Why Programmers Work At Night
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Article wrote:
At the gist of all this is avoiding distractions. But you could just lock the door, what’s so special about the night?
It's a thing called "flow". Doesn't happen just during the night, just during moments without interruptions.
Espen Harlinn wrote:
Is it only me, or did somebody actually manage to get it?
Get what?
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] They hate us for our freedom![^]
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Get what?
Should perhaps have written: Manage to put it into words that even a manager should be able to understand. I realize I may be a tad optimistic - but I'm hoping ;)
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Doesn't happen just during the night, just during moments without interruptions.
Agree, but then those moments without interruption isn't something you usually get during "working hours". We're discussing this with some regularity at work - and I'm trying to argue that, depending on what you're doing, some flexibility with regards to where and when you work is a good thing - and that this doesn't mean total anarchy.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
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Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Get what?
Should perhaps have written: Manage to put it into words that even a manager should be able to understand. I realize I may be a tad optimistic - but I'm hoping ;)
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Doesn't happen just during the night, just during moments without interruptions.
Agree, but then those moments without interruption isn't something you usually get during "working hours". We're discussing this with some regularity at work - and I'm trying to argue that, depending on what you're doing, some flexibility with regards to where and when you work is a good thing - and that this doesn't mean total anarchy.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
Espen Harlinn wrote:
Agree, but then those moments without interruption isn't something you usually get during "working hours".
..there's usually a time-sheet, and most managers get the hint if it contains more items labelled "(internal) support" than "writing code".
Espen Harlinn wrote:
We're discussing this with some regularity at work
Most workplaces aren't a democracy, and most of the time a manager wants to be able to "walk in and talk". Combine that with a semi-helpdesk function where customers call at random moments, and your productivity drops rapidly. Easy solution; hire someone cheap to handle the calls, let the manager aggregate his things for the planned meeting. That's obviously more expensive than crippling a programmers' productivity, and hence, not an option.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] They hate us for our freedom![^]
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Espen Harlinn wrote:
Agree, but then those moments without interruption isn't something you usually get during "working hours".
..there's usually a time-sheet, and most managers get the hint if it contains more items labelled "(internal) support" than "writing code".
Espen Harlinn wrote:
We're discussing this with some regularity at work
Most workplaces aren't a democracy, and most of the time a manager wants to be able to "walk in and talk". Combine that with a semi-helpdesk function where customers call at random moments, and your productivity drops rapidly. Easy solution; hire someone cheap to handle the calls, let the manager aggregate his things for the planned meeting. That's obviously more expensive than crippling a programmers' productivity, and hence, not an option.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] They hate us for our freedom![^]
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
That's obviously more expensive than crippling a programmers' productivity, and hence, not an option.
From my perspective, crippling a programmers' productivity, is actualy way more expensive ...
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
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Why Programmers Work At Night[^] a schedule for those of us who produce stuff. Working on large abstract systems involves fitting the whole thing into your mind – somebody once likened this to constructing a house out of expensive crystal glass and as soon as someone distracts you, it all comes barreling down and shatters into a thousand pieces. Is it only me, or did somebody actually manage to get it?
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
i will never cease to be amazed at how special programmers think they are. do no other jobs require attention and concentration?
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Eddy Vluggen wrote:
That's obviously more expensive than crippling a programmers' productivity, and hence, not an option.
From my perspective, crippling a programmers' productivity, is actualy way more expensive ...
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
I think Eddy was missing the sarcasm smiley!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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i will never cease to be amazed at how special programmers think they are. do no other jobs require attention and concentration?
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i will never cease to be amazed at how special programmers think they are. do no other jobs require attention and concentration?
Chris Losinger wrote:
do no other jobs require attention and concentration?
Most certainly - I've never met a scientist who was required to work in an open office solution. I've met a few that shared an office - but then that's the way they wanted it. My point is that the most efficient work environment isn't necessarily a fixed thing, it changes depending on circumstances. Neither is this an argument that's only about software development.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
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Why Programmers Work At Night[^] a schedule for those of us who produce stuff. Working on large abstract systems involves fitting the whole thing into your mind – somebody once likened this to constructing a house out of expensive crystal glass and as soon as someone distracts you, it all comes barreling down and shatters into a thousand pieces. Is it only me, or did somebody actually manage to get it?
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
Of course us programmers work at night. We sleep during the day, so the only time left to work, is at night. :doh:
Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. [Yogi Berra] posting about Crystal Reports here is like discussing gay marriage on a catholic church’s website.[Nishant Sivakumar]
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Why Programmers Work At Night[^] a schedule for those of us who produce stuff. Working on large abstract systems involves fitting the whole thing into your mind – somebody once likened this to constructing a house out of expensive crystal glass and as soon as someone distracts you, it all comes barreling down and shatters into a thousand pieces. Is it only me, or did somebody actually manage to get it?
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
Already being discussed in the Insider News[^]
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
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Of course us programmers work at night. We sleep during the day, so the only time left to work, is at night. :doh:
Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. [Yogi Berra] posting about Crystal Reports here is like discussing gay marriage on a catholic church’s website.[Nishant Sivakumar]
Chris Meech wrote:
We sleep during the day, so the only time left to work, is at night.
Lucky you :laugh: Doesn't work quite like that around here ... joking aside, there are times when that would be the best way to work - thankfully not often, but pretending they don't exist doesn't do an organization much good either.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
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Article wrote:
At the gist of all this is avoiding distractions. But you could just lock the door, what’s so special about the night?
It's a thing called "flow". Doesn't happen just during the night, just during moments without interruptions.
Espen Harlinn wrote:
Is it only me, or did somebody actually manage to get it?
Get what?
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] They hate us for our freedom![^]
When it gets late, around midnight, I get a clarity of mind and focus that I can't get during daylight hours, even in a dark room. I feel like I could go on for hours, and am able to see endless possibilities. By day, these possibilities are qualified with effort and resources, but late at night, it is only me and the code. I do my brain surgery late at night, couple nights per week, and collaborative work during the day.
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Already being discussed in the Insider News[^]
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
With a slightly different spin on the discussion, acknowledging that we do vs this is sometimes a good way to work, with, if managed correctly, benefits for both employer and employee - or at least that's why I brought it up.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
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Chris Losinger wrote:
do no other jobs require attention and concentration?
Most certainly - I've never met a scientist who was required to work in an open office solution. I've met a few that shared an office - but then that's the way they wanted it. My point is that the most efficient work environment isn't necessarily a fixed thing, it changes depending on circumstances. Neither is this an argument that's only about software development.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
Espen Harlinn wrote:
Most certainly - I've never met a scientist who was required to work in an open office solution.
:thumbsup: +5
CPallini wrote:
You cannot argue with agile people so just take the extreme approach and shoot him. :Smile:
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i will never cease to be amazed at how special programmers think they are. do no other jobs require attention and concentration?
Chris Losinger wrote:
i will never cease to be amazed at how special programmers think they are.
do no other jobs require attention and concentration?Do you interrupt a surgeon during work? A policeman during a chase? How productive is a mathematician that gets bombarded with all kinds of information, without being given time to process it? A civil servant behind a desk, that's one you can interrupt. Interrupting working people simply means that you're interrupting work. Which is allowed, but one would have to accept the logical consequences thereof.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] They hate us for our freedom![^]
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Why Programmers Work At Night[^] a schedule for those of us who produce stuff. Working on large abstract systems involves fitting the whole thing into your mind – somebody once likened this to constructing a house out of expensive crystal glass and as soon as someone distracts you, it all comes barreling down and shatters into a thousand pieces. Is it only me, or did somebody actually manage to get it?
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
I don't keep all that stuff in my head any more. I've found using UML gets the idea down into an easily retrievable form quickly and I've learned to let go of my ego when it comes to using other people's work. Using design patterns also goes a long way. I think a lot of having to keep abstract systems in your head comes from insufficient planning and an unwillingness to value the work of others, also known as "Not Invented Here": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here[^]
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Eddy Vluggen wrote:
That's obviously more expensive than crippling a programmers' productivity, and hence, not an option.
From my perspective, crippling a programmers' productivity, is actualy way more expensive ...
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
Espen Harlinn wrote:
From my perspective, crippling a programmers' productivity, is actualy way more expensive ...
I'll have to agree. See, not much of a discussion :) It's a decision, and one can easily list arguments and consequences.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] They hate us for our freedom![^]
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Espen Harlinn wrote:
From my perspective, crippling a programmers' productivity, is actualy way more expensive ...
I'll have to agree. See, not much of a discussion :) It's a decision, and one can easily list arguments and consequences.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] They hate us for our freedom![^]
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
one can easily list arguments and consequences
Which is what I'm looking for, I can easily list my own - but I like to get the input of other people too. As I mentioned elsewhere on this thread, I'd like to see a workplace that accepts more fexibility, as the norm - which I think will be of benefit to both employer and employee. There are both pros and cons, but in my experience people tend to be both more productive and responsible when the work environment is flexible enough to adapt to the employee.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
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i will never cease to be amazed at how special programmers think they are. do no other jobs require attention and concentration?
Strip-club owner? If I owned a strip club, I'd be concentrating very hard anyway.
Sort of a cross between Lawrence of Arabia and Dilbert.[^]
-Or-
A Dead ringer for Kate Winslett[^] -
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
one can easily list arguments and consequences
Which is what I'm looking for, I can easily list my own - but I like to get the input of other people too. As I mentioned elsewhere on this thread, I'd like to see a workplace that accepts more fexibility, as the norm - which I think will be of benefit to both employer and employee. There are both pros and cons, but in my experience people tend to be both more productive and responsible when the work environment is flexible enough to adapt to the employee.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
Oh no! I am special kind of dyslexic, you and the guy above you looks same to me. :(
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I don't keep all that stuff in my head any more. I've found using UML gets the idea down into an easily retrievable form quickly and I've learned to let go of my ego when it comes to using other people's work. Using design patterns also goes a long way. I think a lot of having to keep abstract systems in your head comes from insufficient planning and an unwillingness to value the work of others, also known as "Not Invented Here": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here[^]
jim lahey wrote:
I think a lot of having to keep abstract systems in your head comes from insufficient planning and an unwillingness to value the work of others, also known as "Not Invented Here"
Only up to a certain level - I think it's safe to say that I have fairly good understanding of patterns and their value :-D Sometimes you work on stuff that doesn't have an established pattern, or you work with software that's 'Not Invented Here', but still very complex. There are also times when you have to get up to speed on something in a read hurry.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra