The cost of software
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Christopher Duncan wrote:
As a professional software developer, I can't imagine why someone would go to all the trouble of writing professional quality software and then selling it for a dollar
Because £1 x 10000 = £100 * 100, so for small throwaway apps the model makes sense. Do anything complicated and that model breaks down I suppose, unless you can do things like sell cloud services on the back of your app. I wonder if there are any stats on this sort of thing (cost of development vs sales vs profit) for device based apps?
“Education is not the piling on of learning, information, data, facts, skills, or abilities - that's training or instruction - but is rather making visible what is hidden as a seed”
“One of the greatest problems of our time is that many are schooled but few are educated”Sir Thomas More (1478 – 1535)
Well, at least you're not expecting to sell a million copies like everyone else. That said, in all but rare cases, even 10k sales of a paid app is massively unrealistic. 99 cents times 100 sales, something you might achieve, is less than most developers make before lunch. And you're going to spend way more than half a day on it.
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
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After spending a few hundred bucks on an iPad Mini, I went through the process of setting everything up. Hadn't used Instapaper and wanted to give it a try so I set up an account on their website and then went to download the iPad app. At that point, I hesitated because of the cost. It was 4 dollars. Really. After a brief moment I realized how stupid that was and bought the app. It's nice getting stuff for free or on the cheap but this really bugs me. These days, software is supposed to be free and if you actually have to pay for it, gosh, it really shouldn't cost more than 99 cents or it's way overpriced. As a professional software developer, I can't imagine why someone would go to all the trouble of writing professional quality software and then selling it for a dollar. Or even 4. This is why I don't write mobile apps on the side. I mean, seriously, try getting a plumber out to your house for 4 dollars. [edit] Since this appears to be the common thinking... Guys - you're not going to sell a million copies. You'll be lucky to sell 100. Lots of studies on this and the fallacy of Gold Rush thinking. And so the question - who are these people who are willing to work so cheaply, and are they free this weekend to mow my lawn? :-D [/edit]
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
While I tend to agree that you won't sell more than a hundred or so, in defense of the "sell a million" argument I would add that if you're doing it as a part time hobby, nobody would be paying you for that time anyway. So you might win £100, you might win a million... you are taking that gamble but either way you make more money than you would have by not doing it. Even if you make exactly zero you just learnt a new skill. Contrast that with the economics of selling apps as a serious business - if your dev shop specifically tries to sell apps only it's much like making movies in that a single massive hit pays for the countless rubbish apps that you did along the way, so the key is quantity over quality. Take Rovio as an example as they've made lots and lots of games before Angry Birds solved their financial problems.
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While I tend to agree that you won't sell more than a hundred or so, in defense of the "sell a million" argument I would add that if you're doing it as a part time hobby, nobody would be paying you for that time anyway. So you might win £100, you might win a million... you are taking that gamble but either way you make more money than you would have by not doing it. Even if you make exactly zero you just learnt a new skill. Contrast that with the economics of selling apps as a serious business - if your dev shop specifically tries to sell apps only it's much like making movies in that a single massive hit pays for the countless rubbish apps that you did along the way, so the key is quantity over quality. Take Rovio as an example as they've made lots and lots of games before Angry Birds solved their financial problems.
That'a a fair point. I think what bothers me is the devaluation of what I do for a living. Once upon a time, spending $100 on professional quality software was pretty cheap. I routinely spend way more than that for dev, audio and video tools. Try listing an app on the App Store for $100 and you'll get death threats. With mobile being all the rage these days, and rightly so for the benefits it brings, why am I expected to work for staggeringly ridiculous prices in mobile compared to desktop software? That would suggest that mobile apps are only worth a tiny fraction of their desktop brethren. And yet, everyone's talking about how the desktop PC is legacy and destined to die. I don't think there's a legitimate reason for this pricing in terms of cost / value. It's just a trend that got started (looking at you, Apple). And as a guy who gets paid to sling code, I dislike the notion that we should work for less than minimum wage.
