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  4. Honesty doesn't pay

Honesty doesn't pay

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  • M Marc Clifton

    We pay more for CDs and software because of piracy, we pay more for insurance to cover the payments, we certainly pay our taxes to cover benefit fraud, and we surely pay more charges at the bank to pay off other people's bad debts No, we pay more for this because businesses and governments legitimize immoral activity because ultimately it makes THEM richer. Why? Because they use these activities to raise the cost of goods to the moral consumer dispraportionately to their loss. Consider how in the US, the price of gas rose from $1.50 to $1.70 (20 cents, or 13%) because Venezuela's oil output dropped to near nothing. Of course, OPEC increased oil production by 1.5m barrels a day to compensate for Venezuelas decline in output (about 2mb/day). Did that have any influence. NO! Because industry can f*ck the consumer with bad news. Another example: health insurance costs have risen by more than 50% at the beginning of each of the years 2002 and 2003. Why? They site "terrorism threats". Really. And at the same time, co-pays have gone up, quality has gone to hell in a handbasket, and even doctors are starting to strike. And finally, we get to the subject of taxes. States here in the US are cutting back on essential services and considering major tax increases because they're all going bankrupt. Why? Yes, you can blame the economy, the stock market, the collapse of Enron et al., but the real reason is that government refuses to look at its own inefficiencies and money laundering tactics, so again the small guy gets screwed. I never new getting fucked could be so painful. In many ways, I, as the small guy consumer, feel raped and victimized by big industry and government. And you know what really pisses me off? My girlfriend makes $8/hr at a daycare taking care of precious life--infants, and at $16,000 a year (BEFORE taxes), that's poverty wages here in Rhode Island. She couldn't even afford an apartment on her own, anywhere from $600-$1200 per month. :mad: :mad: :mad: Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
    Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
    Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
    Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"

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    Paul Riley
    wrote on last edited by
    #10

    Marc Clifton wrote: No, we pay more for this because businesses and governments legitimize immoral activity because ultimately it makes THEM richer. Why? Because they use these activities to raise the cost of goods to the moral consumer dispraportionately to their loss. Don't get me wrong, Marc. I understand that government, "big" business and the inevitable relationship between the two bear a fair amount of the blame for the situation. If nothing else, simply cracking down on illegal business practices and illegal consumer practices would rebalance things in favour of those who don't break the law. But (a) it's too easy to blame just the government, as if people don't have free will and (b) the system is already screwed and I'm questioning what I get in return for trying not to be part of it. Marc Clifton wrote: I never new getting f***ed could be so painful. I hear that. :mad: Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
    Racing around to come up behind you again
    The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
    Shorter of breath, one day closer to death     - Pink Floyd, Time

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    • P Paul Watson

      Paul Riley wrote: However, I don't see a lot of remorse coming from the kind of people I'm talking about You don't see what is in their head at night as they drop off to a troubled sleep. But then I cannot say anything more than I have already said. I have made my case to you, hope you take the right path, not the popular one. :)

      Paul Watson
      Bluegrass
      Cape Town, South Africa

      Roger Wright wrote: Using a feather is kinky; using the whole chicken is perverted!

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      Paul Riley
      wrote on last edited by
      #11

      Paul Watson wrote: You don't see what is in their head at night as they drop off to a troubled sleep. True, but then neither do you. I'd like to believe there's a downside, but it's not easy. Paul Watson wrote: But then I cannot say anything more than I have already said. I have made my case to you, hope you take the right path, not the popular one. You can be sure of it, I'm just letting off steam. That's what this place is here for, right? ;P Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
      Racing around to come up behind you again
      The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
      Shorter of breath, one day closer to death       - Pink Floyd, Time

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      • B benjymous

        Paul Riley wrote: Most console themselves with the fact that they're ripping off big faceless companies and governments who clearly make too much money out of us anyway. I once knew someone who was of the opinion that because shop prices were high to make up for shoplifting, then that obviously made shoplifting perfectly ok :mad: -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit!

