Learning on your own or formal training?
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I laughed, then it hit me, I might also get a bit creative sometimes
Creative + documented understandably = good code It's when the second operand is missing that there are problems.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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I find that 90% of the useful knowledge I have came from hours of coding on my own and the community. The other 10% aka my degree just gets me through the door in some cases and allows me to punctuate my documentation. Why go to school, teach the next generation to code? :thumbsup: or :thumbsdown:
Formal training is an absolute must. It will teach you things you cannot discover on your own just because you have no idea they exist. It is a shortcut to grow by twenty years in six months. I received good training on topics like algorithmics, formal proofs, numerical analysis, mathematical programming, concurrent systems, language parsing... I had no idea I needed to know about that. If you stick to standard programmer experience, all you'll get is the "culture" embedded in User's Manuals and other Cookbooks.
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Formal training is an absolute must. It will teach you things you cannot discover on your own just because you have no idea they exist. It is a shortcut to grow by twenty years in six months. I received good training on topics like algorithmics, formal proofs, numerical analysis, mathematical programming, concurrent systems, language parsing... I had no idea I needed to know about that. If you stick to standard programmer experience, all you'll get is the "culture" embedded in User's Manuals and other Cookbooks.
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Formal learning gives you the techniques and foundation of knowledge that you need in order to learn efficiently on your own. And yeah, it also gets you a box ticked on the CV which gives you a chance to prove yourself. But I think the value of formal education is significantly more than that piece of paper; it teaches you how learning works, so when you are investigating things on your own, you have some structure to tie it to. And if you've done a course in something that's directly relevant, it also gives you the base layer which is really hard to pick up from nothing.
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that's bullshit. only in specialized fields you'd need the math/algo and most other shit they teaches you in *academia* is waste of time ...and yea I learn how to learn and think *myself*, school didn't teach me that
dev
We obviously had different experiences
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i don't think school teaches me how to learn, think and analyze, that's just bullshit they say when they have nothing real to justify tuition fee (now depending on your field of specialty, some math/algo can be valuable) sorry i sound pragmatic
dev
IMO it all depends on the teacher. Putting all teachers in the same pot based on the few examples you got to know is IMO not pragmatic. Sort of catch-all exception handling ...
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Ok, maybe it does a bit more but i have seen some amazing guys in the last few years who dropped out of college and are doing awesome
Mathlab wrote:
... i have seen some amazing guys in the last few years who dropped out of college and are doing awesome
... but then again, maybe for them the proportion is different, and maybe they invested time in learning formally on their own.
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Creative + documented understandably = good code It's when the second operand is missing that there are problems.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Idunno ... there's a saying: "boring code is good code" (not sure if it didn't originate with Joel Spolsky). Thing is, nobody has problems understanding boring code, and since you mostly read code (or javadoc - I prefer code), "creative" code, even if understandable, may be difficult to comprehend, increasing its TCO. Now, with architecture, it's an entirely different story. To be creative when architecting a new app means (for me) finding a basic structure for the application which should allow developing all parts in a highly decoupled way, communicating via a few, well defined and narrow interfaces, so that each part does just one thing and is therefore easily comprehensible - find a project setup which works well for every feature of the application but also makes reading and understanding code easy. While it doesn't sound too creative, it must be something difficult, since I've seen so many applications which lack this basic, central, spinal bone like abstraction, and are just a heap of heterogeneous parts which communicate via ad-hoc interfaces. That's not creative and not useful, that's just bureaucracy applied to software design. And, to get back to the original subject, that's where IMO it makes most sense investing in self-training - IME very few people in academia are really concerned with this issue, so while your formal training might give you strong basic knowledge about algorithms and data structures, IME most CS graduates don't even know who Christopher Alexander was, and using design patterns in a sensible way is something they haven't grasped yet, even if it was thaught to them. OTOH, training yourself in algorithms and data structures, while possible, isn't something I've seen many people do.
