Why Programmers Work At Night
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Already being discussed in the Insider News[^]
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
With a slightly different spin on the discussion, acknowledging that we do vs this is sometimes a good way to work, with, if managed correctly, benefits for both employer and employee - or at least that's why I brought it up.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
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i will never cease to be amazed at how special programmers think they are. do no other jobs require attention and concentration?
Chris Losinger wrote:
i will never cease to be amazed at how special programmers think they are.
do no other jobs require attention and concentration?Do you interrupt a surgeon during work? A policeman during a chase? How productive is a mathematician that gets bombarded with all kinds of information, without being given time to process it? A civil servant behind a desk, that's one you can interrupt. Interrupting working people simply means that you're interrupting work. Which is allowed, but one would have to accept the logical consequences thereof.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] They hate us for our freedom![^]
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Why Programmers Work At Night[^] a schedule for those of us who produce stuff. Working on large abstract systems involves fitting the whole thing into your mind – somebody once likened this to constructing a house out of expensive crystal glass and as soon as someone distracts you, it all comes barreling down and shatters into a thousand pieces. Is it only me, or did somebody actually manage to get it?
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
I don't keep all that stuff in my head any more. I've found using UML gets the idea down into an easily retrievable form quickly and I've learned to let go of my ego when it comes to using other people's work. Using design patterns also goes a long way. I think a lot of having to keep abstract systems in your head comes from insufficient planning and an unwillingness to value the work of others, also known as "Not Invented Here": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here[^]
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Eddy Vluggen wrote:
That's obviously more expensive than crippling a programmers' productivity, and hence, not an option.
From my perspective, crippling a programmers' productivity, is actualy way more expensive ...
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
Espen Harlinn wrote:
From my perspective, crippling a programmers' productivity, is actualy way more expensive ...
I'll have to agree. See, not much of a discussion :) It's a decision, and one can easily list arguments and consequences.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] They hate us for our freedom![^]
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Espen Harlinn wrote:
From my perspective, crippling a programmers' productivity, is actualy way more expensive ...
I'll have to agree. See, not much of a discussion :) It's a decision, and one can easily list arguments and consequences.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] They hate us for our freedom![^]
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
one can easily list arguments and consequences
Which is what I'm looking for, I can easily list my own - but I like to get the input of other people too. As I mentioned elsewhere on this thread, I'd like to see a workplace that accepts more fexibility, as the norm - which I think will be of benefit to both employer and employee. There are both pros and cons, but in my experience people tend to be both more productive and responsible when the work environment is flexible enough to adapt to the employee.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
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i will never cease to be amazed at how special programmers think they are. do no other jobs require attention and concentration?
Strip-club owner? If I owned a strip club, I'd be concentrating very hard anyway.
Sort of a cross between Lawrence of Arabia and Dilbert.[^]
-Or-
A Dead ringer for Kate Winslett[^] -
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
one can easily list arguments and consequences
Which is what I'm looking for, I can easily list my own - but I like to get the input of other people too. As I mentioned elsewhere on this thread, I'd like to see a workplace that accepts more fexibility, as the norm - which I think will be of benefit to both employer and employee. There are both pros and cons, but in my experience people tend to be both more productive and responsible when the work environment is flexible enough to adapt to the employee.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
Oh no! I am special kind of dyslexic, you and the guy above you looks same to me. :(
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I don't keep all that stuff in my head any more. I've found using UML gets the idea down into an easily retrievable form quickly and I've learned to let go of my ego when it comes to using other people's work. Using design patterns also goes a long way. I think a lot of having to keep abstract systems in your head comes from insufficient planning and an unwillingness to value the work of others, also known as "Not Invented Here": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here[^]
jim lahey wrote:
I think a lot of having to keep abstract systems in your head comes from insufficient planning and an unwillingness to value the work of others, also known as "Not Invented Here"
Only up to a certain level - I think it's safe to say that I have fairly good understanding of patterns and their value :-D Sometimes you work on stuff that doesn't have an established pattern, or you work with software that's 'Not Invented Here', but still very complex. There are also times when you have to get up to speed on something in a read hurry.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
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When it gets late, around midnight, I get a clarity of mind and focus that I can't get during daylight hours, even in a dark room. I feel like I could go on for hours, and am able to see endless possibilities. By day, these possibilities are qualified with effort and resources, but late at night, it is only me and the code. I do my brain surgery late at night, couple nights per week, and collaborative work during the day.