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        Paul Riley
        wrote on last edited by
        #12

        benjymous wrote: I once knew someone who was of the opinion that because shop prices were high to make up for shoplifting, then that obviously made shoplifting perfectly ok I've heard that one too. Sadly, in the short-term, it's hard to argue. You can be sure that if everyone stopped shoplifting today then the "victim" companies wouldn't pass that gain back to the consumer. The fact that this kind of thinking is responsible for the system being screwed doesn't wash with this kind of person. My personal favourite argument was the guy who claimed that software pirates were responsible for Microsoft's success (eg. because there were so many pirate copies of Office around, everyone started writing documents in Word and people needed Word to read them, etc, etc). And thus, in this guy's mind, Microsoft were forgetting their roots when they try to stop people stealing their software. The cads! It's amazing what people will come up with to justify their actions. Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
        Racing around to come up behind you again
        The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
        Shorter of breath, one day closer to death         - Pink Floyd, Time

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        • P Paul Riley

          Here I am, a generally honest person, I buy what music and software I want, I pay my bills (not always on time, but I pay them), I don't rip people off, I earn an honest (and considerably above average) wage and spend it as I please. And yet my car is falling apart and to get a new one I have to look at some serious refinancing. I'm not short of money, but I can't afford to just throw away an extra couple of hundred notes a month without giving something else up. And then I look around at people who are scrounging off the state and can afford to run two decent cars and a bigger house than I have, go out drinking 7 nights a week, etc, etc. And I have to figure that they're ripping someone off; I also have to figure that directly or indirectly that person is me. Most people nowadays seem to steal whatever is easy to steal (like music and software), I know of several people who just run up massive debts and declare bankrupcy every couple of years, others make a living out of insurance claims and yet more claim state benefits that they're not entitled to. And who pays for this? The companies they're ripping off? No. It's the honest consumer. We pay more for CDs and software because of piracy, we pay more for insurance to cover the payments, we certainly pay our taxes to cover benefit fraud, and we surely pay more charges at the bank to pay off other people's bad debts. :mad: So I can't help but wonder, why do I bother? I can't go to a car dealer and say "I have plenty of moral high ground, what kind of car can I have?". I sure don't sleep any better at night. I don't believe in God, so there's no big payoff coming in the afterlife. So why don't I go around and "play the game" much like everyone else does? Sure the world would be a better place if everyone led a moral life, but they don't and there's very little incentive for people to do so. I doubt I'm going to suddenly change, take copies of all my CDs and sell the originals, buy a scam satellite TV decoder card, start copying software, go looking around for ways to injure myself for money, claim the dole, etc. But I sure would appreciate it if someone would explain to me why I shouldn't? Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
          Racing around to come up behind you again
          The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
          Shorter of breath, one day closer to death           - Pink Floyd, Time

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          Rohit Sinha
          wrote on last edited by
          #13

          I understand how you feel. Let me tell you what I am doing about it. I too get frustrated sometimes when I see all those guys not paying their tax, or taking bribes or paying bribes to get their work done faster or get it done when it should not have been done at all, etc etc. The pain is too much, and I wonder whether I am a lone fool sticking my neck out in the cold facing all this. But then in the end, I know that this is what will make me feel better, compared to what'd I feel after I've bribed a burocrat to do my work, for example. The uneasiness, the guilt, the pain, will be too much for me to bear. I won't ever be able to walk with my head held high, never be able to tell someone what he/she should do, never be able to scold another person if I catch him/her doing something wrong (yes, I do that often ;P ). These people do what they are doing because 1) they don't think much about it, and just choose the easy option 2) there are so many people doing it that it's not possible for the authorities to pay much attention to each of them individually. Well, I thought I'm going to change that. I'll bring some of them over to my side, and these people in turn will help bring more people over to this side. I am proud to tell you that in the past few months, I've successfully: 1) Convinced a few people to start paying their taxes, buy music and software from the store, etc 2) Made a few people more patriotic, more aware of the political and economic situation in India, and willing to do their bit about it 3) Convinced a few people to give up smoking 4) Convinced a few people to stop giving/accepting bribes 5) Helped a few people learn how to read and write (I am a volunteer at a local adult education programme) 6) In general made better people out of at least a few people, including the ones described above Let me tell you from personal experience, the most expensive car, the coolest gadgets in the world, the best restaurant in the world, cannot give you the satisfaction and happiness that this kind of thing does. Whenever I feel depressed about the situation, I remind myself of all these people I helped become better persons, and suddenly I feel much better, ready to take on anything. Money and comfort become dwarfed before it. All the toil, the agony, suddenly seems worth it. And the best part of all this is that now these people themselves are evangelists of the cause, and are trying to bring more people to this side. The tribe is increasing, slowly. It works. So while I cannot te