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
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After spending a few hundred bucks on an iPad Mini, I went through the process of setting everything up. Hadn't used Instapaper and wanted to give it a try so I set up an account on their website and then went to download the iPad app. At that point, I hesitated because of the cost. It was 4 dollars. Really. After a brief moment I realized how stupid that was and bought the app. It's nice getting stuff for free or on the cheap but this really bugs me. These days, software is supposed to be free and if you actually have to pay for it, gosh, it really shouldn't cost more than 99 cents or it's way overpriced. As a professional software developer, I can't imagine why someone would go to all the trouble of writing professional quality software and then selling it for a dollar. Or even 4. This is why I don't write mobile apps on the side. I mean, seriously, try getting a plumber out to your house for 4 dollars. [edit] Since this appears to be the common thinking... Guys - you're not going to sell a million copies. You'll be lucky to sell 100. Lots of studies on this and the fallacy of Gold Rush thinking. And so the question - who are these people who are willing to work so cheaply, and are they free this weekend to mow my lawn? :-D [/edit]
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
Yes, the idea that you are going to sell 1,000,000 is wishful thinking. Having said that, we have downloaded and paid for a number of small educational application for our daughter over the past 4 years (learning to read, simple math, U.S.A. state geography, etc). These are not amazing apps by any means, but they served a purpose and we recommend them to our friends with young children and teachers at her school. Also, having an app from a given company/developer, we're more likely to go back to them for future apps. If they can build a reusable engine and generate new apps, why not? Has anyone on here successfully sold multiple copies of a mobile app? Tim
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After spending a few hundred bucks on an iPad Mini, I went through the process of setting everything up. Hadn't used Instapaper and wanted to give it a try so I set up an account on their website and then went to download the iPad app. At that point, I hesitated because of the cost. It was 4 dollars. Really. After a brief moment I realized how stupid that was and bought the app. It's nice getting stuff for free or on the cheap but this really bugs me. These days, software is supposed to be free and if you actually have to pay for it, gosh, it really shouldn't cost more than 99 cents or it's way overpriced. As a professional software developer, I can't imagine why someone would go to all the trouble of writing professional quality software and then selling it for a dollar. Or even 4. This is why I don't write mobile apps on the side. I mean, seriously, try getting a plumber out to your house for 4 dollars. [edit] Since this appears to be the common thinking... Guys - you're not going to sell a million copies. You'll be lucky to sell 100. Lots of studies on this and the fallacy of Gold Rush thinking. And so the question - who are these people who are willing to work so cheaply, and are they free this weekend to mow my lawn? :-D [/edit]
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
About every other year I teach the neighborhood children a valuable lesson in economics. I get a knock on the door in May with a bright faced, optimistic youth begging to mow my lawn. Invariably I negotiate down from a million billion dollars to five dollars a month for twice a week mowings. They quit after the first try. Don't think I am taking advantage, I actually have a lawn guy who I pay; I just think kids these days don't understand what it costs to work and labor and earn. With regard to the app price; I think some of the sentiment is; it's just a buck as a marketing strategy. Many apps are hobbies and resumes so the allure of making a grand on top of the pie is an added bonus. With that said, I have looked into the economics of the market in consideration of developing an app and there is no reason a 100 hour app shouldn't sell for a dollar. You can do a lot in 100 hours with a novel concept. Now, would I spend the effort of an entire team for several years worth of work on that peanut, probably not, unless I had an investor and great marketing.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost "All users always want Excel" --Ennis Lynch
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About every other year I teach the neighborhood children a valuable lesson in economics. I get a knock on the door in May with a bright faced, optimistic youth begging to mow my lawn. Invariably I negotiate down from a million billion dollars to five dollars a month for twice a week mowings. They quit after the first try. Don't think I am taking advantage, I actually have a lawn guy who I pay; I just think kids these days don't understand what it costs to work and labor and earn. With regard to the app price; I think some of the sentiment is; it's just a buck as a marketing strategy. Many apps are hobbies and resumes so the allure of making a grand on top of the pie is an added bonus. With that said, I have looked into the economics of the market in consideration of developing an app and there is no reason a 100 hour app shouldn't sell for a dollar. You can do a lot in 100 hours with a novel concept. Now, would I spend the effort of an entire team for several years worth of work on that peanut, probably not, unless I had an investor and great marketing.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost "All users always want Excel" --Ennis Lynch
