Referenda
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So Dave is going to give everyone in the UK the chance to say if they want to be in or out of Europe (will the Scots have left the UK by then?). The problem I have with referenda, is that like radio phone ins, the vast majority of those who take part are clueless idiots totally incapable of seeing any bigger or long term perspective. I don't want people like me contributing to major decisions for the country and its future. I'm an ill-informed moron. I don't want MPs making those decisions either. They're well-informed morons. I want them to ask people who are well-informed and not morons, and then do what they say is best for the long term future of the country. Leave me out of it, I make stupid decisions, and I'm damn sight smarter than most people I know.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends. Shed Petition[^]
First up, I'd like some honest reporting about the EU, yes they waste money and no they are not elected; so is the House of Lords. You regularly hear the cost of the EU to Britain. Sure we pay in an afternoon's overtime for DD to the European Coffers and only get a gnat's tadger back in direct funds, but we benefit hugely from European countries buying our goods and services; think of it as a 1% export tariff to access the market which is a lot cheaper than the US. As a country we would lose a lot of business being outside the EU and, best guesses, put it at more than we'd gain from not paying for Brussels. My current passport is relatively unblemished except for a few US visas. Pre-EU expansion I was filling up a passport every 2 years or so; that's a bonus. Travel is made so much easier because of the EU, every day thosands of us travel around Europe without hindrance. I remember trying to get from France to Germany back in pre-Sengen days, you needed to allow an extra hour somedays just to cross the border. There is a lot the EU does badly, qv CAP, but a hell of a lot it does very well that is to our benefit. My fear is that we will throw the baby out with the bathwater. Come the day, I will vote to stay in the EU; with or without a new treaty.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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So Dave is going to give everyone in the UK the chance to say if they want to be in or out of Europe (will the Scots have left the UK by then?). The problem I have with referenda, is that like radio phone ins, the vast majority of those who take part are clueless idiots totally incapable of seeing any bigger or long term perspective. I don't want people like me contributing to major decisions for the country and its future. I'm an ill-informed moron. I don't want MPs making those decisions either. They're well-informed morons. I want them to ask people who are well-informed and not morons, and then do what they say is best for the long term future of the country. Leave me out of it, I make stupid decisions, and I'm damn sight smarter than most people I know.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends. Shed Petition[^]
AFAIK, you should have an election before that and I assume it will be, more or less, a pre-referendum. (for or against a referendum).
ChrisElston wrote:
I don't want MPs making those decisions either. They're well-informed morons.
Ah, yes, let the uninformed morons make the decision ... don't kid yourself, the vast majority do not have a clue about the advantages or disavantages of the EU. (in the UK and the rest of Europe), especially these last couple of years.
Nihil obstat
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Education is more than giving information. Most importantly, it implies that one learns to evaluate the information given. Or to quote George Carlin; "kids should be taught to question everything[^]". --edit; Added link to quote
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] They hate us for our freedom![^]
We tried educating everyone in the UK. University places for all. Most of them couldn't cope with it and it shagged everything up. You cannot teach people to be smarter, and if everyone was smarter then we'd be totally screwed. Aldous Huxley's Brave New World may have been intended as a dystopia, but it worked, and introducing a foreign agent in the savage led to him being forced out and the world working perfectly well as it had before.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends. Shed Petition[^]
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So Dave is going to give everyone in the UK the chance to say if they want to be in or out of Europe (will the Scots have left the UK by then?). The problem I have with referenda, is that like radio phone ins, the vast majority of those who take part are clueless idiots totally incapable of seeing any bigger or long term perspective. I don't want people like me contributing to major decisions for the country and its future. I'm an ill-informed moron. I don't want MPs making those decisions either. They're well-informed morons. I want them to ask people who are well-informed and not morons, and then do what they say is best for the long term future of the country. Leave me out of it, I make stupid decisions, and I'm damn sight smarter than most people I know.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends. Shed Petition[^]
ChrisElston wrote:
ho are well-informed and not morons, and then do what they say is best for the long term future of the country.
Your problem there is that those that are well informed and not morons will likely have their own motives for voting one way or the other, and those motives will be in their own, and not your's or the country's best interest.
MVVM# - See how I did MVVM my way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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We tried educating everyone in the UK. University places for all. Most of them couldn't cope with it and it shagged everything up. You cannot teach people to be smarter, and if everyone was smarter then we'd be totally screwed. Aldous Huxley's Brave New World may have been intended as a dystopia, but it worked, and introducing a foreign agent in the savage led to him being forced out and the world working perfectly well as it had before.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends. Shed Petition[^]
ChrisElston wrote:
We tried educating everyone in the UK. University places for all.
Universities aren't education for the masses. Given the amount of spare time the average person in the UK has, I doubt that there'll be time left to learn to think. They needn't all become doctors, it just would be nice to see common sense return.
ChrisElston wrote:
You cannot teach people to be smarter
I disagree. We've used TV-ad's to convince people of the weirdest things. Ever noticed the Pavlovian reaction of an American at the word "socialist"?
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] They hate us for our freedom![^]
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First up, I'd like some honest reporting about the EU, yes they waste money and no they are not elected; so is the House of Lords. You regularly hear the cost of the EU to Britain. Sure we pay in an afternoon's overtime for DD to the European Coffers and only get a gnat's tadger back in direct funds, but we benefit hugely from European countries buying our goods and services; think of it as a 1% export tariff to access the market which is a lot cheaper than the US. As a country we would lose a lot of business being outside the EU and, best guesses, put it at more than we'd gain from not paying for Brussels. My current passport is relatively unblemished except for a few US visas. Pre-EU expansion I was filling up a passport every 2 years or so; that's a bonus. Travel is made so much easier because of the EU, every day thosands of us travel around Europe without hindrance. I remember trying to get from France to Germany back in pre-Sengen days, you needed to allow an extra hour somedays just to cross the border. There is a lot the EU does badly, qv CAP, but a hell of a lot it does very well that is to our benefit. My fear is that we will throw the baby out with the bathwater. Come the day, I will vote to stay in the EU; with or without a new treaty.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
This is getting political when the original post was meant to be about the idea of referenda, not the subject of the one in the news, but; I think this is quite good[^]
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends. Shed Petition[^]
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So Dave is going to give everyone in the UK the chance to say if they want to be in or out of Europe (will the Scots have left the UK by then?). The problem I have with referenda, is that like radio phone ins, the vast majority of those who take part are clueless idiots totally incapable of seeing any bigger or long term perspective. I don't want people like me contributing to major decisions for the country and its future. I'm an ill-informed moron. I don't want MPs making those decisions either. They're well-informed morons. I want them to ask people who are well-informed and not morons, and then do what they say is best for the long term future of the country. Leave me out of it, I make stupid decisions, and I'm damn sight smarter than most people I know.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends. Shed Petition[^]
Maybe you should visit the queen, and suggest another method for governing the country, if you believe that that democracy thing isn't good enough.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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First up, I'd like some honest reporting about the EU, yes they waste money and no they are not elected; so is the House of Lords. You regularly hear the cost of the EU to Britain. Sure we pay in an afternoon's overtime for DD to the European Coffers and only get a gnat's tadger back in direct funds, but we benefit hugely from European countries buying our goods and services; think of it as a 1% export tariff to access the market which is a lot cheaper than the US. As a country we would lose a lot of business being outside the EU and, best guesses, put it at more than we'd gain from not paying for Brussels. My current passport is relatively unblemished except for a few US visas. Pre-EU expansion I was filling up a passport every 2 years or so; that's a bonus. Travel is made so much easier because of the EU, every day thosands of us travel around Europe without hindrance. I remember trying to get from France to Germany back in pre-Sengen days, you needed to allow an extra hour somedays just to cross the border. There is a lot the EU does badly, qv CAP, but a hell of a lot it does very well that is to our benefit. My fear is that we will throw the baby out with the bathwater. Come the day, I will vote to stay in the EU; with or without a new treaty.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Nagy Vilmos wrote:
My current passport is relatively unblemished except for a few US visas. Pre-EU expansion I was filling up a passport every 2 years or so; that's a bonus.