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          • R Rohit Sinha

            I understand how you feel. Let me tell you what I am doing about it. I too get frustrated sometimes when I see all those guys not paying their tax, or taking bribes or paying bribes to get their work done faster or get it done when it should not have been done at all, etc etc. The pain is too much, and I wonder whether I am a lone fool sticking my neck out in the cold facing all this. But then in the end, I know that this is what will make me feel better, compared to what'd I feel after I've bribed a burocrat to do my work, for example. The uneasiness, the guilt, the pain, will be too much for me to bear. I won't ever be able to walk with my head held high, never be able to tell someone what he/she should do, never be able to scold another person if I catch him/her doing something wrong (yes, I do that often ;P ). These people do what they are doing because 1) they don't think much about it, and just choose the easy option 2) there are so many people doing it that it's not possible for the authorities to pay much attention to each of them individually. Well, I thought I'm going to change that. I'll bring some of them over to my side, and these people in turn will help bring more people over to this side. I am proud to tell you that in the past few months, I've successfully: 1) Convinced a few people to start paying their taxes, buy music and software from the store, etc 2) Made a few people more patriotic, more aware of the political and economic situation in India, and willing to do their bit about it 3) Convinced a few people to give up smoking 4) Convinced a few people to stop giving/accepting bribes 5) Helped a few people learn how to read and write (I am a volunteer at a local adult education programme) 6) In general made better people out of at least a few people, including the ones described above Let me tell you from personal experience, the most expensive car, the coolest gadgets in the world, the best restaurant in the world, cannot give you the satisfaction and happiness that this kind of thing does. Whenever I feel depressed about the situation, I remind myself of all these people I helped become better persons, and suddenly I feel much better, ready to take on anything. Money and comfort become dwarfed before it. All the toil, the agony, suddenly seems worth it. And the best part of all this is that now these people themselves are evangelists of the cause, and are trying to bring more people to this side. The tribe is increasing, slowly. It works. So while I cannot te

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            Paul Riley
            wrote on last edited by
            #14

            Thanks for that, Rohit, I appreciate it. I too have managed to "convert" some people, but for every success I'd claim at least ten failures. Keep up the good work and don't worry about me, I'm just having a cynical day after being told that the repairs on my car will cost more than my car will be worth after the repairs. I'll be back to my self-righteous self (for want of a better phrase) in a day or two. Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
            Racing around to come up behind you again
            The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
            Shorter of breath, one day closer to death             - Pink Floyd, Time

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            • P Paul Riley

              Thanks for that, Rohit, I appreciate it. I too have managed to "convert" some people, but for every success I'd claim at least ten failures. Keep up the good work and don't worry about me, I'm just having a cynical day after being told that the repairs on my car will cost more than my car will be worth after the repairs. I'll be back to my self-righteous self (for want of a better phrase) in a day or two. Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
              Racing around to come up behind you again
              The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
              Shorter of breath, one day closer to death               - Pink Floyd, Time

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              Rohit Sinha
              wrote on last edited by
              #15

              Paul Riley wrote: I too have managed to "convert" some people, but for every success I'd claim at least ten failures. You are right. In fact, I think the ratio is even higher for me. But that's OK. The people with whom I failed today were left with a small effect of me nevertheless, however miniscule, and I am not going to give up on them, so some day or the other I'm going to bring them over to this side. ;P Paul Riley wrote: I'll be back to my self-righteous self (for want of a better phrase) in a day or two. That's good to hear. :)
              Regards,

              Rohit Sinha

              Character is like a tree, and reputation like its shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing.
              - Abraham Lincoln

              The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going.
              - Anonymous

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              • P Paul Riley

                Here I am, a generally honest person, I buy what music and software I want, I pay my bills (not always on time, but I pay them), I don't rip people off, I earn an honest (and considerably above average) wage and spend it as I please. And yet my car is falling apart and to get a new one I have to look at some serious refinancing. I'm not short of money, but I can't afford to just throw away an extra couple of hundred notes a month without giving something else up. And then I look around at people who are scrounging off the state and can afford to run two decent cars and a bigger house than I have, go out drinking 7 nights a week, etc, etc. And I have to figure that they're ripping someone off; I also have to figure that directly or indirectly that person is me. Most people nowadays seem to steal whatever is easy to steal (like music and software), I know of several people who just run up massive debts and declare bankrupcy every couple of years, others make a living out of insurance claims and yet more claim state benefits that they're not entitled to. And who pays for this? The companies they're ripping off? No. It's the honest consumer. We pay more for CDs and software because of piracy, we pay more for insurance to cover the payments, we certainly pay our taxes to cover benefit fraud, and we surely pay more charges at the bank to pay off other people's bad debts. :mad: So I can't help but wonder, why do I bother? I can't go to a car dealer and say "I have plenty of moral high ground, what kind of car can I have?". I sure don't sleep any better at night. I don't believe in God, so there's no big payoff coming in the afterlife. So why don't I go around and "play the game" much like everyone else does? Sure the world would be a better place if everyone led a moral life, but they don't and there's very little incentive for people to do so. I doubt I'm going to suddenly change, take copies of all my CDs and sell the originals, buy a scam satellite TV decoder card, start copying software, go looking around for ways to injure myself for money, claim the dole, etc. But I sure would appreciate it if someone would explain to me why I shouldn't? Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
                Racing around to come up behind you again
                The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
                Shorter of breath, one day closer to death                 - Pink Floyd, Time

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                Jason Henderson
                wrote on last edited by
                #16

                Paul Riley wrote: I don't believe in God, so there's no big payoff coming in the afterlife. So why don't I go around and "play the game" much like everyone else does? Sure the world would be a better place if everyone led a moral life, but they don't and there's very little incentive for people to do so. What good is morality if there is no God? On whose authority have these morals been established. If it is on the authority of man, then they are worthless. If you don't believe in God then you are just lying to yourself, therefore you may not be as honest as you think. Just my $.02.

                Jason Henderson
                "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

                articles profile

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                • J Jason Henderson

                  Paul Riley wrote: I don't believe in God, so there's no big payoff coming in the afterlife. So why don't I go around and "play the game" much like everyone else does? Sure the world would be a better place if everyone led a moral life, but they don't and there's very little incentive for people to do so. What good is morality if there is no God? On whose authority have these morals been established. If it is on the authority of man, then they are worthless. If you don't believe in God then you are just lying to yourself, therefore you may not be as honest as you think. Just my $.02.

                  Jason Henderson
                  "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

                  articles profile

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                  Paul Riley
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #17

                  Jason Henderson wrote: What good is morality if there is no God? Are you serious??? If you didn't believe there was a god, you would go around doing whatever you please, not whatever you know is the right thing to do? Jason Henderson wrote: On whose authority have these morals been established. If it is on the authority of man, then they are worthless. And on whose authority are your morals established? Certainly you haven't asked God personally, so you trust in the church to dictate your morality? Is the church not an authority of man? Jason Henderson wrote: If you don't believe in God then you are just lying to yourself, therefore you may not be as honest as you think. What??? Okay, Jason, you've lost me completely. Are you saying that anyone who doesn't believe in god is naturally immoral because you not only believe but KNOW there is a god? Very Christian of you. Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
                  Racing around to come up behind you again
                  The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
                  Shorter of breath, one day closer to death                   - Pink Floyd, Time

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                  • P Paul Riley

                    Jason Henderson wrote: What good is morality if there is no God? Are you serious??? If you didn't believe there was a god, you would go around doing whatever you please, not whatever you know is the right thing to do? Jason Henderson wrote: On whose authority have these morals been established. If it is on the authority of man, then they are worthless. And on whose authority are your morals established? Certainly you haven't asked God personally, so you trust in the church to dictate your morality? Is the church not an authority of man? Jason Henderson wrote: If you don't believe in God then you are just lying to yourself, therefore you may not be as honest as you think. What??? Okay, Jason, you've lost me completely. Are you saying that anyone who doesn't believe in god is naturally immoral because you not only believe but KNOW there is a god? Very Christian of you. Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
                    Racing around to come up behind you again
                    The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
                    Shorter of breath, one day closer to death                     - Pink Floyd, Time

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                    J Offline
                    Jason Henderson
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #18

                    Paul Riley wrote: Are you serious??? If you didn't believe there was a god, you would go around doing whatever you please, not whatever you know is the right thing to do? Yes, I'm perfectly serious. You may not believe in God but I do. I believe that he has given us our morals. They are ingrained in our hearts from day one. Everyone knows right from wrong but not everyone chooses to recognize it. Paul Riley wrote: And on whose authority are your morals established? Certainly you haven't asked God personally, so you trust in the church to dictate your morality? Is the church not an authority of man? Some churches are under the authority of man. But, according to Christian belief, the Bible is God's word (his authority) on which our morals are established. Yes, it was authored by men, but not by normal men. Men with the spirit of God dwelling within them. Paul Riley wrote: What??? Okay, Jason, you've lost me completely. Are you saying that anyone who doesn't believe in god is naturally immoral because you not only believe but KNOW there is a god? Very Christian of you. Like I said, that was my $.02. Let's assume there is a God for the moment and he is the embodiment of truth, and love. If you don't believe in that God of truth in whom all authority/morality is established, then you are lying to yourself. Therefore, you aren't being as honest as you may think. Its your choice to believe in God or not, I'm just telling you why I think it pays to be honest based on my belief. If you don't want me to participate in the discussion then don't ask for my opinion. ;)

                    Jason Henderson
                    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

                    articles profile

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                    • J Jason Henderson

                      Paul Riley wrote: I don't believe in God, so there's no big payoff coming in the afterlife. So why don't I go around and "play the game" much like everyone else does? Sure the world would be a better place if everyone led a moral life, but they don't and there's very little incentive for people to do so. What good is morality if there is no God? On whose authority have these morals been established. If it is on the authority of man, then they are worthless. If you don't believe in God then you are just lying to yourself, therefore you may not be as honest as you think. Just my $.02.