Now, that has a ring of familiarity to it - and I guess this goes for a lot people ...
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
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Eddy Vluggen wrote:
one can easily list arguments and consequences
Which is what I'm looking for, I can easily list my own - but I like to get the input of other people too. As I mentioned elsewhere on this thread, I'd like to see a workplace that accepts more fexibility, as the norm - which I think will be of benefit to both employer and employee. There are both pros and cons, but in my experience people tend to be both more productive and responsible when the work environment is flexible enough to adapt to the employee.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
Espen Harlinn wrote:
but in my experience people tend to be both more productive and responsible when the work environment is flexible enough to adapt
Not all people; some of them will abuse any privilege given. There's what bites our manager, and it's a valid point too.
Espen Harlinn wrote:
I'd like to see a workplace that accepts more fexibility
Are you lacking flexibility, or are you trying to get away from a non-optimal work-environment? There's a lot you can do to kill distractions; turn of your IM, don't read mails the second they arrive, close the door. In general, one can easily explain that interrupting work will cause a delay.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] They hate us for our freedom![^]
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Espen Harlinn wrote:
Agree, but then those moments without interruption isn't something you usually get during "working hours".
..there's usually a time-sheet, and most managers get the hint if it contains more items labelled "(internal) support" than "writing code".
Espen Harlinn wrote:
We're discussing this with some regularity at work
Most workplaces aren't a democracy, and most of the time a manager wants to be able to "walk in and talk". Combine that with a semi-helpdesk function where customers call at random moments, and your productivity drops rapidly. Easy solution; hire someone cheap to handle the calls, let the manager aggregate his things for the planned meeting. That's obviously more expensive than crippling a programmers' productivity, and hence, not an option.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] They hate us for our freedom![^]
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
a manager wants to be able to "walk in and talk".
I occasionally post a sign outside my cube:
UNLESS IT'S ON FIRE, I DON'T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT IT
That, plus the fact that I'm wearing my headphones, is usually sufficient to keep people from bothering me. If it isn't, the pike outside my cubicle can always use a fresh head as a warning to others.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Already being discussed in the Insider News[^]
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
Some very thought-provoking responses there! :-D
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
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Espen Harlinn wrote:
but in my experience people tend to be both more productive and responsible when the work environment is flexible enough to adapt
Not all people; some of them will abuse any privilege given. There's what bites our manager, and it's a valid point too.
Espen Harlinn wrote:
I'd like to see a workplace that accepts more fexibility
Are you lacking flexibility, or are you trying to get away from a non-optimal work-environment? There's a lot you can do to kill distractions; turn of your IM, don't read mails the second they arrive, close the door. In general, one can easily explain that interrupting work will cause a delay.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] They hate us for our freedom![^]
First, I think many of us do as Catherine Bullard[^] does. Some things just can't be done productively, if at all, when you're getting interrupted on a regular basis; and since I like to chat, I might even interrupt myself just to do that - so it's not just other people interrupting my work.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
some of them will abuse any privilege given
It's tempting to say: let them - that kind of people usually aren't productive no matter what kind of environment - and Q&A should be on to them soon enough.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
are you trying to get away from a non-optimal work-environment?
Work environment is a common enough topic here in the lounge, and for good reasons.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Are you lacking flexibility
There are certainly things I can't do at work - you mentioned "flow", and when I'm really into it - getting interrupted feels like a heart attack. I usually don’t startle easily, but this really is the exception. The point I'm trying to get through to a number of people is that the "optimal" environment isn't a fixed thing.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
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First, I think many of us do as Catherine Bullard[^] does. Some things just can't be done productively, if at all, when you're getting interrupted on a regular basis; and since I like to chat, I might even interrupt myself just to do that - so it's not just other people interrupting my work.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
some of them will abuse any privilege given
It's tempting to say: let them - that kind of people usually aren't productive no matter what kind of environment - and Q&A should be on to them soon enough.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
are you trying to get away from a non-optimal work-environment?
