Honesty doesn't pay

Paul Riley

Here I am, a generally honest person, I buy what music and software I want, I pay my bills (not always on time, but I pay them), I don't rip people off, I earn an honest (and considerably above average) wage and spend it as I please. And yet my car is falling apart and to get a new one I have to look at some serious refinancing. I'm not short of money, but I can't afford to just throw away an extra couple of hundred notes a month without giving something else up. And then I look around at people who are scrounging off the state and can afford to run two decent cars and a bigger house than I have, go out drinking 7 nights a week, etc, etc. And I have to figure that they're ripping someone off; I also have to figure that directly or indirectly that person is me. Most people nowadays seem to steal whatever is easy to steal (like music and software), I know of several people who just run up massive debts and declare bankrupcy every couple of years, others make a living out of insurance claims and yet more claim state benefits that they're not entitled to. And who pays for this? The companies they're ripping off? No. It's the honest consumer. We pay more for CDs and software because of piracy, we pay more for insurance to cover the payments, we certainly pay our taxes to cover benefit fraud, and we surely pay more charges at the bank to pay off other people's bad debts. :mad: So I can't help but wonder, why do I bother? I can't go to a car dealer and say "I have plenty of moral high ground, what kind of car can I have?". I sure don't sleep any better at night. I don't believe in God, so there's no big payoff coming in the afterlife. So why don't I go around and "play the game" much like everyone else does? Sure the world would be a better place if everyone led a moral life, but they don't and there's very little incentive for people to do so. I doubt I'm going to suddenly change, take copies of all my CDs and sell the originals, buy a scam satellite TV decoder card, start copying software, go looking around for ways to injure myself for money, claim the dole, etc. But I sure would appreciate it if someone would explain to me why I shouldn't? Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath, one day closer to death - Pink Floyd, Time

Paul Watson

Paul Riley wrote: But I sure would appreciate it if someone would explain to me why I shouldn't? Maybe naive but because you feel good about yourself. Those scammers live everyday in fear of being caught. They look behind bushes, under their car, they shudder everytime they open a letter, jump in fright everytime their phone rings. Those people who know them do not respect them. Their kids will never look up to them. Their partner just stays around so they can skim off what they can, not because they love or respect them (or gender vice versa.) Those last moments as they die are ones filled with immense regret. Not the feeling of joy and well-being that you will die with. I guess it depends what you want Paul. Lots of cool stuff that will eventually come and bite you in the arse or to be a good person who is happy in themselves. Call me naive, but the latter sounds better. You are judging yourself based on their fucked up standards, their standards of material worth. You don't have to be religious or beleive in God to want spiritual wealth.

Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa

Roger Wright wrote: Using a feather is kinky; using the whole chicken is perverted!

Paul Riley

I kind of agree with you. I certainly feel better about myself and that's why I almost certainly wouldn't change. However, I don't see a lot of remorse coming from the kind of people I'm talking about. Not many spend time worrying about the consequences until they do jump up and bite them in the ass (which is much more rare than I'd like them to be); I certainly doubt the deathbed repentance theory. Most console themselves with the fact that they're ripping off big faceless companies and governments who clearly make too much money out of us anyway. If you try to explain that these losses are offset by passing them on to the honest consumer, they just shrug and avoid the conversation. I really can't help but wonder how much of an attitude adjustment it would take to make me think that way. I really do want a nice new car :-D Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath, one day closer to death - Pink Floyd, Time

Marc Clifton

We pay more for CDs and software because of piracy, we pay more for insurance to cover the payments, we certainly pay our taxes to cover benefit fraud, and we surely pay more charges at the bank to pay off other people's bad debts No, we pay more for this because businesses and governments legitimize immoral activity because ultimately it makes THEM richer. Why? Because they use these activities to raise the cost of goods to the moral consumer dispraportionately to their loss. Consider how in the US, the price of gas rose from $1.50 to $1.70 (20 cents, or 13%) because Venezuela's oil output dropped to near nothing. Of course, OPEC increased oil production by 1.5m barrels a day to compensate for Venezuelas decline in output (about 2mb/day). Did that have any influence. NO! Because industry can f*ck the consumer with bad news. Another example: health insurance costs have risen by more than 50% at the beginning of each of the years 2002 and 2003. Why? They site "terrorism threats". Really. And at the same time, co-pays have gone up, quality has gone to hell in a handbasket, and even doctors are starting to strike. And finally, we get to the subject of taxes. States here in the US are cutting back on essential services and considering major tax increases because they're all going bankrupt. Why? Yes, you can blame the economy, the stock market, the collapse of Enron et al., but the real reason is that government refuses to look at its own inefficiencies and money laundering tactics, so again the small guy gets screwed. I never new getting fucked could be so painful. In many ways, I, as the small guy consumer, feel raped and victimized by big industry and government. And you know what really pisses me off? My girlfriend makes $8/hr at a daycare taking care of precious life--infants, and at $16,000 a year (BEFORE taxes), that's poverty wages here in Rhode Island. She couldn't even afford an apartment on her own, anywhere from $600-$1200 per month. :mad: :mad: :mad: Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"

Paul Watson

Paul Riley wrote: However, I don't see a lot of remorse coming from the kind of people I'm talking about You don't see what is in their head at night as they drop off to a troubled sleep. But then I cannot say anything more than I have already said. I have made my case to you, hope you take the right path, not the popular one. :)

Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa

Roger Wright wrote: Using a feather is kinky; using the whole chicken is perverted!