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that's bullshit. only in specialized fields you'd need the math/algo and most other shit they teaches you in *academia* is waste of time ...and yea I learn how to learn and think *myself*, school didn't teach me that
dev
devvvy wrote:
only in specialized fields you'd need the math/algo
That's BS. You probably don't feel like you could use it because it wasn't taught to you the proper way. The difference between knowing your formal stuff or not knowing it is a difference in app speed, code size, development speed and maintenance cost of maybe one order of magnitude, over the lifetime of an application. If you're not developing one-off, 200 lines of code apps. As for your self-taught thinking skills, I think there's a flaw there: you obviously didn't teach yourself that other people might actually know what they're talking about, and also that there's always some more to learn.
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I find that 90% of the useful knowledge I have came from hours of coding on my own and the community. The other 10% aka my degree just gets me through the door in some cases and allows me to punctuate my documentation. Why go to school, teach the next generation to code? :thumbsup: or :thumbsdown:
Formal training prepares you to deal with BS
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I find that 90% of the useful knowledge I have came from hours of coding on my own and the community. The other 10% aka my degree just gets me through the door in some cases and allows me to punctuate my documentation. Why go to school, teach the next generation to code? :thumbsup: or :thumbsdown:
Formal training prepares you to deal with BS
Please God Let It work this time. Don't Crash, Don't Crash... Ah Dang....
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I find that 90% of the useful knowledge I have came from hours of coding on my own and the community. The other 10% aka my degree just gets me through the door in some cases and allows me to punctuate my documentation. Why go to school, teach the next generation to code? :thumbsup: or :thumbsdown:
If I may, you are offering a false choice. I presume that some of your ability to analyse (think if you will) comes from your experiences during your "formal training". I do not have a college degree, but have been a programmer for more than 3 decades. Still I have had a great deal of training in the form of my interactions with other programmers, the books and papers that I have read. I am skilled at learning on my own direction. Perhaps you are as well. Others find the rigor and direction of classroom education to be helpful. This is a question of temperament, not intelligence. It is true that college is no magic incantation. I have know no small number of college graduates who could not program their way out of a paper bag. Still I have know many others who showed reasonable skills and competence with only their college eduction. I am unsure what your point is? Are you attempting to say that you waisted your time at University? Perhaps, but I doubt it. Everyone grows through experience. Are you suggesting that college is not the best way to train people how to program? I am inclined to agree. I believe programming is more craft than science. As such I believe that it must be taught like other crafts. You can learn the techniques of painting or music from a class, but to become "good" at it take experience and the guidance of someone who has more skill. The master journeyman approach that is used to teach carpenters and masons may be more appropriate to software development then University. Perhaps your post is a result of your realization that you have more to learn. If so, congratulations. Programming (like so many professions) requires continuous education.
Tanks for your support
Pat O
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I find that 90% of the useful knowledge I have came from hours of coding on my own and the community. The other 10% aka my degree just gets me through the door in some cases and allows me to punctuate my documentation. Why go to school, teach the next generation to code? :thumbsup: or :thumbsdown:
I started coding before I went to college, so most of my knowledge I learned on my own through books. I later gained experience by working on real projects for companies that hired me because of my college. But, many people only start coding in college and the college education gives them a kick start so they know how to begin. I did learn stuff from college, but I can say that I could have gone past it if it weren't for the fact that the college opened the doors for me to get into a company.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson ---- Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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I find that 90% of the useful knowledge I have came from hours of coding on my own and the community. The other 10% aka my degree just gets me through the door in some cases and allows me to punctuate my documentation. Why go to school, teach the next generation to code? :thumbsup: or :thumbsdown:
I did it the wrong way round: first learning by doing (Self taught followed by 3 years work experience) then going to university. This has shown me that, in my case at least, I would have missed little to nothing by not having formal training. But as you say people just feel safer hiring you if you have some qualification.
