Alumni discrimination
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I am very sure in my statement. Some of my acquaintances had similar experience. If they want only employees from particular Alma mater, why don't they bluntly state that in the job advertisement (as some do)? It would save us time (and money).
Oshtri Deka wrote:
Some of my acquaintances had similar experience
This is hardly empirical. It's easier to blame something like that than it is to actually analyse how your interview went. Being blunt, I suspect you and your acquaintances lost the interview for other reasons. It's time to face the harsh reality that there is something you need to change.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
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I am very sure in my statement. Some of my acquaintances had similar experience. If they want only employees from particular Alma mater, why don't they bluntly state that in the job advertisement (as some do)? It would save us time (and money).
Because they're not allowed to say that. Universities should be a factor in valuing someone's degree – whether you like it or not, a degree from Harvard, St. Andrews or Cambridge is worth more than one from the local poly or community college, and I'm sure the equivalent is true in your home country as well. But they should never be a blocking factor: if you can show that you are as good as people with the paper from the approved universities, then you should get a chance. Working on an open source project, publishing articles, presenting material at meetings or conferences ... all of these will give you an extra advantage on your CV. The first two cost nothing but time if you publish on a free site like this one. Edit: also, if you got to interview, it is extremely unlikely that the company had already decided not to hire you. Interviews cost a company quite a lot, as they have to spend many hours of admin and supervision time to prepare for the interview and manage you on the day.
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Hoo boy. This is a debate that Keith B and I need to keep out of then based on our old "Alma Maters".
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
Not really: I took a PGCE from Sunderland Scumberland, and despite disliking Teeside as a place, the IT degrees there are good. A friend of mine (Neil Duffy) read a Comp Sci degree there. My undergrad's degree (Chemistry) was appalling at Durham, and this was approximately 50% of the reason it ended up as a such train-wreck. I was encouraged to go to York by my school instead, I wish I'd done that, or read either Physics, Maths or Comp. Sci from the outset. The main reason I read Comp Sci at Newcastle was to keep costs down, and Northumbria at the time only head DB-heavy master's conversion courses, a BSc at either would have cost too much. Being a Durham graduate, naturally I also interviewed for Oxford. I passed the entrance papers comfortably, was considered one of the cleverest in my school at A-Level (and that was the RGS), in the school I took my GCSEs at I was told I was in the top three pupils they'd ever had (though they educated Chris Waddle, so there wasn't much competition).* Every single university I applied to lowered their grade-offer. I hauled up at the Oxford interview, said hello and knew I was FCUKed the moment one of the interviewers heard my (then heavy) Geordie accent and his face hit the floor. Yay the British class-system. *These were other people's opinions of me, I really didn't see it that way and certainly don't now. [Edit] Gave the UoS it's proper title.
Sort of a cross between Lawrence of Arabia and Dilbert.[^]
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A Dead ringer for Kate Winslett[^] -
I can't prove it, but there is a pattern and it makes me angry and disappointed. I haven't finished particular college and I am kind of screwed. I have skills and experience, but I have diploma from less prestigious institution. Most of the time I end up in selected few and interviewers always give me positive (and rather direct) response, but in the end it seams like school crest is what matters! Sometimes my skills and experience is completely ignored and on a base of prejudice I feel like I am labeled as dilettante or worse... It is hard to express the bad taste I have in my mouth. X|
In the UK it matters not one jot which school you go to. This means that any boy (or girl) whatever her background can dream of one day becoming Archbishop of Canterbury, or Prime Minister, or Mayor of London, or maybe, even, one day King.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends. Shed Petition[^]
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In the UK it matters not one jot which school you go to. This means that any boy (or girl) whatever her background can dream of one day becoming Archbishop of Canterbury, or Prime Minister, or Mayor of London, or maybe, even, one day King.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends. Shed Petition[^]
I was going to reply to Harold "Now that's sarcasm" but it turns out his post was only the foothills of sarcasm.
Sort of a cross between Lawrence of Arabia and Dilbert.[^]
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A Dead ringer for Kate Winslett[^] -
In the UK it matters not one jot which school you go to. This means that any boy (or girl) whatever her background can dream of one day becoming Archbishop of Canterbury, or Prime Minister, or Mayor of London, or maybe, even, one day King.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends. Shed Petition[^]
So we can one day hope for His Royal Holiness Boris Johnson PM. I quiver with anticipation at the thought of the end of the tale of the East End Barrow Boy who "Done good".