That's a really stupid argument. The rest is well thought out though. Think you're missing some points though, like the adverse effect the freedom to move between Country and Country in search of work has on Britain. Also you say that we need to be art of the EU for the trade benefits, but we are not going to be able to have that forever, at some point we will need to embrace it fully(oner currency, one army, one government etc) or get kicked out. I say get out now and give us more time to prepare.
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ChrisElston wrote:
ho are well-informed and not morons, and then do what they say is best for the long term future of the country.
Your problem there is that those that are well informed and not morons will likely have their own motives for voting one way or the other, and those motives will be in their own, and not your's or the country's best interest.
MVVM# - See how I did MVVM my way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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That's why you need enough of them. Smooth out the bumps. A properly appointed upper house for example.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends. Shed Petition[^]
As long as it isn't the hoi polloi (who in this day and age are simply a reflection of the media's wants) ...
ChrisElston wrote:
properly appointed
it's how you achieve that which is the hardest question of all; democracy = hoi polloi = media
MVVM# - See how I did MVVM my way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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Maybe you should visit the queen, and suggest another method for governing the country, if you believe that that democracy thing isn't good enough.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark_Wallace wrote:
Maybe you should visit the queen,
Good idea. I'll see if Dalek will give me her mobile number.
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Maybe you should visit the queen, and suggest another method for governing the country, if you believe that that democracy thing isn't good enough.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Referenda are not democracy. We have a democracy, everyone gets the chance to vote for someone to represent them. All those elected get access to all the information and advice they need to make the correct decisions for the country. Saying "What do you want us to do?" and throwing the responsibility back to the people just removes all the information and advice and intelligence from the decision making process.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends. Shed Petition[^]
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Nagy Vilmos wrote:
My current passport is relatively unblemished except for a few US visas. Pre-EU expansion I was filling up a passport every 2 years or so; that's a bonus.
That's a really stupid argument. The rest is well thought out though. Think you're missing some points though, like the adverse effect the freedom to move between Country and Country in search of work has on Britain. Also you say that we need to be art of the EU for the trade benefits, but we are not going to be able to have that forever, at some point we will need to embrace it fully(oner currency, one army, one government etc) or get kicked out. I say get out now and give us more time to prepare.
It may be a stupid argument, it is mine after all, but the point stands. Life is easier in than out. As for the U.S.E., it ain't not never going to happen.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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First up, I'd like some honest reporting about the EU, yes they waste money and no they are not elected; so is the House of Lords. You regularly hear the cost of the EU to Britain. Sure we pay in an afternoon's overtime for DD to the European Coffers and only get a gnat's tadger back in direct funds, but we benefit hugely from European countries buying our goods and services; think of it as a 1% export tariff to access the market which is a lot cheaper than the US. As a country we would lose a lot of business being outside the EU and, best guesses, put it at more than we'd gain from not paying for Brussels. My current passport is relatively unblemished except for a few US visas. Pre-EU expansion I was filling up a passport every 2 years or so; that's a bonus. Travel is made so much easier because of the EU, every day thosands of us travel around Europe without hindrance. I remember trying to get from France to Germany back in pre-Sengen days, you needed to allow an extra hour somedays just to cross the border. There is a lot the EU does badly, qv CAP, but a hell of a lot it does very well that is to our benefit. My fear is that we will throw the baby out with the bathwater. Come the day, I will vote to stay in the EU; with or without a new treaty.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Firstly we pay in £50,000,000 A DAY for the priveledge of giving up our borders, our fishing grounds, our right to self determination and law making and our sovereignty on the world stage. In return we have access to a market. We buy more from them than they do from us. They need us more than we need them. We have lots of trade with China, The US, The Commonwealth and other independent states, none of whom are in the EU. Do you really think if we pulled out that the EU states would stop selling us goods or allowing us free access to the market? If we pull out, Germany will be left footing the entire bill, and do you think they would enjoy that? As we were walking out the door, they would be looking for their hat and coat! Who does that leave? The feckless and the bankrupt. The UK could trade happily with the ESW, The Commonwealth and the BRICs and never worry about the EU again. BTW What could we possibly do with £20,000,000,000 a year?
