Wow.. SCRUM is **horrible**...
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That's actually quite the opposite. I used to get along great with my boss because we both enjoyed the "cool / unofficial" environment where you just want to get stuff done and move forward and scratch each others back environment. I think his boss wanted us to do SCRUM on this project, but my boss doesn't really want to conform to it. He never shows up to stand ups (hell, nobody does), SCRUM rules don't apply to him, etc. He never cared about documenting ANYTHING... granted that was an issue too though lol, because half the stuff he would tell me to do, i would be like "wtf? never heard of that before" and he expected you to be a mind reader. Thats the issue though. We are trying to do SCRUM, but as I said, SCRUM rules don't apply to my boss, so he does the "hey, why don't you re-write this to work like this?" and I say "well, this is what the PM wanted" and he says "I don't care what the PM wanted, this is what I want".
SledgeHammer01 wrote:
I think his boss wanted us to do SCRUM on this project, but my boss doesn't really want to conform to it. He never shows up to stand ups (hell, nobody does), SCRUM rules don't apply to him, etc.
I think that might be the root of your problem. Sounds like some manager was playing a game of Buzzword Bingo and decided he needed to get one of those SCRUM things. Some of the things you have stated that you don't like about SCRUM indicate that you are a Gunslinger, wanting to shoot from the hip and work in your organization under your own terms. "Just doing cool stuff" is neither an effective model for adding specific business value nor a way to capitalize on an organization's strengths. You have essentially said that you consider yourself a gatekeeper for adding business value through technology and "the coolest thing" is the one you want to do.
SledgeHammer01 wrote:
We are trying to do SCRUM, but as I said, SCRUM rules don't apply to my boss, so he does the "hey, why don't you re-write this to work like this?" and I say "well, this is what the PM wanted" and he says "I don't care what the PM wanted, this is what I want".
This is likely irreconcilable, depending on your organizational structure. If you have no one to escalate a conflict between your Product Owner and your Manager, you have a problem. In SCRUM, the Product Owner dictates priorities, and there is no "manager" that can override the Product Owner's priority list with the Development Team. Don't blame SCRUM for your organization's failures. It's not a product that can be piloted; it's a framework for cultivating and nurturing a mindset change.
"I need build Skynet. Plz send code"
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SledgeHammer01 wrote:
Apperently though, SCRUM doesn't apply to my boss.
"Selective agile development" isn't "agile development". I work at an agile shop and our daily scrums are anything but stressful. I (and my manager) always know what my workload is, and he's able to juggle/postpone fixes and features based on the team's capacity. I find the user story paradigm helpful because it forces stakeholders to clearly specify what they need built/done. If more work is required, a new task is created, and time estimates automatically increase (or decrease) as required. It seems your shop (despite their best intentions) may not be using the agile development process the way it's intended to be used. :( /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
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I've worked for a lot of different companies, but this company is the first one where they have been "official" / "gone overboard" on SCRUM. Why does anybody use this garbage methodology? It is HORRIBLE. Personally, I prefer a cool environment where everybody on the team works together, wants to make the product cool, you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours, etc. SCRUM just breeds a "me" mentality. Sorry Bob, I don't care about your issue until you open a defect and get it approved by a PM and get it inserted into a sprint. Yeah Jim, that feature sounds cool!! Write up a user story and submit it to the PM for approval and get it inserted into the current or future sprint. SCRUM is just anti-team work, anti-pride of ownership, anti-innovation. I used to want to make my product cool and get along with my fellow team members, but now with SCRUM, I have to be a dick and say "write it up and get the PM to approve it". Apperently though, SCRUM doesn't apply to my boss. He can come and randomly tell me to make changes when he is neither the PM or the PO. I'm also discouraged from doing anything above and beyond because everything requires a ton of paper work and 73 people to get involved. Use to be.. hey John, can you bust that out real quick? You mean change this bool to false? Sure, no problem!! Be done in a sec. Now its "submit all the proper paperwork and get the PM to approve it". Worst methodology ever. Thoughts?