                      Jason Henderson
                      "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

                      articles profile

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                      Paul Watson
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #19

                      Jason Henderson wrote: If you don't believe in God then you are just lying to yourself, therefore you may not be as honest as you think. Sounds like you are having a cynical day yourself. You are not normally this "holier than thou".

                      Paul Watson
                      Bluegrass
                      Cape Town, South Africa

                      Roger Wright wrote: Using a feather is kinky; using the whole chicken is perverted!

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                      • M Marc Clifton

                        We pay more for CDs and software because of piracy, we pay more for insurance to cover the payments, we certainly pay our taxes to cover benefit fraud, and we surely pay more charges at the bank to pay off other people's bad debts No, we pay more for this because businesses and governments legitimize immoral activity because ultimately it makes THEM richer. Why? Because they use these activities to raise the cost of goods to the moral consumer dispraportionately to their loss. Consider how in the US, the price of gas rose from $1.50 to $1.70 (20 cents, or 13%) because Venezuela's oil output dropped to near nothing. Of course, OPEC increased oil production by 1.5m barrels a day to compensate for Venezuelas decline in output (about 2mb/day). Did that have any influence. NO! Because industry can f*ck the consumer with bad news. Another example: health insurance costs have risen by more than 50% at the beginning of each of the years 2002 and 2003. Why? They site "terrorism threats". Really. And at the same time, co-pays have gone up, quality has gone to hell in a handbasket, and even doctors are starting to strike. And finally, we get to the subject of taxes. States here in the US are cutting back on essential services and considering major tax increases because they're all going bankrupt. Why? Yes, you can blame the economy, the stock market, the collapse of Enron et al., but the real reason is that government refuses to look at its own inefficiencies and money laundering tactics, so again the small guy gets screwed. I never new getting fucked could be so painful. In many ways, I, as the small guy consumer, feel raped and victimized by big industry and government. And you know what really pisses me off? My girlfriend makes $8/hr at a daycare taking care of precious life--infants, and at $16,000 a year (BEFORE taxes), that's poverty wages here in Rhode Island. She couldn't even afford an apartment on her own, anywhere from $600-$1200 per month. :mad: :mad: :mad: Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
                        Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
                        Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
                        Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"

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                        benjymous
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #20

                        Marc Clifton wrote: And you know what really pisses me off? My girlfriend makes $8/hr at a daycare taking care of precious life Yeah, my Mum works in a Creche, and earns less than she would get stacking shelves in a supermarket. That's just plain criminal, if you ask me -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit!

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                        • P Paul Watson

                          Jason Henderson wrote: If you don't believe in God then you are just lying to yourself, therefore you may not be as honest as you think. Sounds like you are having a cynical day yourself. You are not normally this "holier than thou".

                          Paul Watson
                          Bluegrass
                          Cape Town, South Africa

                          Roger Wright wrote: Using a feather is kinky; using the whole chicken is perverted!

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                          Jason Henderson
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #21

                          Paul Watson wrote: Sounds like you are having a cynical day yourself. You are not normally this "holier than thou". Check my response to Paul R. I really wasn't trying to be "holier than thou". When you get too haughty, it tends to drive people away. Sometimes I do get frustrated and want to shout at people, "WHY CAN'T YOU SEE WHAT I SEE?" Sorry if I get that way sometimes.

                          Jason Henderson
                          "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

                          articles profile

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                          • J Jason Henderson

                            Paul Riley wrote: Are you serious??? If you didn't believe there was a god, you would go around doing whatever you please, not whatever you know is the right thing to do? Yes, I'm perfectly serious. You may not believe in God but I do. I believe that he has given us our morals. They are ingrained in our hearts from day one. Everyone knows right from wrong but not everyone chooses to recognize it. Paul Riley wrote: And on whose authority are your morals established? Certainly you haven't asked God personally, so you trust in the church to dictate your morality? Is the church not an authority of man? Some churches are under the authority of man. But, according to Christian belief, the Bible is God's word (his authority) on which our morals are established. Yes, it was authored by men, but not by normal men. Men with the spirit of God dwelling within them. Paul Riley wrote: What??? Okay, Jason, you've lost me completely. Are you saying that anyone who doesn't believe in god is naturally immoral because you not only believe but KNOW there is a god? Very Christian of you. Like I said, that was my $.02. Let's assume there is a God for the moment and he is the embodiment of truth, and love. If you don't believe in that God of truth in whom all authority/morality is established, then you are lying to yourself. Therefore, you aren't being as honest as you may think. Its your choice to believe in God or not, I'm just telling you why I think it pays to be honest based on my belief. If you don't want me to participate in the discussion then don't ask for my opinion. ;)

                            Jason Henderson
                            "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

                            articles profile

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                            Paul Riley
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #22

                            Jason Henderson wrote: Yes, I'm perfectly serious. You may not believe in God but I do. I understand that and respect your right to believe. However, what you seemed to be implying that every time you do something "right", you're doing it out of fear, rather than because it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling. That's a weird way of looking at it to me. In my thinking, I don't honestly care whether there is a god or not because I do the right thing for the sake of doing the right thing. If it turns out I was wrong all along then I WILL laugh and apologise and hope that HE doesn't look too darkly on me for my lack of faith but rather look well on me for my humble good deeds, but that sure as hell isn't why I try to do the right thing. Jason Henderson wrote: Some churches are under the authority of man. But, according to Christian belief, the Bible is God's word (his authority) on which our morals are established. Yes, it was authored by men, but not by normal men. Men with the spirit of God dwelling within them. Assuming you believe that. Of course, with translations and interpretations, it becomes about what the church believes and not what the bible actually says. I have nothing against that particularly, just saying that the church is still about the morality of man, just a different group of men. Jason Henderson wrote: Let's assume there is a God for the moment and he is the embodiment of truth, and love. If you don't believe in that God of truth in whom all authority/morality is established, then you are lying to yourself. But if there isn't a god then you are lying to yourself. But I would never suggest that as I cannot prove or disprove the reality of god, nor can you. Faith is a personal thing, I will not dismiss your faith if you don't dismiss my lack of it. Jason Henderson wrote: If you don't want me to participate in the discussion then don't ask for my opinion. I didn't mean to give that impression, your comments are as welcome as anyone else's. But my lack of faith means that a lecture on doing the right thing just because God wants me to is useless to me. I was just expressing my discomfort with your announcing my immorality purely based on my lack of faith. Or... I find your feelings on my lack of faith disturbing :-D. Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
                            Racing around to come up behind you again

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                            • P Paul Riley

                              Here I am, a generally honest person, I buy what music and software I want, I pay my bills (not always on time, but I pay them), I don't rip people off, I earn an honest (and considerably above average) wage and spend it as I please. And yet my car is falling apart and to get a new one I have to look at some serious refinancing. I'm not short of money, but I can't afford to just throw away an extra couple of hundred notes a month without giving something else up. And then I look around at people who are scrounging off the state and can afford to run two decent cars and a bigger house than I have, go out drinking 7 nights a week, etc, etc. And I have to figure that they're ripping someone off; I also have to figure that directly or indirectly that person is me. Most people nowadays seem to steal whatever is easy to steal (like music and software), I know of several people who just run up massive debts and declare bankrupcy every couple of years, others make a living out of insurance claims and yet more claim state benefits that they're not entitled to. And who pays for this? The companies they're ripping off? No. It's the honest consumer. We pay more for CDs and software because of piracy, we pay more for insurance to cover the payments, we certainly pay our taxes to cover benefit fraud, and we surely pay more charges at the bank to pay off other people's bad debts. :mad: So I can't help but wonder, why do I bother? I can't go to a car dealer and say "I have plenty of moral high ground, what kind of car can I have?". I sure don't sleep any better at night. I don't believe in God, so there's no big payoff coming in the afterlife. So why don't I go around and "play the game" much like everyone else does? Sure the world would be a better place if everyone led a moral life, but they don't and there's very little incentive for people to do so. I doubt I'm going to suddenly change, take copies of all my CDs and sell the originals, buy a scam satellite TV decoder card, start copying software, go looking around for ways to injure myself for money, claim the dole, etc. But I sure would appreciate it if someone would explain to me why I shouldn't? Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
                              Racing around to come up behind you again
                              The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
                              Shorter of breath, one day closer to death                               - Pink Floyd, Time

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                              KaRl
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #23

                              You could say the same thing about taxes. Would they be so high if some didn't try to cheat? I agree with you, honesty doesn't pay, on the contrary, it's might be the best way to get in troubles. However, I hope it doesn't pay only on this World As you know, what really matters for me on this point is my own conscience. I don't give a fark when people call me stupid.

