For you no guns solution people
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There is a clear and rational argument. Criminals can only get guns if society gives them access, through people having them. The cases where a gun makes someone safer, are very rare and dwarfed by the number of kids shot in the US. But, I agree, and indeed said, that a time like this, when emotions are high, is a dumb time to try to make that case.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Because the facts don't matter. All the shootings that take place in the US don't matter. It's almost a matter of religion with people who are raised to think that access to guns makes them free.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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None of this means anything. I never said there was NO gun violence in other countries. There's just more ( quite logically ) in a country awash with guns. If I decide to become a criminal, do you think some network of super villians mails me a gun ? Or do I need to find one ? Isn't it easier to find one when there's lots of them about ? Isn't that logical ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
None of this means anything. I never said there was NO gun violence in other countries. There's just more ( quite logically ) in a country awash with guns. If I decide to become a criminal, do you think some network of super villians mails me a gun ? Or do I need to find one ? Isn't it easier to find one when there's lots of them about ? Isn't that logical ?
Based on that then you should be able to easily demonstrate a direct correlation between guns and violence using a number of countries, say 20 at least, where some have restrictive laws and some have liberal laws.
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Less guns => lesser availability => higher costs => less chance of obtaining one => less chance of killing many people easily.
Sponsored by Logic
The wisdom is to see things truthfully.
Smart K8 wrote:
Less guns => lesser availability => higher costs => less chance of obtaining one => less chance of killing many people easily.
Logical but the assumption is wrong. You assume that there is a way to make guns disappear. If that was true then your argument would make sense. However it there was in fact a way to make them disappear then it should work the same way for coke and weed. And there is certainly a vast amount of evidence that absolutely nothing done in last 40 years has reduced those. Matter of fact there is evidence that the quantity/quality has increased while the price has gone down.
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But you are making one more step away from scarcity by saying that sellers want to meet demand because the price is so high, by taking more guns. No! The scarcity is scarcity. The sellers compensate their loss of profit exactly by increasing the price. That's the end of the cycle. It is risky to steal it from cops, and it will again drive the price up. But people won't be having dozens of weapons at home, just waiting for a kid to play, or when the mood strikes the owner to kill, pursue a revenge, or commit shooting out of depression. Many instances wouldn't have even started, because the threshold of getting money together, buying an expensive gun from a unknown source (potentially a cop) will just be too hard for him. So he/she will suck it up, or kill herself, or use other less effective means. Like killing only the person that caused it. But it will still make a huge difference. To kill many people without a gun it takes real effort, and much fewer people will be willing to do it, if guns are not available, or they are harder to obtain.
The wisdom is to see things truthfully.
Smart K8 wrote:
No! The scarcity is scarcity. The sellers compensate their loss of profit exactly by increasing the price. That's the end of the cycle.
I suspect that you certainly have never engaged in any serious criminal activity and haven't even bothered to read much history nor economics. With an increase in price MORE producers appear. As a counter example you will find that buggy whips are very scarce and also very cheap.
Smart K8 wrote:
To kill many people without a gun it takes real effort, and much fewer people will be willing to do it, if guns are not available, or they are harder to obtain.
Yes but as long as we are looking for magical solutions why not just wish all the 'bad' people into the corn field and be done with it?
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On three occasions I have actually faced a madman with a knife (actually one drunk and two muggers - whether they were mad or not didn't come up in the conversation) and have lived to tell the tale (although I got badly slashed once, stabbed another time and was completely uninjured on the third occasion - for those who are interested, all three of my attackers fled the scene alive, but with serious injuries). With guns, I don't know if I would be here at all.
- Life in the fast lane is only fun if you live in a country with no speed limits. - Of all the things I have lost, it is my mind that I miss the most. - I vaguely remember having a good memory...
Forogar wrote:
With guns, I don't know if I would be here at all.
But as long as we are doing hypotheticals we should consider what would have been the outcome in those three cases if you had had a gun and you were trained to use it in combat situations.
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http://www.courant.com/sns-rt-us-china-stabbingsbre8bd065-20121213,0,5592318.story[^] As I said before, how do you stop the INTENT?
Is it me or does your timing really stink! I'm assuming you posted before the KILLING, not injuring, of a bunch of 5-10 year olds in the US. I support gun laws (I'm from Oz after all) but some of you people are like Fundies where guns are concerned.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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Christian Graus wrote:
Criminals can only get guns if society gives them access, through people having them.
I always wondered why it wasn't possible to buy a little coke, lace it with a bit of meth and then pick out a nice prostitute for the evening.
jschell wrote:
I always wondered why it wasn't possible to buy a little coke, lace it with a bit of meth and then pick out a nice prostitute for the evening.
"You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant on the web." Cheers, Peter
Software rusts. Simon Stephenson, ca 1994. So does this signature. me, 2012
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Andrew Stoute wrote:
It might be worth noting
No, it is not worth noting.
Slacker007 wrote:
No, it is not worth noting.
Yeah, why make a big deal of the difference between life and death? :)
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
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There is a clear and rational argument. Criminals can only get guns if society gives them access, through people having them. The cases where a gun makes someone safer, are very rare and dwarfed by the number of kids shot in the US. But, I agree, and indeed said, that a time like this, when emotions are high, is a dumb time to try to make that case.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
Criminals can only get guns if society gives them access, through people having them.
That is incorrect. The UK permits no guns yet they are routinely used by criminals to shoot people. Anyone intent enough will always find a way to get hold of weapons, regardless of the law.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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Christian Graus wrote:
They still don't come from thin air.
Sure, but as long as guns exist in the world, access to them will, too.
Christian Graus wrote:
And I'd rather face a gun with a machete, than a gun.
I guess it depends on who would be alerted, how close you are, who has the jump. But come on, that is silly.
Christian Graus wrote:
You could have the guns without the violence, but you HAVE the violence and a good first step would be better control of the guns.
Actually locking up violent criminals is best first step.
wizardzz wrote:
Sure, but as long as guns exist in the world, access to them will, too.
The question is more, how determined someone has to be, to get access.
wizardzz wrote:
I guess it depends on who would be alerted, how close you are, who has the jump. But come on, that is silly.
Not at all. Dude walks in to your kids classroom, intending to kill people. If you have no other choices, would you prefer a teacher, armed with what's on hand ( I am guessing at a chair ), face someone with a gun, or a knife, no matter how big ? Someone walks up your driveway, intent on violence. You don't have a gun at hand. Or perhaps you do. Would you rather he had a knife or a gun ?
wizardzz wrote:
Actually locking up violent criminals is best first step.
These people tend to be unhinged nut jobs more than people with a history of violent crime. That's also where the link to criminals falls apart
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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I think a tragedy like this is the wrong time to point out how stupid the US attitude towards guns is. How can you expect anything but an emotional response ? I will say, I'd rather face a madman with a knife, than one with a gun. And the US seems to breed both the access to weapons, and the intent. So, either way, there's a US centric issue here, although it can happen in other places, it happens in the US a LOT. Note 22 kids stabbed is different to 26 kids killed, proving my point. Access to guns is access to the ability to do more harm, more quickly.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
So, either way, there's a US centric issue here, although it can happen in other places, it happens in the US a LOT.
It most certainly DOES NOT happen "a lot". We have over 85 million legal gun owners. A mass shooting MIGHT happen a couple of times per year (if you don't count cops shooting civilians). The last time I did the math, 2 out of 85,000,000 could not reasonable be defined as "a lot".
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
At least without guns, it is harder to kill.
That's pretty much the stupidest thing I've seen posted on CodeProject.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
Stay classy America :doh:
There really was no call for that.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
http://www.courant.com/sns-rt-us-china-stabbingsbre8bd065-20121213,0,5592318.story[^] As I said before, how do you stop the INTENT?
Dude your no-guns rampage guy that you're talking about INJURED 22 people with a knife. INJURED. There's just a little difference you know. Getting a phone call saying your kid is INJURED, even slashed up with a knife, versus getting a phone call that your kid is freaking DEAD.
Nigel
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Christian Graus wrote:
So, either way, there's a US centric issue here, although it can happen in other places, it happens in the US a LOT.
It most certainly DOES NOT happen "a lot". We have over 85 million legal gun owners. A mass shooting MIGHT happen a couple of times per year (if you don't count cops shooting civilians). The last time I did the math, 2 out of 85,000,000 could not reasonable be defined as "a lot".
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997Every time I've looked for figures, your shooting deaths per capita dwarf those of the rest of Western society.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Every time I've looked for figures, your shooting deaths per capita dwarf those of the rest of Western society.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
I thought we were talking about mass shootings.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
I thought we were talking about mass shootings.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997You have more of those too. You win on every front. See my link below, the wiki entry for school shootings breaks out to another, much bigger page, b.c there's a much bigger and longer history in the US, than the rest of the world.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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http://www.courant.com/sns-rt-us-china-stabbingsbre8bd065-20121213,0,5592318.story[^] As I said before, how do you stop the INTENT?
In South Africa we have very strict gun control, and yet 'normal', i.e. one on one shootings are extremely commonplace. Nearly always the guns used in these are not legally owned by the shooter, but stolen or bought on the black market. Yet, we have extremely few mass shootings such as occur on an alarmingly regular basis in the US, and sometimes elsewhere.
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Christian Graus wrote:
It's almost a matter of religion with people who are raised to think that access to guns makes them free.
Not really. It is however a fundamental right explicitly given by the most fundamental legal document in the US.
The same document also gave us the 3/5ths compromise. Are you willing to stick by that?