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PS4 Rumours

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  • D Dalek Dave

    I am seeing many rumours about Sony about to announce an announcement about a forthcoming announcement about the PS4. I am so looking forward to the new one, and I have some 'Wants' that I would like to see made real. Firstly, I would like the account to be linked to the controller, not the unit. That way I can play a two person game and both me and my opponent can score on our own achievement tables. Secondly, I would like in-game pre-loading, so that that as I get near the end on part one it is already pre-loading part two so that there is no lagging. (Particularly annoying during PGA Tour Golf where there is a 20 odd seconds delay between holes). Thirdly, Wouldn't it be great if it could be fully backwards compatible so that I do not need to get a mortgage to replace all my fave games! What else would be great? Anyone else excited? Will any of you be buying it on Day 1?

    --------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^]

    L Offline
    L Offline
    Lost User
    wrote on last edited by
    #12

    Dalek Dave wrote:

    about to announce an announcement about a forthcoming announcement

    Are you sure they will announce it?

    J 1 Reply Last reply
    0
    • L Lost User

      Dalek Dave wrote:

      about to announce an announcement about a forthcoming announcement

      Are you sure they will announce it?

      J Offline
      J Offline
      Jimmy Savile
      wrote on last edited by
      #13

      He must be or he wouldn't have announced it.

      1 Reply Last reply
      0
      • M Matthew Faithfull

        It's a referential joke, http://jimweller.com/2002/01/book-review-fstr.html[^] :sigh: never mind.

        "The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)

        N Offline
        N Offline
        Nagy Vilmos
        wrote on last edited by
        #14

        No it wasn't, it was txtspk and incorrect punctuation. We're too bloody good here to lower ourselves to imperfections.


        Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett

        C 1 Reply Last reply
        0
        • N Nagy Vilmos

          No it wasn't, it was txtspk and incorrect punctuation. We're too bloody good here to lower ourselves to imperfections.


          Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett

          C Offline
          C Offline
          Colin Mullikin
          wrote on last edited by
          #15

          You have no clue whether it was actually a reference to that book or not, so get off your damn high horse.

          The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin

          N 1 Reply Last reply
          0
          • M Matthew Faithfull

            It's a referential joke, http://jimweller.com/2002/01/book-review-fstr.html[^] :sigh: never mind.

            "The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)

            L Offline
            L Offline
            Lost User
            wrote on last edited by
            #16

            That link is blocked as "Phishing and Other Frauds".

            Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends. Shed Petition[^]

            M 1 Reply Last reply
            0
            • C Colin Mullikin

              You have no clue whether it was actually a reference to that book or not, so get off your damn high horse.

              The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin

              N Offline
              N Offline
              Nagy Vilmos
              wrote on last edited by
              #17

              As the alleged book has no alleged reference to txtspk except in a single piece of English Abuse in the review, I rest my case. What else do you think I've got this high horse for if not pontificating?


              Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett

              M C 2 Replies Last reply
              0
              • L Lost User

                That link is blocked as "Phishing and Other Frauds".

                Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends. Shed Petition[^]

                M Offline
                M Offline
                Matthew Faithfull
                wrote on last edited by
                #18

                OK. No idea why. I just put in a search for "Faster by James Gleick" which is what I was alluding to. I think Nagi had a sore head although he seems to have since found a 'cure'.

                "The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)

                1 Reply Last reply
                0
                • N Nagy Vilmos

                  As the alleged book has no alleged reference to txtspk except in a single piece of English Abuse in the review, I rest my case. What else do you think I've got this high horse for if not pontificating?


                  Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett

                  M Offline
                  M Offline
                  Matthew Faithfull
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #19

                  The alleged book has FSTR written across the cover. Your point is my point, I don't even text speak when I'm texting.

                  "The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)

                  L N 2 Replies Last reply
                  0
                  • M Matthew Faithfull

                    The alleged book has FSTR written across the cover. Your point is my point, I don't even text speak when I'm texting.

                    "The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)

                    L Offline
                    L Offline
                    Lost User
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #20

                    Matthew Faithfull wrote:

                    Your point is my point

                    This is getting kinky.

                    Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends. Shed Petition[^]

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    0
                    • N Nagy Vilmos

                      As the alleged book has no alleged reference to txtspk except in a single piece of English Abuse in the review, I rest my case. What else do you think I've got this high horse for if not pontificating?


                      Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett

                      C Offline
                      C Offline
                      Colin Mullikin
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #21

                      Nagy Vilmos wrote:

                      As the alleged book has no alleged reference to txtspk except in a single piece of English Abuse in the review, I rest my case.