I don't think SCRUM is horrible, I think your manager is. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Now replace guns with SCRUM and the second people with manager ;)
It's an OO world.
public class Naerling : Lazy<Person>{
public void DoWork(){ throw new NotImplementedException(); }
} -
I've worked for a lot of different companies, but this company is the first one where they have been "official" / "gone overboard" on SCRUM. Why does anybody use this garbage methodology? It is HORRIBLE. Personally, I prefer a cool environment where everybody on the team works together, wants to make the product cool, you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours, etc. SCRUM just breeds a "me" mentality. Sorry Bob, I don't care about your issue until you open a defect and get it approved by a PM and get it inserted into a sprint. Yeah Jim, that feature sounds cool!! Write up a user story and submit it to the PM for approval and get it inserted into the current or future sprint. SCRUM is just anti-team work, anti-pride of ownership, anti-innovation. I used to want to make my product cool and get along with my fellow team members, but now with SCRUM, I have to be a dick and say "write it up and get the PM to approve it". Apperently though, SCRUM doesn't apply to my boss. He can come and randomly tell me to make changes when he is neither the PM or the PO. I'm also discouraged from doing anything above and beyond because everything requires a ton of paper work and 73 people to get involved. Use to be.. hey John, can you bust that out real quick? You mean change this bool to false? Sure, no problem!! Be done in a sec. Now its "submit all the proper paperwork and get the PM to approve it". Worst methodology ever. Thoughts?
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"you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" - that only works in teams made of responsible and self-made people. But this is very uncommon nowadays. Instead, there are tons of half-educated fake players in IT. A typical dialog: - Sam: Why it doesn't work? - John: This is Tom's fault, he made a bug. He always injects bugs. - Tom: No, it does not work due to John's bug, this is his sole fault. SCRUM is here to fix that submarginal situation by putting a bit more responsibility in interactions between team members. So, if you hear some company uses SCRUM then you have to already know that the company experience troubles with team members.
Well, no, it didn't work like that 100% :). I just meant, if a guy was waiting on you and it was a quick 5 second / 5 minute thing that you could whip, you should. Not demand a ticket be opened up.
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SledgeHammer01 wrote:
Apperently though, SCRUM doesn't apply to my boss.
"Selective agile development" isn't "agile development". I work at an agile shop and our daily scrums are anything but stressful. I (and my manager) always know what my workload is, and he's able to juggle/postpone fixes and features based on the team's capacity. I find the user story paradigm helpful because it forces stakeholders to clearly specify what they need built/done. If more work is required, a new task is created, and time estimates automatically increase (or decrease) as required. It seems your shop (despite their best intentions) may not be using the agile development process the way it's intended to be used. :( /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
I think some of the other groups are using scrum "successfully", but in the other groups, I've noticed that the PM calls the shots, and the developers manager generally leaves them alone. If that is how we worked on this team, that would be cool. Unfortunately, our PM isn't an experienced SCRUM master and she isn't technical enough to actually specify what she wants. We get user stories like "as an admin, I'd like to be able to manage users" and she doesn't take into account any of the details. She is also the product owner and has barely used the product to this day. The other product owner / stakeholder was involved for a week or two, but doesn't get involved anymore. Which are all epic fails of SCRUM.
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SledgeHammer01 wrote:
I think his boss wanted us to do SCRUM on this project, but my boss doesn't really want to conform to it. He never shows up to stand ups (hell, nobody does), SCRUM rules don't apply to him, etc.
I think that might be the root of your problem. Sounds like some manager was playing a game of Buzzword Bingo and decided he needed to get one of those SCRUM things. Some of the things you have stated that you don't like about SCRUM indicate that you are a Gunslinger, wanting to shoot from the hip and work in your organization under your own terms. "Just doing cool stuff" is neither an effective model for adding specific business value nor a way to capitalize on an organization's strengths. You have essentially said that you consider yourself a gatekeeper for adding business value through technology and "the coolest thing" is the one you want to do.
SledgeHammer01 wrote:
We are trying to do SCRUM, but as I said, SCRUM rules don't apply to my boss, so he does the "hey, why don't you re-write this to work like this?" and I say "well, this is what the PM wanted" and he says "I don't care what the PM wanted, this is what I want".
This is likely irreconcilable, depending on your organizational structure. If you have no one to escalate a conflict between your Product Owner and your Manager, you have a problem. In SCRUM, the Product Owner dictates priorities, and there is no "manager" that can override the Product Owner's priority list with the Development Team. Don't blame SCRUM for your organization's failures. It's not a product that can be piloted; it's a framework for cultivating and nurturing a mindset change.