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^]
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Mark_Wallace wrote:
Maybe you should visit the queen,
Good idea. I'll see if Dalek will give me her mobile number.
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This is getting political when the original post was meant to be about the idea of referenda, not the subject of the one in the news, but; I think this is quite good[^]
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends. Shed Petition[^]
What an excellent article. Nice find.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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This is getting political when the original post was meant to be about the idea of referenda, not the subject of the one in the news, but; I think this is quite good[^]
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends. Shed Petition[^]
Bookmarked for later consumption
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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It may be a stupid argument, it is mine after all, but the point stands. Life is easier in than out. As for the U.S.E., it ain't not never going to happen.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Of course it is going to happen. Germany isn't going to keep propping it up every time it goes tits-up without insisting on more control so it can actively minimise it's risk.
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Firstly we pay in £50,000,000 A DAY for the priveledge of giving up our borders, our fishing grounds, our right to self determination and law making and our sovereignty on the world stage. In return we have access to a market. We buy more from them than they do from us. They need us more than we need them. We have lots of trade with China, The US, The Commonwealth and other independent states, none of whom are in the EU. Do you really think if we pulled out that the EU states would stop selling us goods or allowing us free access to the market? If we pull out, Germany will be left footing the entire bill, and do you think they would enjoy that? As we were walking out the door, they would be looking for their hat and coat! Who does that leave? The feckless and the bankrupt. The UK could trade happily with the ESW, The Commonwealth and the BRICs and never worry about the EU again. BTW What could we possibly do with £20,000,000,000 a year?
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^]
Read Chris's link above.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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So Dave is going to give everyone in the UK the chance to say if they want to be in or out of Europe (will the Scots have left the UK by then?). The problem I have with referenda, is that like radio phone ins, the vast majority of those who take part are clueless idiots totally incapable of seeing any bigger or long term perspective. I don't want people like me contributing to major decisions for the country and its future. I'm an ill-informed moron. I don't want MPs making those decisions either. They're well-informed morons. I want them to ask people who are well-informed and not morons, and then do what they say is best for the long term future of the country. Leave me out of it, I make stupid decisions, and I'm damn sight smarter than most people I know.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends. Shed Petition[^]
ChrisElston wrote:
The problem I have with referenda, is that like radio phone ins, the vast majority of those who take part are clueless idiots totally incapable of seeing any bigger or long term perspective.
Yep, it's the domain of the armchair pundit and the disgruntled who need to vent their spleens. A lot of the anti-EU crowd talk about Switzerland and Norway being shining examples of being outside the EU, yet close enough to trade. Both of these countries still contribute a lot of money to the EU in order to trade within EFTA/EEA, but don't get a say in how things are run. A condition of the Swiss bilateral EU contract is adherence to various EU laws. So many laws in fact, that some 60% of all laws passed or amended in Switzerland come directly from the EU. As far as I am aware, Norway contributes the highest amount per capita to the EU. Both Switzerland and Norway are parties to Schengen, which means there is far more migration than occurs in the UK. About 25% of Switzerland's resident population is not Swiss, by contrast in the UK it's about 11-12%. For the UK it's not like leaving the EU would automatically lead to an extra supply of money that would otherwise end up in Europe, nor would it change any facet of British immigration. If we did vote to leave the EU in a referendum, we would have to negotiate terms to trade under EFTA/EEA and quite honestly, I can't see any of Cameron, Clegg or Miliband being able to get us a good deal in that respect. They're all equally useless. Whilst far from perfect, I think the UK leaving the EU would lead to the UK being worse off.