "troll" is a good description for that article. He's wrong on so many levels that I was going to respond but I decided recently that ZDNet is becoming pretty ridiculous as a forum for pointless arguments. -CB
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+1
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Julien Villers wrote:
You need to grow up and stop slinging tips on unsuspecting forum members
Sounds like you are complaining to me. Are you one of those cranky developers I've been reading about on ZDNet? :laugh:
Seems like everybody on ZDNet is cranky. I've been spending a lot less time reading up there: the discussions that result usually degenerate into name-calling sessions. It's pretty ridiculous. OTOH, around here everybody (even if they differ in some opinion) seems to be pretty civil about it. Maybe that's because most of us here are really professionals? -CB
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It's not a trollpiece, but a sysop that's venting. You give 'em a donut/coffee and all is well. Every new version of Windows and Office, we get the verdicts of the technically and logically challenged. I have explained the rationale of clicking "start" to shut down quite often, simply because I love to jank the cloth from under their feet :) He's partially right; if you don't like the new UI, well, that's your own preference. Your customers (the ones who pay for your code) might have a completely other preference. ..and no, people will not "move away" from Microsoft. They didn't at the introduction of Windows ME, and this Win8 sounds like it's a step up from there. Some companies will skip it; big surprise there - most of the larger ones try to skip a version, saves a fortune on licenses and hardware.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: if you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
..and no, people will not "move away" from Microsoft. They didn't at the introduction of Windows ME, and this Win8 sounds like it's a step up from there. Some companies will skip it; big surprise there - most of the larger ones try to skip a version, saves a fortune on licenses and hardware.
I think there's a good chance that will be exactly the case. I try to envision our company moving to "8" and I just don't see why they would ever consider it. You might get a segment of the company writing to the "Metro" interface eventually but converting all the tech-support desktops into tile-based front-ends? I don't see it. Also, as you point out, why spend the bucks to retool to something that isn't providing some real payback? -CB
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Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
You can still write normal Windows app that work perfectly find in Desktop mode. There's nothing that says Windows 8 only supports "Modern" apps.
That however isn't the point. An analogy... If I have been working on cars for 15 years every single day for 10 hours a day then I no longer think about where the wrench is. It is always in the same place and I reach for it with no conscious thought. So now they are going to move the wrench and maybe even put it in a box. It makes absolutely NO difference to me that the box has a really cool latch and that I can get the box in 15,000 different colors. All that matters is that I will now spend quite a long time re-learning where the wrench is. This is even more true about the pencil. Because I don't use it very often. But over many years I learned where it was. Now it too is in a different place. And it will in fact take me years to learn the new location (with a bit of time each time I need to find it to spend looking for it.) And keep in mind that I only work on the car's engine. I don't work on the radio, I don't work on the dashboard and I certainly don't paint the car. So it certainly doesn't matter to me that all of those now come in new and improved colors.
Here's another analogy. You're a heart surgeon. It took you 12 years of education, internship, etc. to get to the point where you could perform heart surgery. Some vendor comes out with a completely new process for BRAIN surgery. The author of the medical journal says you need to GROW UP if you don't go spend another 12 years learning how to use the new BRAIN SURGERY technique. It doesn't matter that YOU DON'T DO brain surgery, you just need to quit whining and GROW UP. That's about what I took away from that article. It doesn't matter that I'm a 36 year software development veteran, that I develop business-intelligence and database code, that I've learned to use WinForms as my presentation layer. I need to GROW UP and retool my entire knowledge base so I can write cute Metro apps. Never mind that my desktop applications will run EVERYWHERE ... I just need to GROW UP. Heh ... that's part of why I'm starting to avoid ZDNet. I've got better things to do than waste time reading tripe like that. -CB :)
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Here is a troll article[^] if I've ever read one. Apparently people frustrated with the ridiculous change of pace in our industry need to 'grow up'. Ken thinks that developers are upset because they've been in a coma for 10 years.
Only a developer who's been in a coma for the past ten years could wake up and be shocked by what he's seeing.
Then I read his credentials and noticed that he's a system administrator which means, of course, that he uses UIs but he doesn't create them. It looks to me that his learning is limited to learning how to use the new UI - and that is quite a bit different than learning how to create a new UI. Towards the end he writes:
I'm just saying that the UNIX command line hasn't changed and isn't likely to, so for those who like a static environment, that's one alternative--but not a negative one.
And you'll note in his credentials:
15 years of experience with Mac, Linux, UNIX
Oh, okay....I think I see how this works now. Spend your time working in a back room using UIs that don't change instead of developing UIs that change on a weekly basis and then rag on UI developers when they get a bit testy. :laugh:
Nonetheless his credentials, he have something right, if you work on computers, the only thing that remains constant is the change, and if you work on computers, you're expected to keep moving on to the next "big thing"; there are, of course, maintenance of legacy systems (here, for example, every time i look for a job i find that Cobol programmers are still needed), but one of the reasons why i choosed this carrer is because is always and constantly changing.
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
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That describes it perfectly. It is also useful for making flowcharts. Wait, flowcharts? What are those?