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
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I can't prove it, but there is a pattern and it makes me angry and disappointed. I haven't finished particular college and I am kind of screwed. I have skills and experience, but I have diploma from less prestigious institution. Most of the time I end up in selected few and interviewers always give me positive (and rather direct) response, but in the end it seams like school crest is what matters! Sometimes my skills and experience is completely ignored and on a base of prejudice I feel like I am labeled as dilettante or worse... It is hard to express the bad taste I have in my mouth. X|
School DOES matter. Not sure why you would think otherwise. If it didn't everyone would find the easiest online school and crank through as many degrees as they could. Then it would simply be about how many pointless degrees from the pointless school did you get. I started out at a smaller school. With in one a year and a half my adviser was telling me to slow down on core courses or I would have nothing left my senior year. RED FLAG. I left my meeting with my adviser and applied to the main state Uni. While I had to bust my butt when I got to there I understood why. There are a lot of smart people out there. Its a competitive world and top notch schools are a way to weed out the average and under performers. If you think you can cut it go back and get an MS from a better school. I know many people that started out in smaller schools but then got MS from a much better one. It does wonders for your resume and it will also show you why those that did it have the right to the job first.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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Oshtri Deka wrote:
Some of my acquaintances had similar experience
This is hardly empirical. It's easier to blame something like that than it is to actually analyse how your interview went. Being blunt, I suspect you and your acquaintances lost the interview for other reasons. It's time to face the harsh reality that there is something you need to change.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
This is hardly empirical
These are some of the situations which have made me suspicious: Situation 1: I have passed all eliminations at respected firm, I've even got the privilege to have chief engineer on my interview and everything seamed perfect, we agreed upon wage, probation period etc. Within I one week they asked for another meeting. Ok, I thought, but at meeting PR manager and my potential team leader told me that he (team leader) has invoked his discretionary to pick another candidate. What the heck?! They could have sent e-mail or ring me. Situation 2: I've made it to the interview, again everything seamed nice. Interviewers were pleasant and opened, but at the end with chosen words they have said they prefer candidates diploma from more respected institution, but they can offer me position with smaller salary. Situation 3: Respected multinational company, local chief engineer was conducting interview. At the end he told me I am in top 5 (I am programmer with background in electrical engineering and automation), but he prefers another candidate. He told me they will keep my CV in their database and I could get another chance as they plan to hire more programmers in near future. He was promoted and his substitute (he is about my age and we share some acquaintances) decided they will hire only people by recommendation or graduates from particular college.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
It's time to face the harsh reality that there is something you need to change.
I've never said I was perfect.
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I can't prove it, but there is a pattern and it makes me angry and disappointed. I haven't finished particular college and I am kind of screwed. I have skills and experience, but I have diploma from less prestigious institution. Most of the time I end up in selected few and interviewers always give me positive (and rather direct) response, but in the end it seams like school crest is what matters! Sometimes my skills and experience is completely ignored and on a base of prejudice I feel like I am labeled as dilettante or worse... It is hard to express the bad taste I have in my mouth. X|
In my experience (in the US), the school you graduated from matters to many companies, at least when they consider more junior engineers. Sometimes a company is enamored with a certain school's reputation, but more frequently it is simply their experience that they tend to get good people from a certain school so they stick with it. - My observation is that bigger companies tend to be more school-prejudiced than small ones. - Simply being further from your school may help. If they do not know your school, they cannot be prejudiced against it. - Try turning this to your advantage. Seek out a company where graduates from your school already work. Your degree will be a known and respected quantity there. Many schools have alumni offices which can help. As you get later in your career, your experience (and reputation) matters more and your school matters less. I hope that helps. Edit: Colin's suggestion of getting a master's degree (preferably from a more favored school)is an excellent one. Your most advanced degree tends to matter a lot more than the earlier ones.
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
This is hardly empirical
These are some of the situations which have made me suspicious: Situation 1: I have passed all eliminations at respected firm, I've even got the privilege to have chief engineer on my interview and everything seamed perfect, we agreed upon wage, probation period etc. Within I one week they asked for another meeting. Ok, I thought, but at meeting PR manager and my potential team leader told me that he (team leader) has invoked his discretionary to pick another candidate. What the heck?! They could have sent e-mail or ring me. Situation 2: I've made it to the interview, again everything seamed nice. Interviewers were pleasant and opened, but at the end with chosen words they have said they prefer candidates diploma from more respected institution, but they can offer me position with smaller salary. Situation 3: Respected multinational company, local chief engineer was conducting interview. At the end he told me I am in top 5 (I am programmer with background in electrical engineering and automation), but he prefers another candidate. He told me they will keep my CV in their database and I could get another chance as they plan to hire more programmers in near future. He was promoted and his substitute (he is about my age and we share some acquaintances) decided they will hire only people by recommendation or graduates from particular college.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
It's time to face the harsh reality that there is something you need to change.
I've never said I was perfect.