"I need build Skynet. Plz send code"
Not necessarily trying to be a gun slinger lol. I guess I was a bit frustrated before when we had no management and just did everything randomly. Problem is now we have gone formal, but the manager is still stuck in his random ways which is in conflict with SCRUM. I agree... he should have ZERO say on the product, but unfortunately, he thinks he does because the PM / Owner / Scrum Master who doesn't show up to scrum meetings doesn't really know whats going on.
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I think some of the other groups are using scrum "successfully", but in the other groups, I've noticed that the PM calls the shots, and the developers manager generally leaves them alone. If that is how we worked on this team, that would be cool. Unfortunately, our PM isn't an experienced SCRUM master and she isn't technical enough to actually specify what she wants. We get user stories like "as an admin, I'd like to be able to manage users" and she doesn't take into account any of the details. She is also the product owner and has barely used the product to this day. The other product owner / stakeholder was involved for a week or two, but doesn't get involved anymore. Which are all epic fails of SCRUM.
The situation you describe is unfortunate. An agile development process will not fix incomplete or missing specifications and lack of planning. /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
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I've worked for a lot of different companies, but this company is the first one where they have been "official" / "gone overboard" on SCRUM. Why does anybody use this garbage methodology? It is HORRIBLE. Personally, I prefer a cool environment where everybody on the team works together, wants to make the product cool, you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours, etc. SCRUM just breeds a "me" mentality. Sorry Bob, I don't care about your issue until you open a defect and get it approved by a PM and get it inserted into a sprint. Yeah Jim, that feature sounds cool!! Write up a user story and submit it to the PM for approval and get it inserted into the current or future sprint. SCRUM is just anti-team work, anti-pride of ownership, anti-innovation. I used to want to make my product cool and get along with my fellow team members, but now with SCRUM, I have to be a dick and say "write it up and get the PM to approve it". Apperently though, SCRUM doesn't apply to my boss. He can come and randomly tell me to make changes when he is neither the PM or the PO. I'm also discouraged from doing anything above and beyond because everything requires a ton of paper work and 73 people to get involved. Use to be.. hey John, can you bust that out real quick? You mean change this bool to false? Sure, no problem!! Be done in a sec. Now its "submit all the proper paperwork and get the PM to approve it". Worst methodology ever. Thoughts?
SledgeHammer01 wrote:
SCRUM is just anti-team work, anti-pride of ownership, anti-innovation.
I used to want to make my product cool and get along with my fellow team members, but now with SCRUM, I have to be a dick and say "write it up and get the PM to approve it".Presumably this isn't sarcastic... If you are like most professional developers no one cares about your opinion and certainly not what you think is cool. And that isn't flippant because what matters to the company is sales. Which is driven by customers. So the customers opinion matters and what they think is cool matters. This is often filtered through sales and business analysts so their opinion is of secondary importance as well.
SledgeHammer01 wrote:
Apperently though, SCRUM doesn't apply to my boss..Worst methodology ever.
That is a management failure and a process implementation failure. It has nothing to do with a specific process methodology.
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I personally think that SCRUM is fine, but it's very easy to misuse it beyond sane limits. If it's not managed and run properly, it can be horrible. Idiot managers can make it a nightmare (which happened in my previous company).
"Real men drive manual transmission" - Rajesh.
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Not necessarily trying to be a gun slinger lol. I guess I was a bit frustrated before when we had no management and just did everything randomly. Problem is now we have gone formal, but the manager is still stuck in his random ways which is in conflict with SCRUM. I agree... he should have ZERO say on the product, but unfortunately, he thinks he does because the PM / Owner / Scrum Master who doesn't show up to scrum meetings doesn't really know whats going on.
Quote:
the PM / Owner / Scrum Master who doesn't show up to scrum meetings
Well there's your problem (or at least one of them). Unless everyone on the team is at least minimally aware of what is going on, and what the priorities are, then Scrum isn't going to work for your team. Having a boss who says "Do that SCRUM thing" and then doesn't do it himself is usually a real killer for any project. I am a Certified Scrum Master and have only had problems when the management want to do SCRUM because it sounds cool and forward thinking but don't actually want to change the way they do things. I suggest you give up now and go back waterfall project management and only working on what you feel like doing at the time... it won't be any better and your projects will still be messed up and not what the stakeholders want - but you will enjoy it more.:cool:
- Life in the fast lane is only fun if you live in a country with no speed limits. - Of all the things I have lost, it is my mind that I miss the most. - I vaguely remember having a good memory...