                      Might want to do a little research first... Book cover[^] I'll bring the step-stool.

                      The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin

                      N 1 Reply Last reply
                      0
                      • M Matthew Faithfull

                        The alleged book has FSTR written across the cover. Your point is my point, I don't even text speak when I'm texting.

                        "The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)

                        N Offline
                        N Offline
                        Nagy Vilmos
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #22

                        Matthew Faithfull wrote:

                        Your point is my point

                        No it isn't. My point was that the use of txtspk and the incorrect punctuation meant I stopped reading. So whatever point you wanted to make was lost as your use of poor language put me off the rest of the content.


                        Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett

                        M 1 Reply Last reply
                        0
                        • C Colin Mullikin

                          Nagy Vilmos wrote:

                          As the alleged book has no alleged reference to txtspk except in a single piece of English Abuse in the review, I rest my case.

                          Might want to do a little research first... Book cover[^] I'll bring the step-stool.

                          The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin

                          N Offline
                          N Offline
                          Nagy Vilmos
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #23

                          Double abuse does not negate it, it just increases the offence.


                          Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • N Nagy Vilmos

                            Matthew Faithfull wrote:

                            Your point is my point

                            No it isn't. My point was that the use of txtspk and the incorrect punctuation meant I stopped reading. So whatever point you wanted to make was lost as your use of poor language put me off the rest of the content.


                            Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett

                            M Offline
                            M Offline
                            Matthew Faithfull
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #24

                            Exactly. You didn't even read my post and yet you understood it completely.:thumbsup:

                            "The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            0
                            • N Nagy Vilmos

                              Dalek Dave wrote:

                              What else would be great?

                              A keyboard, mouse and non-games software. Sorry, that's a 'computer'

                              Dalek Dave wrote:

                              Anyone else excited?

                              Nope.

                              Dalek Dave wrote:

                              Will any of you be buying it on Day 1?

                              I'll be washing my hair.


                              Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett

                              D Offline
                              D Offline
                              Dan Neely
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #25

                              Nagy Vilmos wrote:

                              Dalek Dave wrote:

                              What else would be great?

                              A keyboard, mouse and non-games software.
                               
                              Sorry, that's a 'computer'

                              Highly dated hardware on consoles has become a deadweight whose drag is limiting cross platform games ability to take advantage of all the extra horse power on our gaming PCs. While I've no more desire to game on a console than you, I am looking forward to new consoles with reasonably current hardware freeing use from the albatross of compatibility with and limitations caused 8 year old GPU models.

                              Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt

                              Q 1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • D Dalek Dave

                                I am seeing many rumours about Sony about to announce an announcement about a forthcoming announcement about the PS4. I am so looking forward to the new one, and I have some 'Wants' that I would like to see made real. Firstly, I would like the account to be linked to the controller, not the unit. That way I can play a two person game and both me and my opponent can score on our own achievement tables. Secondly, I would like in-game pre-loading, so that that as I get near the end on part one it is already pre-loading part two so that there is no lagging. (Particularly annoying during PGA Tour Golf where there is a 20 odd seconds delay between holes). Thirdly, Wouldn't it be great if it could be fully backwards compatible so that I do not need to get a mortgage to replace all my fave games! What else would be great? Anyone else excited? Will any of you be buying it on Day 1?

                                --------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^]

                                L Offline
                                L Offline
                                Lost User
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #26

                                Pony Slaystation makes a great dvd player.

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                0
                                • D Dan Neely

                                  Nagy Vilmos wrote:

                                  Dalek Dave wrote:

                                  What else would be great?

                                  A keyboard, mouse and non-games software.
                                   
                                  Sorry, that's a 'computer'

                                  Highly dated hardware on consoles has become a deadweight whose drag is limiting cross platform games ability to take advantage of all the extra horse power on our gaming PCs. While I've no more desire to game on a console than you, I am looking forward to new consoles with reasonably current hardware freeing use from the albatross of compatibility with and limitations caused 8 year old GPU models.

                                  Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt

                                  Q Offline
                                  Q Offline
                                  QuiJohn
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #27

                                  Dan Neely wrote:

                                  Highly dated hardware on consoles has become a deadweight whose drag is limiting cross platform games ability to take advantage of all the extra horse power on our gaming PCs. While I've no more desire to game on a console than you, I am looking forward to new consoles with reasonably current hardware freeing use from the albatross of compatibility with and limitations caused 8 year old GPU models.