Marc Clifton

Those scammers live everyday in fear of being caught. They look behind bushes, under their car, they shudder everytime they open a letter, jump in fright everytime their phone rings. Those people who know them do not respect them. Their kids will never look up to them. Their partner just stays around so they can skim off what they can, not because they love or respect them (or gender vice versa.) Some. Not all. The ones I've known laugh with the cops and the judges as they pass the cocaine around. I'm serious. New Haven, Connecticut, USA, is SO corrupt. And all the rich snorting people live in Madison CT. I could give you several addresses of known coke snorters, if you'd like, and their cop, lawyer, and judge friends. Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"

Lost User

Well said Paul :cool: I've known people like that and their gains are short term, their losses long term. Elaine (fluffy tigress emoticon) The tigress is here :-D

Paul Watson

Marc Clifton wrote: Some. Not all. The ones I've known laugh with the cops and the judges as they pass the cocaine around. Does not matter. They will die alone, they will die fearful, they will die with regret and they will die unhappy. It has nothing to do with anyone else, just what is in your head, what you think of yourself.

Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa

Roger Wright wrote: Using a feather is kinky; using the whole chicken is perverted!

benjymous

Paul Riley wrote: Most console themselves with the fact that they're ripping off big faceless companies and governments who clearly make too much money out of us anyway. I once knew someone who was of the opinion that because shop prices were high to make up for shoplifting, then that obviously made shoplifting perfectly ok :mad: -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit!

Paul Riley

Marc Clifton wrote: No, we pay more for this because businesses and governments legitimize immoral activity because ultimately it makes THEM richer. Why? Because they use these activities to raise the cost of goods to the moral consumer dispraportionately to their loss. Don't get me wrong, Marc. I understand that government, "big" business and the inevitable relationship between the two bear a fair amount of the blame for the situation. If nothing else, simply cracking down on illegal business practices and illegal consumer practices would rebalance things in favour of those who don't break the law. But (a) it's too easy to blame just the government, as if people don't have free will and (b) the system is already screwed and I'm questioning what I get in return for trying not to be part of it. Marc Clifton wrote: I never new getting f***ed could be so painful. I hear that. :mad: Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath, one day closer to death - Pink Floyd, Time

Paul Riley

Paul Watson wrote: You don't see what is in their head at night as they drop off to a troubled sleep. True, but then neither do you. I'd like to believe there's a downside, but it's not easy. Paul Watson wrote: But then I cannot say anything more than I have already said. I have made my case to you, hope you take the right path, not the popular one. You can be sure of it, I'm just letting off steam. That's what this place is here for, right? ;P Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath, one day closer to death - Pink Floyd, Time

Paul Riley

benjymous wrote: I once knew someone who was of the opinion that because shop prices were high to make up for shoplifting, then that obviously made shoplifting perfectly ok I've heard that one too. Sadly, in the short-term, it's hard to argue. You can be sure that if everyone stopped shoplifting today then the "victim" companies wouldn't pass that gain back to the consumer. The fact that this kind of thinking is responsible for the system being screwed doesn't wash with this kind of person. My personal favourite argument was the guy who claimed that software pirates were responsible for Microsoft's success (eg. because there were so many pirate copies of Office around, everyone started writing documents in Word and people needed Word to read them, etc, etc). And thus, in this guy's mind, Microsoft were forgetting their roots when they try to stop people stealing their software. The cads! It's amazing what people will come up with to justify their actions. Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath, one day closer to death - Pink Floyd, Time

Rohit Sinha

I understand how you feel. Let me tell you what I am doing about it. I too get frustrated sometimes when I see all those guys not paying their tax, or taking bribes or paying bribes to get their work done faster or get it done when it should not have been done at all, etc etc. The pain is too much, and I wonder whether I am a lone fool sticking my neck out in the cold facing all this. But then in the end, I know that this is what will make me feel better, compared to what'd I feel after I've bribed a burocrat to do my work, for example. The uneasiness, the guilt, the pain, will be too much for me to bear. I won't ever be able to walk with my head held high, never be able to tell someone what he/she should do, never be able to scold another person if I catch him/her doing something wrong (yes, I do that often ;P ). These people do what they are doing because 1) they don't think much about it, and just choose the easy option 2) there are so many people doing it that it's not possible for the authorities to pay much attention to each of them individually. Well, I thought I'm going to change that. I'll bring some of them over to my side, and these people in turn will help bring more people over to this side. I am proud to tell you that in the past few months, I've successfully: 1) Convinced a few people to start paying their taxes, buy music and software from the store, etc 2) Made a few people more patriotic, more aware of the political and economic situation in India, and willing to do their bit about it 3) Convinced a few people to give up smoking 4) Convinced a few people to stop giving/accepting bribes 5) Helped a few people learn how to read and write (I am a volunteer at a local adult education programme) 6) In general made better people out of at least a few people, including the ones described above Let me tell you from personal experience, the most expensive car, the coolest gadgets in the world, the best restaurant in the world, cannot give you the satisfaction and happiness that this kind of thing does. Whenever I feel depressed about the situation, I remind myself of all these people I helped become better persons, and suddenly I feel much better, ready to take on anything. Money and comfort become dwarfed before it. All the toil, the agony, suddenly seems worth it. And the best part of all this is that now these people themselves are evangelists of the cause, and are trying to bring more people to this side. The tribe is increasing, slowly. It works. So while I cannot te

Paul Riley

Thanks for that, Rohit, I appreciate it. I too have managed to "convert" some people, but for every success I'd claim at least ten failures. Keep up the good work and don't worry about me, I'm just having a cynical day after being told that the repairs on my car will cost more than my car will be worth after the repairs. I'll be back to my self-righteous self (for want of a better phrase) in a day or two. Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath, one day closer to death - Pink Floyd, Time

Rohit Sinha

Paul Riley wrote: I too have managed to "convert" some people, but for every success I'd claim at least ten failures. You are right. In fact, I think the ratio is even higher for me. But that's OK. The people with whom I failed today were left with a small effect of me nevertheless, however miniscule, and I am not going to give up on them, so some day or the other I'm going to bring them over to this side. ;P Paul Riley wrote: I'll be back to my self-righteous self (for want of a better phrase) in a day or two. That's good to hear. :)
Regards,

Rohit Sinha

Character is like a tree, and reputation like its shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing.
- Abraham Lincoln

The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going.
- Anonymous

Jason Henderson

Paul Riley wrote: I don't believe in God, so there's no big payoff coming in the afterlife. So why don't I go around and "play the game" much like everyone else does? Sure the world would be a better place if everyone led a moral life, but they don't and there's very little incentive for people to do so. What good is morality if there is no God? On whose authority have these morals been established. If it is on the authority of man, then they are worthless. If you don't believe in God then you are just lying to yourself, therefore you may not be as honest as you think. Just my $.02.

Jason Henderson
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

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Paul Riley

Jason Henderson wrote: What good is morality if there is no God? Are you serious??? If you didn't believe there was a god, you would go around doing whatever you please, not whatever you know is the right thing to do? Jason Henderson wrote: On whose authority have these morals been established. If it is on the authority of man, then they are worthless. And on whose authority are your morals established? Certainly you haven't asked God personally, so you trust in the church to dictate your morality? Is the church not an authority of man? Jason Henderson wrote: If you don't believe in God then you are just lying to yourself, therefore you may not be as honest as you think. What??? Okay, Jason, you've lost me completely. Are you saying that anyone who doesn't believe in god is naturally immoral because you not only believe but KNOW there is a god? Very Christian of you. Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath, one day closer to death - Pink Floyd, Time

Jason Henderson

Paul Riley wrote: Are you serious??? If you didn't believe there was a god, you would go around doing whatever you please, not whatever you know is the right thing to do? Yes, I'm perfectly serious. You may not believe in God but I do. I believe that he has given us our morals. They are ingrained in our hearts from day one. Everyone knows right from wrong but not everyone chooses to recognize it. Paul Riley wrote: And on whose authority are your morals established? Certainly you haven't asked God personally, so you trust in the church to dictate your morality? Is the church not an authority of man? Some churches are under the authority of man. But, according to Christian belief, the Bible is God's word (his authority) on which our morals are established. Yes, it was authored by men, but not by normal men. Men with the spirit of God dwelling within them. Paul Riley wrote: What??? Okay, Jason, you've lost me completely. Are you saying that anyone who doesn't believe in god is naturally immoral because you not only believe but KNOW there is a god? Very Christian of you. Like I said, that was my $.02. Let's assume there is a God for the moment and he is the embodiment of truth, and love. If you don't believe in that God of truth in whom all authority/morality is established, then you are lying to yourself. Therefore, you aren't being as honest as you may think. Its your choice to believe in God or not, I'm just telling you why I think it pays to be honest based on my belief. If you don't want me to participate in the discussion then don't ask for my opinion. ;)

Jason Henderson
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

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Paul Watson

Jason Henderson wrote: If you don't believe in God then you are just lying to yourself, therefore you may not be as honest as you think. Sounds like you are having a cynical day yourself. You are not normally this "holier than thou".

Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa

Roger Wright wrote: Using a feather is kinky; using the whole chicken is perverted!

benjymous

Marc Clifton wrote: And you know what really pisses me off? My girlfriend makes $8/hr at a daycare taking care of precious life Yeah, my Mum works in a Creche, and earns less than she would get stacking shelves in a supermarket. That's just plain criminal, if you ask me -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit!