For you no guns solution people
-
Why?
Because the facts don't matter. All the shootings that take place in the US don't matter. It's almost a matter of religion with people who are raised to think that access to guns makes them free.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
-
Before guns were invented people never killed other people. Never, ever, not once.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost "All users always want Excel" --Ennis Lynch
Turning the argument into a stupid statement that no-one made, is a good sign that you don't have any good response to the actual argument being put forward.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
-
http://www.courant.com/sns-rt-us-china-stabbingsbre8bd065-20121213,0,5592318.story[^] As I said before, how do you stop the INTENT?
You don't, but that's not the point and I think these kind of debates are usually besides the point since they are nearly always centered around some guy who does something extremely insane like murdering children or shooting in a mall. Manslaughter is not the exclusive domain of deranged people, usually it are relatively sane people like you and me who make a mistake and it's a lot more likely to accidentally shoot somebody and kill him, than to accidentally attack somebody with a knife and kill him. Guns are dangerous and off course cars are dangerous too; but you can't use a gun to drive you to work unless you carjack somebody with it. There's no good reason for having them. And no, owning a gun also doesn't make you bulletproof, so you can't use it "for protection". It's the same with nuclear weapons... Most countries have relatively stable governments right? Suppose everybody country in the world has nuclear weapons, nobody will dare to use them and nobody would dare to go to war. That's the same pattern to how most pro-gun people seem to think. They underestimate the probability of human error and only focus on the 'most people are sensible, so having more sensible people carrying guns is good'. It's absolute bs. Seriously, if you just came out cleanly and say you just like the sensation of power of shooting guns; I would respect that. I also like to shoot guns and I would probably buy one if I could do so legally, but I don't think I should have that right.
.
-
I think a tragedy like this is the wrong time to point out how stupid the US attitude towards guns is. How can you expect anything but an emotional response ? I will say, I'd rather face a madman with a knife, than one with a gun. And the US seems to breed both the access to weapons, and the intent. So, either way, there's a US centric issue here, although it can happen in other places, it happens in the US a LOT. Note 22 kids stabbed is different to 26 kids killed, proving my point. Access to guns is access to the ability to do more harm, more quickly.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
I'm pretty sure criminals in every country have access to guns if they want them. Laws are why black markets exist, and who uses black markets? Criminals. Heck, there's no 2nd Amendment in Mexico. They don't have any gun violence from what I hear. If someone wants a gun, they will get a gun, even kill a cop for it: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-11-04/news/chi-slain-chicago-officers-gun-found-west-side-man-charged-20121104_1_west-side-man-austin-neighborhood-home-clifton-lewis[^] BTW, this guy is a felon making it illegal to own or purchase a gun. In this case, some fine citizens left an officer for dead in a car accident just to steal his gun: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2260127/posts[^] Jackpot! 21 guns stolen from a range, by teenagers: http://articles.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010-05-14/news/28509786_1_gun-range-harvey-spokeswoman-sandra-alvarado-harvey-police[^] These all happened in the last few years, in just one city.
-
I think a tragedy like this is the wrong time to point out how stupid the US attitude towards guns is. How can you expect anything but an emotional response ? I will say, I'd rather face a madman with a knife, than one with a gun. And the US seems to breed both the access to weapons, and the intent. So, either way, there's a US centric issue here, although it can happen in other places, it happens in the US a LOT. Note 22 kids stabbed is different to 26 kids killed, proving my point. Access to guns is access to the ability to do more harm, more quickly.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
-
I think a tragedy like this is the wrong time to point out how stupid the US attitude towards guns is. How can you expect anything but an emotional response ? I will say, I'd rather face a madman with a knife, than one with a gun. And the US seems to breed both the access to weapons, and the intent. So, either way, there's a US centric issue here, although it can happen in other places, it happens in the US a LOT. Note 22 kids stabbed is different to 26 kids killed, proving my point. Access to guns is access to the ability to do more harm, more quickly.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
On three occasions I have actually faced a madman with a knife (actually one drunk and two muggers - whether they were mad or not didn't come up in the conversation) and have lived to tell the tale (although I got badly slashed once, stabbed another time and was completely uninjured on the third occasion - for those who are interested, all three of my attackers fled the scene alive, but with serious injuries). With guns, I don't know if I would be here at all.
- Life in the fast lane is only fun if you live in a country with no speed limits. - Of all the things I have lost, it is my mind that I miss the most. - I vaguely remember having a good memory...
-
Turning the argument into a stupid statement that no-one made, is a good sign that you don't have any good response to the actual argument being put forward.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
There is no good response to the argument. There are people that are pro-gun, people that are anti-gun. The fact of the matter is the anti-gun nuts are using this as an opportunity to push the anti gun agenda to tick of the pro gun nuts and not a single person from either side ever makes a compelling rational argument that takes into account all relevant facts. (Most nut jobs leave off information that doesn't support their argument). Now if you really want to discuss something important, let's discuss using their vs. his or her, or alternating gender pronouns. Because, well, we are likely to solve that problem a lot sooner.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost "All users always want Excel" --Ennis Lynch
-
You don't, but that's not the point and I think these kind of debates are usually besides the point since they are nearly always centered around some guy who does something extremely insane like murdering children or shooting in a mall. Manslaughter is not the exclusive domain of deranged people, usually it are relatively sane people like you and me who make a mistake and it's a lot more likely to accidentally shoot somebody and kill him, than to accidentally attack somebody with a knife and kill him. Guns are dangerous and off course cars are dangerous too; but you can't use a gun to drive you to work unless you carjack somebody with it. There's no good reason for having them. And no, owning a gun also doesn't make you bulletproof, so you can't use it "for protection". It's the same with nuclear weapons... Most countries have relatively stable governments right? Suppose everybody country in the world has nuclear weapons, nobody will dare to use them and nobody would dare to go to war. That's the same pattern to how most pro-gun people seem to think. They underestimate the probability of human error and only focus on the 'most people are sensible, so having more sensible people carrying guns is good'. It's absolute bs. Seriously, if you just came out cleanly and say you just like the sensation of power of shooting guns; I would respect that. I also like to shoot guns and I would probably buy one if I could do so legally, but I don't think I should have that right.
.
0bx wrote:
It's the same with nuclear weapons... Most countries have relatively stable governments right? Suppose everybody country in the world has nuclear weapons, nobody will dare to use them and nobody would dare to go to war.
That's the same pattern to how most pro-gun people seem to think. They underestimate the probability of human error and only focus on the 'most people are sensible, so having more sensible people carrying guns is good'. It's absolute bs.Most pro-gun people I know, and I know many (even ones that *gasp* voted for Obama), don't think that criminals or mental ill people should have a right to own guns. Constitutional guarantee's don't apply to criminals (look into convicted felon's voting rights). Will you admit that if nobody can legally carry guns, only criminals would carry them? The sad thing is that pro-gun people are just willing to be realistic, and not idealistic. Can a rogue country get nukes? Yes, probably. Then should reasonable countries have nukes for defense via mutually assured destruction? Yes. Would the world be better without nukes? Maybe, but we don't live in that world. Nor do we live in a world without guns. They exist, bad guys and insane people can and will get their hands on them. Should we restrict law abiding citizens because of this? What purpose does that serve? So people will have a false sense of security and sleep better at night knowing that their law abiding, yet idiotically stupid, neighbor Joe won't accidentally discharge a gun into their condo? Wouldn't they sleep better knowing that criminals may be less likely to burglarize, rape, and murder their family because criminals aren't the only people armed? I'll leave you with this: http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/gun-control-myths-realities[^]
-
I'm pretty sure criminals in every country have access to guns if they want them. Laws are why black markets exist, and who uses black markets? Criminals. Heck, there's no 2nd Amendment in Mexico. They don't have any gun violence from what I hear. If someone wants a gun, they will get a gun, even kill a cop for it: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-11-04/news/chi-slain-chicago-officers-gun-found-west-side-man-charged-20121104_1_west-side-man-austin-neighborhood-home-clifton-lewis[^] BTW, this guy is a felon making it illegal to own or purchase a gun. In this case, some fine citizens left an officer for dead in a car accident just to steal his gun: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2260127/posts[^] Jackpot! 21 guns stolen from a range, by teenagers: http://articles.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010-05-14/news/28509786_1_gun-range-harvey-spokeswoman-sandra-alvarado-harvey-police[^] These all happened in the last few years, in just one city.
None of this means anything. I never said there was NO gun violence in other countries. There's just more ( quite logically ) in a country awash with guns. If I decide to become a criminal, do you think some network of super villians mails me a gun ? Or do I need to find one ? Isn't it easier to find one when there's lots of them about ? Isn't that logical ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
-
On three occasions I have actually faced a madman with a knife (actually one drunk and two muggers - whether they were mad or not didn't come up in the conversation) and have lived to tell the tale (although I got badly slashed once, stabbed another time and was completely uninjured on the third occasion - for those who are interested, all three of my attackers fled the scene alive, but with serious injuries). With guns, I don't know if I would be here at all.
- Life in the fast lane is only fun if you live in a country with no speed limits. - Of all the things I have lost, it is my mind that I miss the most. - I vaguely remember having a good memory...
Exactly. I'd take on a dude with a knife. A gun ? No way. Not even if I had a gun.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
-
On three occasions I have actually faced a madman with a knife (actually one drunk and two muggers - whether they were mad or not didn't come up in the conversation) and have lived to tell the tale (although I got badly slashed once, stabbed another time and was completely uninjured on the third occasion - for those who are interested, all three of my attackers fled the scene alive, but with serious injuries). With guns, I don't know if I would be here at all.
- Life in the fast lane is only fun if you live in a country with no speed limits. - Of all the things I have lost, it is my mind that I miss the most. - I vaguely remember having a good memory...
-
None of this means anything. I never said there was NO gun violence in other countries. There's just more ( quite logically ) in a country awash with guns. If I decide to become a criminal, do you think some network of super villians mails me a gun ? Or do I need to find one ? Isn't it easier to find one when there's lots of them about ? Isn't that logical ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
It's a black market, supply and demand. They'll just cost more, and if you don't need a gun for your enterprise, you'll just use the next cheaper option, like machetes. While law abiding citizens will remain unarmed. That's what they did in African civil wars. Bullets weren't worth it against unarmed opposition. They hacked people apart. 3. Lots of guns don’t necessarily mean lots of shootings, as you can see in Israel and Switzerland. As David Lamp writes at Cato, “In Israel and Switzerland, for example, a license to possess guns is available on demand to every law-abiding adult, and guns are easily obtainable in both nations. Both countries also allow widespread carrying of concealed firearms, and yet, admits Dr. Arthur Kellerman, one of the foremost medical advocates of gun control, Switzerland and Israel ‘have rates of homicide that are low despite rates of home firearm ownership that are at least as high as those in the United States.’ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/[^]
-
There is no good response to the argument. There are people that are pro-gun, people that are anti-gun. The fact of the matter is the anti-gun nuts are using this as an opportunity to push the anti gun agenda to tick of the pro gun nuts and not a single person from either side ever makes a compelling rational argument that takes into account all relevant facts. (Most nut jobs leave off information that doesn't support their argument). Now if you really want to discuss something important, let's discuss using their vs. his or her, or alternating gender pronouns. Because, well, we are likely to solve that problem a lot sooner.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost "All users always want Excel" --Ennis Lynch
There is a clear and rational argument. Criminals can only get guns if society gives them access, through people having them. The cases where a gun makes someone safer, are very rare and dwarfed by the number of kids shot in the US. But, I agree, and indeed said, that a time like this, when emotions are high, is a dumb time to try to make that case.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
-
It's a black market, supply and demand. They'll just cost more, and if you don't need a gun for your enterprise, you'll just use the next cheaper option, like machetes. While law abiding citizens will remain unarmed. That's what they did in African civil wars. Bullets weren't worth it against unarmed opposition. They hacked people apart. 3. Lots of guns don’t necessarily mean lots of shootings, as you can see in Israel and Switzerland. As David Lamp writes at Cato, “In Israel and Switzerland, for example, a license to possess guns is available on demand to every law-abiding adult, and guns are easily obtainable in both nations. Both countries also allow widespread carrying of concealed firearms, and yet, admits Dr. Arthur Kellerman, one of the foremost medical advocates of gun control, Switzerland and Israel ‘have rates of homicide that are low despite rates of home firearm ownership that are at least as high as those in the United States.’ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/[^]
They still don't come from thin air. And I'd rather face a gun with a machete, than a gun. And yes, that's what I said. It's a combination of access to guns and some sort of cultural issue that is going on here. You could have the guns without the violence, but you HAVE the violence and a good first step would be better control of the guns.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
-
It's a black market, supply and demand. They'll just cost more, and if you don't need a gun for your enterprise, you'll just use the next cheaper option, like machetes. While law abiding citizens will remain unarmed. That's what they did in African civil wars. Bullets weren't worth it against unarmed opposition. They hacked people apart. 3. Lots of guns don’t necessarily mean lots of shootings, as you can see in Israel and Switzerland. As David Lamp writes at Cato, “In Israel and Switzerland, for example, a license to possess guns is available on demand to every law-abiding adult, and guns are easily obtainable in both nations. Both countries also allow widespread carrying of concealed firearms, and yet, admits Dr. Arthur Kellerman, one of the foremost medical advocates of gun control, Switzerland and Israel ‘have rates of homicide that are low despite rates of home firearm ownership that are at least as high as those in the United States.’ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/[^]
-
Less guns => lesser availability => higher costs => less chance of obtaining one => less chance of killing many people easily.