Where you have failed to get a position, it doesn't hurt to send an email thanking them for taking the time to interview you, and politely request details of what let you down in the interview. I've had people approach me for this, and most of the time I've chosen someone else just because they were better qualified for the position, or it seemed they would fit the team structure better. I've never minded answering these questions, and it can't hurt you.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
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Where you have failed to get a position, it doesn't hurt to send an email thanking them for taking the time to interview you, and politely request details of what let you down in the interview. I've had people approach me for this, and most of the time I've chosen someone else just because they were better qualified for the position, or it seemed they would fit the team structure better. I've never minded answering these questions, and it can't hurt you.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
That is good advice, but unfortunately many of them aren't polite as you are. :( Not answering is another flaw I hate, but I can only shake my head.
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I can't prove it, but there is a pattern and it makes me angry and disappointed. I haven't finished particular college and I am kind of screwed. I have skills and experience, but I have diploma from less prestigious institution. Most of the time I end up in selected few and interviewers always give me positive (and rather direct) response, but in the end it seams like school crest is what matters! Sometimes my skills and experience is completely ignored and on a base of prejudice I feel like I am labeled as dilettante or worse... It is hard to express the bad taste I have in my mouth. X|
I've been there. I don't have an engineering or CS degree even. I'm a senior dev now. I had to prove myself at my first job and take on as much development tasks I could. Your experience will quickly outweigh your crest after a few years. Just try to get a job where you can kick ass. Places like Google and Facebook probably still won't interview me from lack of degree, but I probably make as much as I would there. Best of luck.
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In my experience (in the US), the school you graduated from matters to many companies, at least when they consider more junior engineers. Sometimes a company is enamored with a certain school's reputation, but more frequently it is simply their experience that they tend to get good people from a certain school so they stick with it. - My observation is that bigger companies tend to be more school-prejudiced than small ones. - Simply being further from your school may help. If they do not know your school, they cannot be prejudiced against it. - Try turning this to your advantage. Seek out a company where graduates from your school already work. Your degree will be a known and respected quantity there. Many schools have alumni offices which can help. As you get later in your career, your experience (and reputation) matters more and your school matters less. I hope that helps. Edit: Colin's suggestion of getting a master's degree (preferably from a more favored school)is an excellent one. Your most advanced degree tends to matter a lot more than the earlier ones.
Roy from Detroit wrote:
Seek out a company where graduates from your school already work. Your degree will be a known and respected quantity there
Where I live this can actually and probably work the opposite... People from the damn diploma mill where I went are by and large incompetent fools(that passed due to said school being a diploma mill) who ruin the schools reputation and make it harder for me. I certainly have to prove that I'm not one of those aforementioned fools. Not disagreeing with what you said by any means, just offering another side to it as well that you have to watch out for.
Beauty is in the eye of the beer-holder Be careful which toes you step on today, they might be connected to the foot that kicks your butt tomorrow. You can't scare me, I have children.
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I've been there. I don't have an engineering or CS degree even. I'm a senior dev now. I had to prove myself at my first job and take on as much development tasks I could. Your experience will quickly outweigh your crest after a few years. Just try to get a job where you can kick ass. Places like Google and Facebook probably still won't interview me from lack of degree, but I probably make as much as I would there. Best of luck.
One of the most effective programmers I have worked with had a Geology degree. Some of the best code I have worked on was a huge software package written by a guy with a degree in Physics and no CS training at all. He sometimes did really strange things...but I typically come to value those as learning experiences. In some ways, learning the "proper" way to code things can be limiting. Lacking training, this guy would find ways to twist the language to get problems solved using language features which would never have occured to a CS grad. His code ended up being quite elegant.
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Because they're not allowed to say that. Universities should be a factor in valuing someone's degree – whether you like it or not, a degree from Harvard, St. Andrews or Cambridge is worth more than one from the local poly or community college, and I'm sure the equivalent is true in your home country as well. But they should never be a blocking factor: if you can show that you are as good as people with the paper from the approved universities, then you should get a chance. Working on an open source project, publishing articles, presenting material at meetings or conferences ... all of these will give you an extra advantage on your CV. The first two cost nothing but time if you publish on a free site like this one. Edit: also, if you got to interview, it is extremely unlikely that the company had already decided not to hire you. Interviews cost a company quite a lot, as they have to spend many hours of admin and supervision time to prepare for the interview and manage you on the day.
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I can't prove it, but there is a pattern and it makes me angry and disappointed. I haven't finished particular college and I am kind of screwed. I have skills and experience, but I have diploma from less prestigious institution. Most of the time I end up in selected few and interviewers always give me positive (and rather direct) response, but in the end it seams like school crest is what matters! Sometimes my skills and experience is completely ignored and on a base of prejudice I feel like I am labeled as dilettante or worse... It is hard to express the bad taste I have in my mouth. X|
Oshtri Deka wrote:
but in the end it seams like school crest is what matters!
Could be a cultural thing either where you live or the business domain(s) that you are seeking out. If so you choices are - Find a different culture/domain - Get the degree - Take a less position with the hope that you can move up. Last is risky since companies could explicitly require credentials even within the company to move up.