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devvvy wrote:
only in specialized fields you'd need the math/algo
That's BS. You probably don't feel like you could use it because it wasn't taught to you the proper way. The difference between knowing your formal stuff or not knowing it is a difference in app speed, code size, development speed and maintenance cost of maybe one order of magnitude, over the lifetime of an application. If you're not developing one-off, 200 lines of code apps. As for your self-taught thinking skills, I think there's a flaw there: you obviously didn't teach yourself that other people might actually know what they're talking about, and also that there's always some more to learn.
Agreed! Although I learned on my own most of what I actually used in my daily job, college education opened my mind to a lot of things that might exist out there. It also made my mind sharp with the intensive math education. College education also added a great value on fields I don't really use every time but may come in handy at any moment. In the end it turned my world broader and as you also said yourself, there is also some more to learn.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson ---- Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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I find that 90% of the useful knowledge I have came from hours of coding on my own and the community. The other 10% aka my degree just gets me through the door in some cases and allows me to punctuate my documentation. Why go to school, teach the next generation to code? :thumbsup: or :thumbsdown:
Getting a formal education is more than learning specific skills - it is also learning the structure and "short hand language" of your field and getting a broad exposure to aspects that may not be applicable to your current interest, but may be useful later. A formal education will also hopefully instill the ability to speak and write in a cogent fashion (with a minimum of "geek") when communicating with non technical people. Would you entrust a project to someone who's proposal is filled with miss-spellings and grammatical errors? I have met a number of smart, self taught people that had no chance of advancement because they lacked the skills needed to communicate with the next level of management or customers. A final argument for checking the formal education box is that most large organisations plus any (large or small) that do government contracting use it as an initial screen. No degree, no job.
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I find that 90% of the useful knowledge I have came from hours of coding on my own and the community. The other 10% aka my degree just gets me through the door in some cases and allows me to punctuate my documentation. Why go to school, teach the next generation to code? :thumbsup: or :thumbsdown:
(This rant is not directed you more just the general class of people with this opinion. If you are offended then maybe it is directed at you.) You didn't learn anything else in college? You didn't read one great book or have an thought-provoking philosophical discussion? You didn't make great friends who you keep in touch with today? You didn't encounter one professor who pushed you to think beyond what you thought you could do? You didn't nearly cause yourself serious harm with a physics experiment gone awry? You never kissed a girl in a remote section of the library? And in that same library you didn't pick up a random book and learn about architecture even though it is not directly germane to coding? You didn't attend lectures on neural-networks and AI far beyond your own skills just for the experience of it? You never had one sensation of pride when your school's teams won? You didn't have one experience in 4 years that made you consider that going to college is more than just being "trained" to do some task? To me this question is usually asked by those who are in too much debt. It could also be you think of yourself as an autodidact and don't need help from other people. Maybe this is even the case. Perhaps you are the best coder in the world but you sound like a boring jackass.
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I find that 90% of the useful knowledge I have came from hours of coding on my own and the community. The other 10% aka my degree just gets me through the door in some cases and allows me to punctuate my documentation. Why go to school, teach the next generation to code? :thumbsup: or :thumbsdown:
Programming is just about the only profession in which you can teach yourself, prove your ability and be allowed to practiice. I think there are two reasons for this: Only ability gets the job done. Unlike the people around you, computer logic will not bend to meet your will out of fear or pity. Most software is not life critical and is well disclaimed so there is less risk of expensive lawsuits based on someone taking a key role without formal 'proof' of their competance.
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I find that 90% of the useful knowledge I have came from hours of coding on my own and the community. The other 10% aka my degree just gets me through the door in some cases and allows me to punctuate my documentation. Why go to school, teach the next generation to code? :thumbsup: or :thumbsdown:
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IMO it all depends on the teacher. Putting all teachers in the same pot based on the few examples you got to know is IMO not pragmatic. Sort of catch-all exception handling ...
Florin Jurcovici wrote:
Putting all teachers in the same pot based on the few examples you got to know is IMO not pragmatic. Sort of catch-all exception handling ...
However, by definition, most teachers are average. And it also ignores the fact that for every student exposed to an excellent teacher another is exposed to a sub-standard one.