Video games as art
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I agree that it's art. Some of the scenery and the characters are truly amazing. To be able to conceptualize it and draw/paint it, I definitely couldn't do. On the other hand my son is going to Full Sail in Orlando, FL and getting a degree in Game Art. He has a eye for that type of stuff. He definitely didn't get that talent from me.
If you can’t have fun at work, then why go to work?
Could I suggest that we consider the technical aspects as art as well? A game like tetris is not great in visual stuff, but it's an art to take something that simple and make it as successful as tetris is (dunno how financially successful it is though). The 'user satisfaction' levels of tetris / pacman / etc is also so unexpected I would like to suggest that it is an art.
____________________________________________________________ Be brave little warrior, be VERY brave
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Accolades don't make it art. My Cousin Vinny won an Oscar (best supporting actress). My Cousin Vinny is not art. Crash and Chicago won best motion pictures. Not art. Anyways, I think the just picked "cool" games. I was not blown away or even really absorbed in the story line of Portal to be honest. It was short, cool, fun, but not art.
As the germans say: "Kunst liegt im Auge des Betrachters" means, art lies in the eye of the spectator. There are many many forms of art. I personally think every code we write is a form of art. It all depends of your point of view. What for you is art for others may just be a waste of time and otherwise. I personally would not say that this LINK[^] is art...looks like somebody vomited on it.
Hmm i wonder why its doing that......ARGHS NO STOP, ROLLBACK ROLLBACK...F*** That's how i learned to "Always Backup"!! Dogs are man's best Friend, Cats are man's adorable little serial killer
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MoMA (The Museum of Modern Art) in New York City has decided that video games are art, and they are opening an exhibit this spring dedicated to this newly declared art. So far they have acquired 14 games for the exhibit. What say you CP? Clickety[^]
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
Definitely Art: Bethesda´s Elder Scrolls (when it come´s to it´s Online Version which will be launched sometime next year, then it will become something above Art...I guess it becomes divine...!!!) Myst and it´s Sequel Riven was my 2nd thought, et voilà, Myst is already in the list :cool:
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MoMA (The Museum of Modern Art) in New York City has decided that video games are art, and they are opening an exhibit this spring dedicated to this newly declared art. So far they have acquired 14 games for the exhibit. What say you CP? Clickety[^]
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
Art is whatever you can get away with.
"Microsoft -- Adding unnecessary complexity to your work since 1987!"
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MoMA (The Museum of Modern Art) in New York City has decided that video games are art, and they are opening an exhibit this spring dedicated to this newly declared art. So far they have acquired 14 games for the exhibit. What say you CP? Clickety[^]
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
Interesting. I've been an avid gamer for a long time and I've been waiting for games to come along that are truly works of art. I'm still waiting, gaming doesn't have its Citizen Kane yet. Not for lack of quality, games have become really amazing, but the focus is on commercial entertainment rather than art. Most games are like summer blockbuster movies: incredibly well-made and entertaining, but forget about the Oscars. I think that the main problem is the writing, games tend to focus on gameplay (naturally) and writing is often an afterthought, sometimes with comically bad results. Writing is getting better particularly when it comes to dialog (the Uncharted series is a good example), but it's still more like good hack writing for a blockbuster movie, not serious art. Game studios are starting to take the writing and voice acting seriously, so at least we're getting beyond the stage of having a plot thrown together by designers and programmers with no writing background, and voice-acted by whoever is in the office. Pros are starting to be used these days, but it's mostly hack work, because using professional writers and actors is expensive and the safest way to get a return is to make the equivalent of a summer action flick. I think that games are getting there, but the writing needs to evolve before they truly become art. Half-Life (by no means an early game) was revolutionary partly because it actually had a plot, that's how much writing has lagged in gaming. There are some well-written games out there, but not so much on the level of literary art. Many aspects of games such as gameplay, visual art, and music are already often on the level of serious art, but before games as a whole become an art form the writing needs to catch up.
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Art is whatever you can get away with.
"Microsoft -- Adding unnecessary complexity to your work since 1987!"
Alan Balkany wrote:
Art is whatever you can get away with.
Does that mean all artists are thieves? What about art thieves? ;P
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
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MoMA (The Museum of Modern Art) in New York City has decided that video games are art, and they are opening an exhibit this spring dedicated to this newly declared art. So far they have acquired 14 games for the exhibit. What say you CP? Clickety[^]
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
All i have to say is that if Warhol was alive, he would be there.
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
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All i have to say is that if Warhol was alive, he would be there.
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
:thumbsup:
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
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Interesting. I've been an avid gamer for a long time and I've been waiting for games to come along that are truly works of art. I'm still waiting, gaming doesn't have its Citizen Kane yet. Not for lack of quality, games have become really amazing, but the focus is on commercial entertainment rather than art. Most games are like summer blockbuster movies: incredibly well-made and entertaining, but forget about the Oscars. I think that the main problem is the writing, games tend to focus on gameplay (naturally) and writing is often an afterthought, sometimes with comically bad results. Writing is getting better particularly when it comes to dialog (the Uncharted series is a good example), but it's still more like good hack writing for a blockbuster movie, not serious art. Game studios are starting to take the writing and voice acting seriously, so at least we're getting beyond the stage of having a plot thrown together by designers and programmers with no writing background, and voice-acted by whoever is in the office. Pros are starting to be used these days, but it's mostly hack work, because using professional writers and actors is expensive and the safest way to get a return is to make the equivalent of a summer action flick. I think that games are getting there, but the writing needs to evolve before they truly become art. Half-Life (by no means an early game) was revolutionary partly because it actually had a plot, that's how much writing has lagged in gaming. There are some well-written games out there, but not so much on the level of literary art. Many aspects of games such as gameplay, visual art, and music are already often on the level of serious art, but before games as a whole become an art form the writing needs to catch up.
While I agree with most of what you said, the problem is that you are comparing two completely different mediums. A great movie, such as The Godfather or It's a Wonderful Life, is all about the story and the execution of that story. A great game needs to have so much more than that. To expect them to be able to write and execute stories that are at the same level, but still have all of the other things necessary such as innovative gameplay and graphics, is to expect too much. It would be like comparing some piece of modern art made of wood to a beautiful rocking chair made by a master carpenter. They have similar roots, but the art piece is made for one reason, to look nice. The rocking chair, on the other hand, has to achieve so much more. So yes, it may not look as nice and thought provoking as the piece of art, but that's because it has a different purpose.
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
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While I agree with most of what you said, the problem is that you are comparing two completely different mediums. A great movie, such as The Godfather or It's a Wonderful Life, is all about the story and the execution of that story. A great game needs to have so much more than that. To expect them to be able to write and execute stories that are at the same level, but still have all of the other things necessary such as innovative gameplay and graphics, is to expect too much. It would be like comparing some piece of modern art made of wood to a beautiful rocking chair made by a master carpenter. They have similar roots, but the art piece is made for one reason, to look nice. The rocking chair, on the other hand, has to achieve so much more. So yes, it may not look as nice and thought provoking as the piece of art, but that's because it has a different purpose.
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
I get what you're saying, but I don't think it's too much to expect, though it's certainly a lot to expect. The problem is that storytelling requires a different approach in gaming than in fiction or film making, and the gaming industry is still figuring that out. Mostly they have gone for cinematic storytelling, often at the expense of gameplay. I don't think it's impossible to have great storytelling and gameplay, but that's still evolving. Other aspects of games are on the level of serious art, for example Myst is a collection of very interesting visual art, and American McGee's Alice has music that is on the level of art. I think that writing can get there too, but game studios need to figure out how to do great storytelling in the context of a game; that's something that's still being figured out I think.
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Accolades don't make it art. My Cousin Vinny won an Oscar (best supporting actress). My Cousin Vinny is not art. Crash and Chicago won best motion pictures. Not art. Anyways, I think the just picked "cool" games. I was not blown away or even really absorbed in the story line of Portal to be honest. It was short, cool, fun, but not art.
Although I tend to agree with your "accolades don't make it art" assessment, please keep in mind that your junk may be someone else's "art". I have seen stuff that would make me vomit if it were in my living room, but serious people in the art world have declared it's value. In fact, there are displays of urinals that would qualify in the art world, but not by my definition. From wikipedia: Fountain is a 1917 work widely attributed to Marcel Duchamp. The scandalous work was a porcelain urinal, which was signed "R.Mutt" and titled Fountain. Submitted for the exhibition of the Society of Independent Artists in 1917, Fountain was rejected by the committee, even though the rules stated that all works would be accepted from artists who paid the fee. Fountain was displayed and photographed at Alfred Stieglitz’s studio, and the photo published in The Blind Man, but the original has been lost. The work is regarded by some art historians and theorists of the avant-garde, such as Peter Bürger, as a major landmark in 20th century art. Replicas commissioned by Duchamp in the 1960s are now on display in a number of different museums.
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Although I tend to agree with your "accolades don't make it art" assessment, please keep in mind that your junk may be someone else's "art". I have seen stuff that would make me vomit if it were in my living room, but serious people in the art world have declared it's value. In fact, there are displays of urinals that would qualify in the art world, but not by my definition. From wikipedia: Fountain is a 1917 work widely attributed to Marcel Duchamp. The scandalous work was a porcelain urinal, which was signed "R.Mutt" and titled Fountain. Submitted for the exhibition of the Society of Independent Artists in 1917, Fountain was rejected by the committee, even though the rules stated that all works would be accepted from artists who paid the fee. Fountain was displayed and photographed at Alfred Stieglitz’s studio, and the photo published in The Blind Man, but the original has been lost. The work is regarded by some art historians and theorists of the avant-garde, such as Peter Bürger, as a major landmark in 20th century art. Replicas commissioned by Duchamp in the 1960s are now on display in a number of different museums.
Interesting. You are citing a piece of art that had the sole purpose of not being art! It was a middle finger to the established art community and world at large of the early 20th century. It was one of the first pieces of the Dada movement- an anti art response to the world at the time (Think WWI). I guess the question with Fountain is whether or not you classify anti art, as art. Regardless, if you don't see it as art, then it successfully served its exact purpose.
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Interesting. You are citing a piece of art that had the sole purpose of not being art! It was a middle finger to the established art community and world at large of the early 20th century. It was one of the first pieces of the Dada movement- an anti art response to the world at the time (Think WWI). I guess the question with Fountain is whether or not you classify anti art, as art. Regardless, if you don't see it as art, then it successfully served its exact purpose.
And I did so on purpose. There are many such examples, and not all were designed to display a middle finger. My point was to simply state that art for some is junk for others, and we each end up being a critic for our own tastes. However, to exclude something as being non artistic is to thumb our noses on all those whose opinion differs from our own. I think discussing games (or programming languages or any other subjective comparison) and stating that something isn't "art" because it doesn't bring something new to the table is like saying that all paintings of a bowl of fruit aren't art because it has been done before. It's an opinion, but not necessarily an accurate one.
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And I did so on purpose. There are many such examples, and not all were designed to display a middle finger. My point was to simply state that art for some is junk for others, and we each end up being a critic for our own tastes. However, to exclude something as being non artistic is to thumb our noses on all those whose opinion differs from our own. I think discussing games (or programming languages or any other subjective comparison) and stating that something isn't "art" because it doesn't bring something new to the table is like saying that all paintings of a bowl of fruit aren't art because it has been done before. It's an opinion, but not necessarily an accurate one.
DougWills wrote:
My point was to simply state that art for some is junk for others, and we each end up being a critic for our own tastes. However, to exclude something as being non artistic is to thumb our noses on all those whose opinion differs from our own.
I discussed this point earlier on other branches of this thread. I was expressing my opinion. My initial opinion was that it should not be included on that list.
DougWills wrote:
I think discussing games (or programming languages or any other subjective comparison) and stating that something isn't "art" because it doesn't bring something new to the table
I was not using that as a standard to qualify something as art. As mentioned earlier, to me, art should inspire awe; "The definition of art is subjective, obviously. But to me art is supposed to invoke a strong reaction; awe, disgust, self examination, etc." -me. Others brought originality into the mix.
DougWills wrote:
is like saying that all paintings of a bowl of fruit aren't art because it has been done before.
I would say many, possibly most paintings of a bowl of fruit are not art, but not for lack of originality's sake. Many paintings are not art and many painters are not artists. The medium does not make it art, the message does.
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How so? I think it is an excellent example of great storytelling in a video game and is an amazingly original idea.
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
I'll admit, I went back to play and read some of the game's story last night. Given the list of games that they want to add, I would say it does belong among them. It is a subtly avant-garde (if that can be) game that is different in the modern gaming world of copy cat games. I guess I focused too much on the mechanics and the portals, rather than what really does set it apart. I would like to recommend Earthbound to the list, too.
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Interesting. I've been an avid gamer for a long time and I've been waiting for games to come along that are truly works of art. I'm still waiting, gaming doesn't have its Citizen Kane yet. Not for lack of quality, games have become really amazing, but the focus is on commercial entertainment rather than art. Most games are like summer blockbuster movies: incredibly well-made and entertaining, but forget about the Oscars. I think that the main problem is the writing, games tend to focus on gameplay (naturally) and writing is often an afterthought, sometimes with comically bad results. Writing is getting better particularly when it comes to dialog (the Uncharted series is a good example), but it's still more like good hack writing for a blockbuster movie, not serious art. Game studios are starting to take the writing and voice acting seriously, so at least we're getting beyond the stage of having a plot thrown together by designers and programmers with no writing background, and voice-acted by whoever is in the office. Pros are starting to be used these days, but it's mostly hack work, because using professional writers and actors is expensive and the safest way to get a return is to make the equivalent of a summer action flick. I think that games are getting there, but the writing needs to evolve before they truly become art. Half-Life (by no means an early game) was revolutionary partly because it actually had a plot, that's how much writing has lagged in gaming. There are some well-written games out there, but not so much on the level of literary art. Many aspects of games such as gameplay, visual art, and music are already often on the level of serious art, but before games as a whole become an art form the writing needs to catch up.
I don't think that I have ever agreed with a statement this long before. Seriously, it's exactly how I feel. I'd love to write for games, yes I can code, too, but I really want to get into game writing. There are only a few people that I currently know of that might be able to write an incredible game, and most of them write comic books or theatre or are dead.
StatementTerminator wrote:
because using professional writers and actors is expensive
This is probably humorous to all but the household names in acting and writing (are there household named writers). I see your point though, and agree, I was just pointing this out, and not at your expense.
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I'll admit, I went back to play and read some of the game's story last night. Given the list of games that they want to add, I would say it does belong among them. It is a subtly avant-garde (if that can be) game that is different in the modern gaming world of copy cat games. I guess I focused too much on the mechanics and the portals, rather than what really does set it apart. I would like to recommend Earthbound to the list, too.
wizardzz wrote:
I would like to recommend Earthbound to the list, too.
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
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wizardzz wrote:
I would like to recommend Earthbound to the list, too.
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
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As the germans say: "Kunst liegt im Auge des Betrachters" means, art lies in the eye of the spectator. There are many many forms of art. I personally think every code we write is a form of art. It all depends of your point of view. What for you is art for others may just be a waste of time and otherwise. I personally would not say that this LINK[^] is art...looks like somebody vomited on it.
Hmm i wonder why its doing that......ARGHS NO STOP, ROLLBACK ROLLBACK...F*** That's how i learned to "Always Backup"!! Dogs are man's best Friend, Cats are man's adorable little serial killer
Art is not a subjective thing, it is absolute and universal. In fact universality is part of what defines art. That art is in the eye of the beholder is a common and tiresome misconception, aesthetics or more generally beauty is in the eye of the beholder, art is not. When you see a sufficiently complex mathematical algorithm, one that escapes your comprehension, you don't say that it is not mathematics, you just accept that you don't have a thorough enough understanding to appreciate its function. Strange how people can't accept their lack of understanding when it comes to painting ,sculpture, music etc. While its true that some art is vastly overrated due to cultural and other influences, any piece of art's merit can be determined in an almost finite manner. There is also the issue of taste, art does exist that I do not 'like' but I still recognise its artistic merit. Anyway, computer games can definitely be considered art but that definition goes way beyond simple (and often hackneyed) aesthetics. Tetris is definitely a work of art, quake also, just as examples. But derivatives that add nothing to the form are as 'none art' when it comes to games as they are in any other discipline.
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Art is not a subjective thing, it is absolute and universal. In fact universality is part of what defines art. That art is in the eye of the beholder is a common and tiresome misconception, aesthetics or more generally beauty is in the eye of the beholder, art is not. When you see a sufficiently complex mathematical algorithm, one that escapes your comprehension, you don't say that it is not mathematics, you just accept that you don't have a thorough enough understanding to appreciate its function. Strange how people can't accept their lack of understanding when it comes to painting ,sculpture, music etc. While its true that some art is vastly overrated due to cultural and other influences, any piece of art's merit can be determined in an almost finite manner. There is also the issue of taste, art does exist that I do not 'like' but I still recognise its artistic merit. Anyway, computer games can definitely be considered art but that definition goes way beyond simple (and often hackneyed) aesthetics. Tetris is definitely a work of art, quake also, just as examples. But derivatives that add nothing to the form are as 'none art' when it comes to games as they are in any other discipline.
Art is not a subjective thing
I think your wrong there, i don't mean to troll but in my opinion art is mostly subjective. For me art has something to do with talent. I agree that art has many many forms but also there are many many things called art that are just rubbish and are only hanging in museums because somebody had connections to somebody who has influence. I bet you that if i took a picture of my breakfast every morning, frame it and say to (hypothetically speaking) a friend of mine, who has connection in the art world, that this is how my inner feelings are manifested he would talk to his connections and he would sell it, that doesn't make me an artist. so yes Art is very very subjective and defined by society much more as we think. By your definition every picture in instagram could be defined by art even if not every person using who uses instagram isn't a professional or artist. It very hard to define art i know but there has to be a line between what is art and what is not, that line has to be drawn by ourselves and our point of view
Hmm i wonder why its doing that......ARGHS NO STOP, ROLLBACK ROLLBACK...F*** That's how i learned to "Always Backup"!! Dogs are man's best Friend, Cats are man's adorable little serial killer