Work environment is a common enough topic here in the lounge, and for good reasons.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Are you lacking flexibility
There are certainly things I can't do at work - you mentioned "flow", and when I'm really into it - getting interrupted feels like a heart attack. I usually don’t startle easily, but this really is the exception. The point I'm trying to get through to a number of people is that the "optimal" environment isn't a fixed thing.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
Espen Harlinn wrote:
First, I think many of us do as Catherine Bullard[^] does.
Yup, the ideal work-week has four days and three nights.
Espen Harlinn wrote:
The point I'm trying to get through to a number of people is that the "optimal" environment isn't a fixed thing.
Nice thread :thumbsup: Always assumed it was tied to the profession, but as I read here, there are various levels of personal preferences.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] They hate us for our freedom![^]
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Chris Losinger wrote:
do no other jobs require attention and concentration?
Helicopter pilot for example.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends. Shed Petition[^]
Funny you should mention that. In a lot of airlines they have a "sterile cockpit" policy that requires both pilots to only talk about the job at hand (getting the plane on the ground) once they go below some nominal altitude, often 10000ft. This is because landing a plane requires intense concentration by both pilots despite all the on-board computer wizardry that's supposed to make it easier. The last few seconds are especially crucial, and distractions in that phase of the flight constitute a real risk. They say there are only two kinds of pilots: those who have landed with the gear up, and those who are going to. Too many pilots have been distracted at the point of putting the gear down and forgotten to do it; staying out of both categories is really hard work requiring constant vigilance.
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Espen Harlinn wrote:
From my perspective, crippling a programmers' productivity, is actualy way more expensive ...
I'll have to agree. See, not much of a discussion :) It's a decision, and one can easily list arguments and consequences.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] They hate us for our freedom![^]
Those place that group-working is a way of life obligates creative people to wait everybody goes away to start working.
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Why Programmers Work At Night[^] a schedule for those of us who produce stuff. Working on large abstract systems involves fitting the whole thing into your mind – somebody once likened this to constructing a house out of expensive crystal glass and as soon as someone distracts you, it all comes barreling down and shatters into a thousand pieces. Is it only me, or did somebody actually manage to get it?
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
Because we are some kind of mad scientist that transmute caffeine into code, you don't want to do that at day, do you? :) Seriously, i think is more about working without interruptions, and as long as you can have a couple of hours to work non stop, it really doesn't matter if you work at day or night.
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
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Espen Harlinn wrote:
Agree, but then those moments without interruption isn't something you usually get during "working hours".
..there's usually a time-sheet, and most managers get the hint if it contains more items labelled "(internal) support" than "writing code".
Espen Harlinn wrote:
We're discussing this with some regularity at work
Most workplaces aren't a democracy, and most of the time a manager wants to be able to "walk in and talk". Combine that with a semi-helpdesk function where customers call at random moments, and your productivity drops rapidly. Easy solution; hire someone cheap to handle the calls, let the manager aggregate his things for the planned meeting. That's obviously more expensive than crippling a programmers' productivity, and hence, not an option.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] They hate us for our freedom![^]
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Most workplaces aren't a democracy, and most of the time a manager wants to be able to "walk in and talk".
So when the manager walks in to chat, say "Hold one sec," save your work and shut down the computer. Then chat with him. It should make the point.
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I don't keep all that stuff in my head any more. I've found using UML gets the idea down into an easily retrievable form quickly and I've learned to let go of my ego when it comes to using other people's work. Using design patterns also goes a long way. I think a lot of having to keep abstract systems in your head comes from insufficient planning and an unwillingness to value the work of others, also known as "Not Invented Here": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here[^]
jim lahey wrote:
I think a lot of having to keep abstract systems in your head comes from insufficient planning and an unwillingness to value the work of others, also known as "Not Invented Here":
I disagree. In my experience, having to keep the system in my head is required to assess the repercussions of changes I'm about to make. In a perfect world, changes in one part of the system are isolated and don't affect others. I've yet to see any code base retain that original design after a few years worth of added unforseen features and new engineers. My attitude is that if changes I make unexpectedly break stuff elsewhere, then I ruined the team's productivity because I didn't have a sufficiently extensive mental model to spot that repercussion.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Most workplaces aren't a democracy, and most of the time a manager wants to be able to "walk in and talk".
So when the manager walks in to chat, say "Hold one sec," save your work and shut down the computer. Then chat with him. It should make the point.