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Project management ideologies were created to, and continue to exist to, give PM's and other noncoder assholes jobs. This industry is diluted and hurt by people wanting to be part of it, simply because it pays well, and there is still some growth. These people don't want to, or simply can't code, so they take any other approach to gain entry. If, nay, when I start my company, everybody will have the ability to code, if you are in a non coding position, that one of your previous jobs will have been coding or you are currently learning. Everyone should understand the love affair with coding, the frustration, the rewards. Everyone. Lawyers, sales, human resources. Everyone.
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That's actually quite the opposite. I used to get along great with my boss because we both enjoyed the "cool / unofficial" environment where you just want to get stuff done and move forward and scratch each others back environment. I think his boss wanted us to do SCRUM on this project, but my boss doesn't really want to conform to it. He never shows up to stand ups (hell, nobody does), SCRUM rules don't apply to him, etc. He never cared about documenting ANYTHING... granted that was an issue too though lol, because half the stuff he would tell me to do, i would be like "wtf? never heard of that before" and he expected you to be a mind reader. Thats the issue though. We are trying to do SCRUM, but as I said, SCRUM rules don't apply to my boss, so he does the "hey, why don't you re-write this to work like this?" and I say "well, this is what the PM wanted" and he says "I don't care what the PM wanted, this is what I want".
SledgeHammer01 wrote:
I think his boss wanted us to do SCRUM on this project, but my boss doesn't really want to conform to it. He never shows up to stand ups (hell, nobody does), SCRUM rules don't apply to him, etc.
Standard problem in business is that software development is almost always an unknown cost - often wildly unregulated. Which is not a good situation to be in. Process methodology when actually successfully used can provide proven benefits in terms providing real cost estimates, real delivery schedules, real bug reduction, etc. Doing it successfully is hard however. And note that this has nothing to do with a specific methodology. It is true for all of them. Of course the alternative is chaos which means no control at all.
SledgeHammer01 wrote:
Thats the issue though. We are trying to do SCRUM, but as I said, SCRUM
Yes the problem is your boss. And probably your bosses boss. That however has nothing to do with SCRUM.
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I think some of the other groups are using scrum "successfully", but in the other groups, I've noticed that the PM calls the shots, and the developers manager generally leaves them alone. If that is how we worked on this team, that would be cool. Unfortunately, our PM isn't an experienced SCRUM master and she isn't technical enough to actually specify what she wants. We get user stories like "as an admin, I'd like to be able to manage users" and she doesn't take into account any of the details. She is also the product owner and has barely used the product to this day. The other product owner / stakeholder was involved for a week or two, but doesn't get involved anymore. Which are all epic fails of SCRUM.
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I agree: when scrum is applied religiously it can disrupt the development process and alienate the participants and don't get me started on the waste of time that are daily scrums! I've used a modified system in the past, picking out the bits that best serve the team and the process, in that order. Scrum puts the process first and people second which, to me, is the wrong way round if you expect to get buy-in from the people you are expecting to build your system.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
mark merrens wrote:
Scrum puts the process first and people second which, to me, is the wrong way round if you expect to get buy-in from the people you are expecting to build your system.
If it wasn't "work" then you wouldn't get paid to do it. Same as if you went to your local steak restaurant and instead of a steak the waiter delivered a salad to you because they 'decided' that you needed it instead of the steak.
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Project management ideologies were created to, and continue to exist to, give PM's and other noncoder assholes jobs. This industry is diluted and hurt by people wanting to be part of it, simply because it pays well, and there is still some growth. These people don't want to, or simply can't code, so they take any other approach to gain entry. If, nay, when I start my company, everybody will have the ability to code, if you are in a non coding position, that one of your previous jobs will have been coding or you are currently learning. Everyone should understand the love affair with coding, the frustration, the rewards. Everyone. Lawyers, sales, human resources. Everyone.
wizardzz wrote:
If, nay, when I start my company, everybody will have the ability to code, if you are in a non coding position, that one of your previous jobs will have been coding or you are currently learning. Everyone should understand the love affair with coding, the frustration, the rewards. Everyone. Lawyers, sales, human resources. Everyone.
Good luck with that. The most significant role in a company that actually succeeds is that at least someone must have the ability to sell something. And to do that over and over again. Whether you create software, how you create it, how happy you are doing it and even how well the software actually works or even exists it all means nothing without sales. And with a good sales person will mean nothing as to whether everyone gets paid. But without sales NO one gets paid.
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mark merrens wrote:
Scrum puts the process first and people second which, to me, is the wrong way round if you expect to get buy-in from the people you are expecting to build your system.
If it wasn't "work" then you wouldn't get paid to do it. Same as if you went to your local steak restaurant and instead of a steak the waiter delivered a salad to you because they 'decided' that you needed it instead of the steak.
I don't get your point - not sure how it relates to what I said.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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I think some of the other groups are using scrum "successfully", but in the other groups, I've noticed that the PM calls the shots, and the developers manager generally leaves them alone. If that is how we worked on this team, that would be cool. Unfortunately, our PM isn't an experienced SCRUM master and she isn't technical enough to actually specify what she wants. We get user stories like "as an admin, I'd like to be able to manage users" and she doesn't take into account any of the details. She is also the product owner and has barely used the product to this day. The other product owner / stakeholder was involved for a week or two, but doesn't get involved anymore. Which are all epic fails of SCRUM.
SledgeHammer01 wrote:
Which are all epic fails of SCRUM.
In fact it says nothing at all about SCRUM. You have described failure scenarios for a company that would be true regardless of methodology or no methodology at all. You have several people who are not doing their job. If those people were doing an absolutely perfect job and yet the all of the developers on the team were absolute idiot slackers then the project would still fail.
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wizardzz wrote:
If, nay, when I start my company, everybody will have the ability to code, if you are in a non coding position, that one of your previous jobs will have been coding or you are currently learning. Everyone should understand the love affair with coding, the frustration, the rewards. Everyone. Lawyers, sales, human resources. Everyone.
Good luck with that. The most significant role in a company that actually succeeds is that at least someone must have the ability to sell something. And to do that over and over again. Whether you create software, how you create it, how happy you are doing it and even how well the software actually works or even exists it all means nothing without sales. And with a good sales person will mean nothing as to whether everyone gets paid. But without sales NO one gets paid.
Where in my statements do I say there will be no sales people? Where do I even imply that? I know many people who have gone from coding to sales, and I'll never hire a salesman that never professionally coded. Believe me, there are plenty of developers that want to move to sales. I see the results of salesman who work for commissions without a clue as to what development entails. It's shitty deadlines and bad promises that "must be kept at all costs" even if the cost is greater than that one sale, the man hours of developers to build product or feature is higher than the revenue generated to company minus sales commission. I have seen this happen firsthand, and you know what the decision came down to? Saving face and keeping one more customer away from a competitor. Meanwhile, to the salesman, the commission won't be docked, so what do they care about developers' long nights? The salesman biting off more than the team should ever try to chew is the only winner, and continues to be rewarded for making a decision that's bad for the company.
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Project management ideologies were created to, and continue to exist to, give PM's and other noncoder assholes jobs. This industry is diluted and hurt by people wanting to be part of it, simply because it pays well, and there is still some growth. These people don't want to, or simply can't code, so they take any other approach to gain entry. If, nay, when I start my company, everybody will have the ability to code, if you are in a non coding position, that one of your previous jobs will have been coding or you are currently learning. Everyone should understand the love affair with coding, the frustration, the rewards. Everyone. Lawyers, sales, human resources. Everyone.
wizardzz wrote:
If, nay, when I start my company, everybody will have the ability to code, if you are in a non coding position, that one of your previous jobs will have been coding or you are currently learning. Everyone should understand the love affair with coding, the frustration, the rewards. Everyone. Lawyers, sales, human resources. Everyone.
Not everybody has the ability to code. Not everyone can be taught to code. Thats why not everybody in the world codes. Has nothing to do with liking it or hating it. Lots of people just don't have the ability to think in a linear, step-by-step, methological way like that. To me & you, a for loop makes perfect sense, but to somebody who has no knowledge of programing, they just don't get the concepts of data structures, etc. work. You can teach anybody to program to some extent, but to do it professionally? Nope.