I think computer viruses should count as life. I think it says something about human nature that the only form of life we have created so far is purely destructive. We've created life in our own image. Stephen Hawking
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Thanks for supplying that analogy, because it's perfect! The sole little problem with it is that you said Microsoft put a box in place of the wrench and put the wrench in the box. No, they didn't. They put the box next to the wrench and left it up to you if you want to put the wrench in it.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave Kreskowiak -
Nonetheless his credentials, he have something right, if you work on computers, the only thing that remains constant is the change, and if you work on computers, you're expected to keep moving on to the next "big thing"; there are, of course, maintenance of legacy systems (here, for example, every time i look for a job i find that Cobol programmers are still needed), but one of the reasons why i choosed this carrer is because is always and constantly changing.
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
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Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
No, they didn't. They put the box next to the wrench and left it up to you if you want to put the wrench in it
Nope. They keep moving stuff. It doesn't matter how or why they moved it. All that matters is that it was moved.
I've been writing code for Windows for about 20 years now. I know how Microsoft works and how the technology advances. They keep introducing new technologies. There is nothing Microsoft does that forces you to use them right now. Sure, very old stuff gets deprecated, like the VB6 community that refuses to die. But there is NOTHING at all forcing you to write Metro/Modern apps right now.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave Kreskowiak -
I've been writing code for Windows for about 20 years now. I know how Microsoft works and how the technology advances. They keep introducing new technologies. There is nothing Microsoft does that forces you to use them right now. Sure, very old stuff gets deprecated, like the VB6 community that refuses to die. But there is NOTHING at all forcing you to write Metro/Modern apps right now.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave KreskowiakDave Kreskowiak wrote:
They keep introducing new technologies.
I didn't say anything about "new" stuff. What I said was that they moved existing stuff. Additionally you seem to be talking about the APIs and not the user interface.
Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
I've been writing code for Windows for about 20 years now. I know how Microsoft works and how the technology advances.
And I first wrote code for windows using Windows 3.1 and I used Windows 286. And I wrote code for PCDOS before that.
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Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
They keep introducing new technologies.
I didn't say anything about "new" stuff. What I said was that they moved existing stuff. Additionally you seem to be talking about the APIs and not the user interface.
Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
I've been writing code for Windows for about 20 years now. I know how Microsoft works and how the technology advances.
And I first wrote code for windows using Windows 3.1 and I used Windows 286. And I wrote code for PCDOS before that.
jschell wrote:
What I said was that they moved existing stuff.
Who hasn't moved UI stuff around?? There comes a time when it just doesn't make sense to have something where it is now or the argument that made the decision was valid then but not any more. Change happens. It's a fact of life. Why bitch about it?
jschell wrote:
And I first wrote code for windows using Windows 3.1 and I used Windows 286. And I wrote code for PCDOS before that.
You're not the only one to go back that far.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave Kreskowiak -
jschell wrote:
What I said was that they moved existing stuff.
Who hasn't moved UI stuff around?? There comes a time when it just doesn't make sense to have something where it is now or the argument that made the decision was valid then but not any more. Change happens. It's a fact of life. Why bitch about it?
jschell wrote:
And I first wrote code for windows using Windows 3.1 and I used Windows 286. And I wrote code for PCDOS before that.
You're not the only one to go back that far.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave KreskowiakDave Kreskowiak wrote:
Change happens. It's a fact of life. Why bitch about it?
Or why claim that it is better?
Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
You're not the only one to go back that far.
Yet you are the one that first posted it which suggested that you thought it was relevant.
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Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
Change happens. It's a fact of life. Why bitch about it?
Or why claim that it is better?
Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
You're not the only one to go back that far.
Yet you are the one that first posted it which suggested that you thought it was relevant.
Yeah, I brought it up because I've been through over 20 years of Microsoft's changes and not once was there any pressure to drop what you're doing and go learn "the new thing". You get to it in your own time. What WILL put the pressure on you to move to new technology are customers, not Microsoft.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave Kreskowiak -
He's a software consumer, not a software producer. For him it's just a menu change whereas for those of us who produce software it's learning XAML or a new database access framework or a new set of UI standards - where half the time we are working with incomplete frameworks so we have to write work arounds until version X fixes the problem - etc. If it was my job to understand that given a new UI I simply have to recognize that button 'A' is now located under submenu 'B' I wouldn't have much to complain about either. I'd use my spare time to write troll articles for ZDNet.
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Learning is integral part of programming. If learning becomes cumbersome, perhaps its time to start thinking about retirement.
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Yeah, I brought it up because I've been through over 20 years of Microsoft's changes and not once was there any pressure to drop what you're doing and go learn "the new thing". You get to it in your own time. What WILL put the pressure on you to move to new technology are customers, not Microsoft.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave KreskowiakDave Kreskowiak wrote:
Yeah, I brought it up because I've been through over 20 years of Microsoft's change
And thus it is certainly reasonable when I also point out that I have been through exactly the same changes as you. Thus your experience in that regard is no more relevant than mine.
Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
and not once was there any pressure to drop what you're doing and go learn "the new thing". You get to it in your own time.
Pretty sure Microsoft no longer supports Windows 3.1. So there is certainly some indirect pressure to move off of that OS.
Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
What WILL put the pressure on you to move to new technology are customers, not Microsoft.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the Windows software nor the design of the user interface. Good or bad. So I have no idea what that has to do with this sub-thread.