                                  That's the way it is when EVERY new console comes out. Until 3 months later when the next $600 nVidia card comes out. In the early days of add-in 3D cards, I was a junkie: I bought the 3DFX Voodoo, the Voodoo 2, then a SECOND Voodoo 2 which could work with the first one, then (and this was my first mistake) a Voodoo 3. Then I switched to nVidia, and I can't remember the model numbers... but I started to get off the bleeding edge and stayed one or two revs from the top end, and was still paying $200-300 for a card. God, I upgraded constantly. I shudder to think how much I spent. And this doesn't even include the multiple motherboard, RAM, and occasional hard drive upgrades I went through. I justified it because, hey, I'm a developer! I even had VC++ 6.0 installed on it! Not that I ever ran it. Then I had a kid. :) Months in advance my gaming and all associated equipment (steering wheel, other controllers, sound system and so on) was put into a mostly finished room in the basement. So I spent lots of time down there. My wife didn't like that. So, for xmas 2003, about two weeks before our child was to be born, she bought me an Xbox. (This was pre-360 and the Xbox was pretty mature at that point.) This kept me on the (warm) upstairs, in the main room of the house. I was skeptical at first, as any hardcore gamer would be. But the simplicity of it was nice, then I tried Xbox Live and OH MY GOD it made life so much easier to hop into games. My first experience was on Star Wars: Clone Wars (very different from what that name means now) and the multiplayer experience was amazing. (The single player portion rather sucked.) Then Halo proved it could be used as an FPS, and Halo 2 revolutionized the entire online FPS experience. I haven't gone back to PC gaming since. At all. But I guess graphics have ceased to amaze me. The N64 and the 3DFX cards were the last time I was wowed by a leap forward in graphics. Everything since then has been incremental. Hell, I still have an Atari 7800 (2600 compatibile), Atari 5200 and a top lo

                                  D H 2 Replies Last reply
                                  0
                                  • D Dalek Dave

                                    I am seeing many rumours about Sony about to announce an announcement about a forthcoming announcement about the PS4. I am so looking forward to the new one, and I have some 'Wants' that I would like to see made real. Firstly, I would like the account to be linked to the controller, not the unit. That way I can play a two person game and both me and my opponent can score on our own achievement tables. Secondly, I would like in-game pre-loading, so that that as I get near the end on part one it is already pre-loading part two so that there is no lagging. (Particularly annoying during PGA Tour Golf where there is a 20 odd seconds delay between holes). Thirdly, Wouldn't it be great if it could be fully backwards compatible so that I do not need to get a mortgage to replace all my fave games! What else would be great? Anyone else excited? Will any of you be buying it on Day 1?

                                    --------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^]

                                    W Offline
                                    W Offline
                                    wizardzz
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #28

                                    If all of those wishes were granted, I would definitely buy it day 1.

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    0
                                    • Q QuiJohn

                                      Dan Neely wrote:

                                      Highly dated hardware on consoles has become a deadweight whose drag is limiting cross platform games ability to take advantage of all the extra horse power on our gaming PCs. While I've no more desire to game on a console than you, I am looking forward to new consoles with reasonably current hardware freeing use from the albatross of compatibility with and limitations caused 8 year old GPU models.

                                      That's the way it is when EVERY new console comes out. Until 3 months later when the next $600 nVidia card comes out. In the early days of add-in 3D cards, I was a junkie: I bought the 3DFX Voodoo, the Voodoo 2, then a SECOND Voodoo 2 which could work with the first one, then (and this was my first mistake) a Voodoo 3. Then I switched to nVidia, and I can't remember the model numbers... but I started to get off the bleeding edge and stayed one or two revs from the top end, and was still paying $200-300 for a card. God, I upgraded constantly. I shudder to think how much I spent. And this doesn't even include the multiple motherboard, RAM, and occasional hard drive upgrades I went through. I justified it because, hey, I'm a developer! I even had VC++ 6.0 installed on it! Not that I ever ran it. Then I had a kid. :) Months in advance my gaming and all associated equipment (steering wheel, other controllers, sound system and so on) was put into a mostly finished room in the basement. So I spent lots of time down there. My wife didn't like that. So, for xmas 2003, about two weeks before our child was to be born, she bought me an Xbox. (This was pre-360 and the Xbox was pretty mature at that point.) This kept me on the (warm) upstairs, in the main room of the house. I was skeptical at first, as any hardcore gamer would be. But the simplicity of it was nice, then I tried Xbox Live and OH MY GOD it made life so much easier to hop into games. My first experience was on Star Wars: Clone Wars (very different from what that name means now) and the multiplayer experience was amazing. (The single player portion rather sucked.) Then Halo proved it could be used as an FPS, and Halo 2 revolutionized the entire online FPS experience. I haven't gone back to PC gaming since. At all. But I guess graphics have ceased to amaze me. The N64 and the 3DFX cards were the last time I was wowed by a leap forward in graphics. Everything since then has been incremental. Hell, I still have an Atari 7800 (2600 compatibile), Atari 5200 and a top lo

                                      D Offline
                                      D Offline
                                      Dan Neely
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #29

                                      My favorite genre, turn based strategy, is at best poorly represented on consoles; and the main way it would stop the upgrade cycle is by stopping me from gaming entirely. The longest I've ever been able to use a controller (any brand) before my hands started cramping up painfully was ~30 minutes; and that was in a game when I was only hitting buttons every few seconds. As for the other examples you've cited; I've long held the opinion that if you want to be a real Guitar Hero you need a Real Guitar(tm) with strings instead of plastic buttons and none of the examples I've seen of Wii/Kinect type games have ever made me want to try playing them.

                                      Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      0
                                      • D Dalek Dave

                                        I am seeing many rumours about Sony about to announce an announcement about a forthcoming announcement about the PS4. I am so looking forward to the new one, and I have some 'Wants' that I would like to see made real. Firstly, I would like the account to be linked to the controller, not the unit. That way I can play a two person game and both me and my opponent can score on our own achievement tables. Secondly, I would like in-game pre-loading, so that that as I get near the end on part one it is already pre-loading part two so that there is no lagging. (Particularly annoying during PGA Tour Golf where there is a 20 odd seconds delay between holes). Thirdly, Wouldn't it be great if it could be fully backwards compatible so that I do not need to get a mortgage to replace all my fave games! What else would be great? Anyone else excited? Will any of you be buying it on Day 1?

                                        --------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^]

                                        B Offline
                                        B Offline
                                        BobJanova
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #30

                                        Not intelligently managing preloading and memory is the game's fault, not the console's. And PC games are not immune from it either.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        0
                                        • Q QuiJohn

                                          Dan Neely wrote:

                                          Highly dated hardware on consoles has become a deadweight whose drag is limiting cross platform games ability to take advantage of all the extra horse power on our gaming PCs. While I've no more desire to game on a console than you, I am looking forward to new consoles with reasonably current hardware freeing use from the albatross of compatibility with and limitations caused 8 year old GPU models.

                                          That's the way it is when EVERY new console comes out. Until 3 months later when the next $600 nVidia card comes out. In the early days of add-in 3D cards, I was a junkie: I bought the 3DFX Voodoo, the Voodoo 2, then a SECOND Voodoo 2 which could work with the first one, then (and this was my first mistake) a Voodoo 3. Then I switched to nVidia, and I can't remember the model numbers... but I started to get off the bleeding edge and stayed one or two revs from the top end, and was still paying $200-300 for a card. God, I upgraded constantly. I shudder to think how much I spent. And this doesn't even include the multiple motherboard, RAM, and occasional hard drive upgrades I went through. I justified it because, hey, I'm a developer! I even had VC++ 6.0 installed on it! Not that I ever ran it. Then I had a kid. :) Months in advance my gaming and all associated equipment (steering wheel, other controllers, sound system and so on) was put into a mostly finished room in the basement. So I spent lots of time down there. My wife didn't like that. So, for xmas 2003, about two weeks before our child was to be born, she bought me an Xbox. (This was pre-360 and the Xbox was pretty mature at that point.) This kept me on the (warm) upstairs, in the main room of the house. I was skeptical at first, as any hardcore gamer would be. But the simplicity of it was nice, then I tried Xbox Live and OH MY GOD it made life so much easier to hop into games. My first experience was on Star Wars: Clone Wars (very different from what that name means now) and the multiplayer experience was amazing. (The single player portion rather sucked.) Then Halo proved it could be used as an FPS, and Halo 2 revolutionized the entire online FPS experience. I haven't gone back to PC gaming since. At all. But I guess graphics have ceased to amaze me. The N64 and the 3DFX cards were the last time I was wowed by a leap forward in graphics. Everything since then has been incremental. Hell, I still have an Atari 7800 (2600 compatibile), Atari 5200 and a top lo

                                          H Offline
                                          H Offline
                                          H Brydon
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #31

                                          David Kentley wrote:

                                          Anyway. My point is, you too can stop the cycle of upgrade madness ;) I'm not sure how many steps the program is. It's somewhere between 1 and 14.

                                          I believe its generally called a 12 step program. :)

                                          -- Harvey

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