                              Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

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                              • P Paul Riley

                                Here I am, a generally honest person, I buy what music and software I want, I pay my bills (not always on time, but I pay them), I don't rip people off, I earn an honest (and considerably above average) wage and spend it as I please. And yet my car is falling apart and to get a new one I have to look at some serious refinancing. I'm not short of money, but I can't afford to just throw away an extra couple of hundred notes a month without giving something else up. And then I look around at people who are scrounging off the state and can afford to run two decent cars and a bigger house than I have, go out drinking 7 nights a week, etc, etc. And I have to figure that they're ripping someone off; I also have to figure that directly or indirectly that person is me. Most people nowadays seem to steal whatever is easy to steal (like music and software), I know of several people who just run up massive debts and declare bankrupcy every couple of years, others make a living out of insurance claims and yet more claim state benefits that they're not entitled to. And who pays for this? The companies they're ripping off? No. It's the honest consumer. We pay more for CDs and software because of piracy, we pay more for insurance to cover the payments, we certainly pay our taxes to cover benefit fraud, and we surely pay more charges at the bank to pay off other people's bad debts. :mad: So I can't help but wonder, why do I bother? I can't go to a car dealer and say "I have plenty of moral high ground, what kind of car can I have?". I sure don't sleep any better at night. I don't believe in God, so there's no big payoff coming in the afterlife. So why don't I go around and "play the game" much like everyone else does? Sure the world would be a better place if everyone led a moral life, but they don't and there's very little incentive for people to do so. I doubt I'm going to suddenly change, take copies of all my CDs and sell the originals, buy a scam satellite TV decoder card, start copying software, go looking around for ways to injure myself for money, claim the dole, etc. But I sure would appreciate it if someone would explain to me why I shouldn't? Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
                                Racing around to come up behind you again
                                The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
                                Shorter of breath, one day closer to death                                 - Pink Floyd, Time

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                                Roger Wright
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #24

                                Paul Riley wrote: But I sure would appreciate it if someone would explain to me why I shouldn't? I doubt that you can. Once you mature enough as an adult human being, you have adopted a set of personal ethics - an ingrained knowledge of right and wrong - that will dictate your actions until you consciously reevaluate them and deliberately change them. You may from time to time act otherwise, but that nasty little conscience will pester you and keep you awake at night. Those who aren't bothered by wrongful acts have never grown up, or their values have congealed from some amorphous mass of conflicting standards they absorbed in childhood without conscious thought - pity them, but do not envy them. They're condemned to a wandering, unhappy existence... Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
                                Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003

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                                • J Jason Henderson

                                  Paul Riley wrote: I don't believe in God, so there's no big payoff coming in the afterlife. So why don't I go around and "play the game" much like everyone else does? Sure the world would be a better place if everyone led a moral life, but they don't and there's very little incentive for people to do so. What good is morality if there is no God? On whose authority have these morals been established. If it is on the authority of man, then they are worthless. If you don't believe in God then you are just lying to yourself, therefore you may not be as honest as you think. Just my $.02.

                                  Jason Henderson
                                  "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

                                  articles profile

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                                  KaRl
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #25

                                  Are you honest only because you fear a divine punishment :omg: ? I think it's possible to have moral grounds even for non-believers, it just needs to have some respect for the other human beings. ---- Nice quote, I will try to remember it :)

                                  Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

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                                  • R Roger Wright

                                    Paul Riley wrote: But I sure would appreciate it if someone would explain to me why I shouldn't? I doubt that you can. Once you mature enough as an adult human being, you have adopted a set of personal ethics - an ingrained knowledge of right and wrong - that will dictate your actions until you consciously reevaluate them and deliberately change them. You may from time to time act otherwise, but that nasty little conscience will pester you and keep you awake at night. Those who aren't bothered by wrongful acts have never grown up, or their values have congealed from some amorphous mass of conflicting standards they absorbed in childhood without conscious thought - pity them, but do not envy them. They're condemned to a wandering, unhappy existence... Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
                                    Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003

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                                    KaRl
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #26

                                    It's very freudian, indeed. I wondered if I would see the word "Super-ego" somewhere :-D

                                    Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

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                                    • P Paul Riley