Sponsored by Logic
The wisdom is to see things truthfully.
Higher cost does not equal less chance of attaining one necessarily. Think of the free market system, pure supply and demand (this tends to be how black markets operate, so perfect example). As the guns become scarce to criminals, the demand outpaces supply, driving up the price. The sellers want to meet demand because the price is so high, and will start taking guns from any source possible (like cops, shipping containers, etc) bringing the price down so it still remains economical to steal / straw purchase and sell, and still is economical to buy (I'd say an equilibrium that wouldn't be much different than it is now, but I'm no Nash). Unless you did what Carlin said and make bullets $10k, anyone wanting to kill many people would still easily do it. You know the Columbine kids? They had straw buyers.
-
They still don't come from thin air. And I'd rather face a gun with a machete, than a gun. And yes, that's what I said. It's a combination of access to guns and some sort of cultural issue that is going on here. You could have the guns without the violence, but you HAVE the violence and a good first step would be better control of the guns.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
They still don't come from thin air.
Sure, but as long as guns exist in the world, access to them will, too.
Christian Graus wrote:
And I'd rather face a gun with a machete, than a gun.
I guess it depends on who would be alerted, how close you are, who has the jump. But come on, that is silly.
Christian Graus wrote:
You could have the guns without the violence, but you HAVE the violence and a good first step would be better control of the guns.
Actually locking up violent criminals is best first step.
-
Higher cost does not equal less chance of attaining one necessarily. Think of the free market system, pure supply and demand (this tends to be how black markets operate, so perfect example). As the guns become scarce to criminals, the demand outpaces supply, driving up the price. The sellers want to meet demand because the price is so high, and will start taking guns from any source possible (like cops, shipping containers, etc) bringing the price down so it still remains economical to steal / straw purchase and sell, and still is economical to buy (I'd say an equilibrium that wouldn't be much different than it is now, but I'm no Nash). Unless you did what Carlin said and make bullets $10k, anyone wanting to kill many people would still easily do it. You know the Columbine kids? They had straw buyers.
But you are making one more step away from scarcity by saying that sellers want to meet demand because the price is so high, by taking more guns. No! The scarcity is scarcity. The sellers compensate their loss of profit exactly by increasing the price. That's the end of the cycle. It is risky to steal it from cops, and it will again drive the price up. But people won't be having dozens of weapons at home, just waiting for a kid to play, or when the mood strikes the owner to kill, pursue a revenge, or commit shooting out of depression. Many instances wouldn't have even started, because the threshold of getting money together, buying an expensive gun from a unknown source (potentially a cop) will just be too hard for him. So he/she will suck it up, or kill herself, or use other less effective means. Like killing only the person that caused it. But it will still make a huge difference. To kill many people without a gun it takes real effort, and much fewer people will be willing to do it, if guns are not available, or they are harder to obtain.
The wisdom is to see things truthfully.
-
Exactly. I'd take on a dude with a knife. A gun ? No way. Not even if I had a gun.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
I have. Both. and one of them walks to this day(both incidents were around 25 years ago) with a limp and scars, the other doesn't walk. If I had had a gun in hand at the time, neither would be walking and I wouldn't have the scars I do from it.
Beauty is in the eye of the beer-holder Be careful which toes you step on today, they might be connected to the foot that kicks your butt tomorrow. You can't scare me, I have children.
-
I have. Both. and one of them walks to this day(both incidents were around 25 years ago) with a limp and scars, the other doesn't walk. If I had had a gun in hand at the time, neither would be walking and I wouldn't have the scars I do from it.
Beauty is in the eye of the beer-holder Be careful which toes you step on today, they might be connected to the foot that kicks your butt tomorrow. You can't scare me, I have children.