                                      Here I am, a generally honest person, I buy what music and software I want, I pay my bills (not always on time, but I pay them), I don't rip people off, I earn an honest (and considerably above average) wage and spend it as I please. And yet my car is falling apart and to get a new one I have to look at some serious refinancing. I'm not short of money, but I can't afford to just throw away an extra couple of hundred notes a month without giving something else up. And then I look around at people who are scrounging off the state and can afford to run two decent cars and a bigger house than I have, go out drinking 7 nights a week, etc, etc. And I have to figure that they're ripping someone off; I also have to figure that directly or indirectly that person is me. Most people nowadays seem to steal whatever is easy to steal (like music and software), I know of several people who just run up massive debts and declare bankrupcy every couple of years, others make a living out of insurance claims and yet more claim state benefits that they're not entitled to. And who pays for this? The companies they're ripping off? No. It's the honest consumer. We pay more for CDs and software because of piracy, we pay more for insurance to cover the payments, we certainly pay our taxes to cover benefit fraud, and we surely pay more charges at the bank to pay off other people's bad debts. :mad: So I can't help but wonder, why do I bother? I can't go to a car dealer and say "I have plenty of moral high ground, what kind of car can I have?". I sure don't sleep any better at night. I don't believe in God, so there's no big payoff coming in the afterlife. So why don't I go around and "play the game" much like everyone else does? Sure the world would be a better place if everyone led a moral life, but they don't and there's very little incentive for people to do so. I doubt I'm going to suddenly change, take copies of all my CDs and sell the originals, buy a scam satellite TV decoder card, start copying software, go looking around for ways to injure myself for money, claim the dole, etc. But I sure would appreciate it if someone would explain to me why I shouldn't? Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
                                      Racing around to come up behind you again
                                      The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
                                      Shorter of breath, one day closer to death                                       - Pink Floyd, Time

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                                      Chris Losinger
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #27

                                      Paul Riley wrote: We pay more for CDs and software because of piracy or because of something equally as illegal: collusion and price fixing. http://www.musiccdsettlement.com/english/default.htm[^] but, yeah. it's a losing game, being the honest one. i highly recommend The Origins of Virtue, (Human Instincts and the Evolution of Cooperation), by Matt Ridley. It's a nice introduction to game theory, which is exactly what you're describing: honesty often does not pay in the short run, because it's often so easy to cheat and get away with it. -c

                                      Get there first with something patented, proprietary, and broken, then send lawyers after anyone who points out problems. --- Peter Gutmann

                                      Fractals

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                                      • K KaRl

                                        You could say the same thing about taxes. Would they be so high if some didn't try to cheat? I agree with you, honesty doesn't pay, on the contrary, it's might be the best way to get in troubles. However, I hope it doesn't pay only on this World As you know, what really matters for me on this point is my own conscience. I don't give a fark when people call me stupid.

                                        Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

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                                        Paul Riley
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #28

                                        KaЯl wrote: As you know, what really matters for me on this point is my own conscience. I don't give a fark when people call me stupid. See, I would say that I only give a fark (love that word) when I start actually feeling stupid, like when being the good guy (or at least trying)doesn't buy me one of those lovely new Land Rovers. :-D But I'm feeling a lot better about it now, thanks to everyone in this conversation [even Jason! :laugh:]. It's not often I look online for advise or reassurance from people that barely know me really but I did feel shitty this morning. Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
                                        Racing around to come up behind you again
                                        The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
                                        Shorter of breath, one day closer to death                                         - Pink Floyd, Time

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                                        • R Roger Wright

                                          Paul Riley wrote: But I sure would appreciate it if someone would explain to me why I shouldn't? I doubt that you can. Once you mature enough as an adult human being, you have adopted a set of personal ethics - an ingrained knowledge of right and wrong - that will dictate your actions until you consciously reevaluate them and deliberately change them. You may from time to time act otherwise, but that nasty little conscience will pester you and keep you awake at night. Those who aren't bothered by wrongful acts have never grown up, or their values have congealed from some amorphous mass of conflicting standards they absorbed in childhood without conscious thought - pity them, but do not envy them. They're condemned to a wandering, unhappy existence... Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
                                          Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003

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                                          Paul Riley
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #29

                                          Roger Wright wrote: I doubt that you can. Once you mature enough as an adult human being, you have adopted a set of personal ethics - an ingrained knowledge of right and wrong - that will dictate your actions until you consciously reevaluate them and deliberately change them. Bingo! Right on the mark, Roger. Nothing I can do will convince me that thinking only of myself is a good thing. Therefore I'd (a) not be able to live with myself and (b) probably get caught doing something wrong. Guess I'd better deal with that, huh? :-D Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
                                          Racing around to come up behind you again
                                          The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
                                          Shorter of breath, one day closer to death                                           - Pink Floyd, Time

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