Along those lines, if you sell 100 copies, which is probably a realistic figure, you're working for $1 an hour. I could be wrong, but I think you're worth more than that. :)
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
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Yes, the idea that you are going to sell 1,000,000 is wishful thinking. Having said that, we have downloaded and paid for a number of small educational application for our daughter over the past 4 years (learning to read, simple math, U.S.A. state geography, etc). These are not amazing apps by any means, but they served a purpose and we recommend them to our friends with young children and teachers at her school. Also, having an app from a given company/developer, we're more likely to go back to them for future apps. If they can build a reusable engine and generate new apps, why not? Has anyone on here successfully sold multiple copies of a mobile app? Tim
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Yes, the idea that you are going to sell 1,000,000 is wishful thinking. Having said that, we have downloaded and paid for a number of small educational application for our daughter over the past 4 years (learning to read, simple math, U.S.A. state geography, etc). These are not amazing apps by any means, but they served a purpose and we recommend them to our friends with young children and teachers at her school. Also, having an app from a given company/developer, we're more likely to go back to them for future apps. If they can build a reusable engine and generate new apps, why not? Has anyone on here successfully sold multiple copies of a mobile app? Tim
Tim Carmichael wrote:
Has anyone on here successfully sold multiple copies of a mobile app?
Would be interested in hearing those stories myself.
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
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That'a a fair point. I think what bothers me is the devaluation of what I do for a living. Once upon a time, spending $100 on professional quality software was pretty cheap. I routinely spend way more than that for dev, audio and video tools. Try listing an app on the App Store for $100 and you'll get death threats. With mobile being all the rage these days, and rightly so for the benefits it brings, why am I expected to work for staggeringly ridiculous prices in mobile compared to desktop software? That would suggest that mobile apps are only worth a tiny fraction of their desktop brethren. And yet, everyone's talking about how the desktop PC is legacy and destined to die. I don't think there's a legitimate reason for this pricing in terms of cost / value. It's just a trend that got started (looking at you, Apple). And as a guy who gets paid to sling code, I dislike the notion that we should work for less than minimum wage.
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
Christopher Duncan wrote:
Try listing an app on the App Store for $100 and you'll get death threats.
A game? - I am with you. Something for a serious cause? - TomTom is selling a navigation App for about that price (Maybe just 80$, but still...). The main problem is that most of these cheap apps need to be cheap because you do not immediately need them, and they do not give you an immediate benefit. Anyways, some of them are just additional for existing offers, such as the Wuala app, for example (Wuala makes money for selling Cloud space, not the app to access the cloud space). However, all of these are different sale models and in the end, everyone has to decide which fits best for a certain purpose.
cheers Marco Bertschi
You have absolutely no idea how glad I am that I have no idea at all. - OriginalGriff I'm at peace with the world and myself. - Me
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Tim Carmichael wrote:
Has anyone on here successfully sold multiple copies of a mobile app?
Does "got ad revenue from" count as "sold"?
You bring up a good point. Advertising is the other leg of revenue in mobile. Anyone making any money from advertising on mobile apps? Would be interested in what the numbers are in terms of revenue versus downloads. From what I've read it's still miniscule income for all but the lucky few.
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
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After spending a few hundred bucks on an iPad Mini, I went through the process of setting everything up. Hadn't used Instapaper and wanted to give it a try so I set up an account on their website and then went to download the iPad app. At that point, I hesitated because of the cost. It was 4 dollars. Really. After a brief moment I realized how stupid that was and bought the app. It's nice getting stuff for free or on the cheap but this really bugs me. These days, software is supposed to be free and if you actually have to pay for it, gosh, it really shouldn't cost more than 99 cents or it's way overpriced. As a professional software developer, I can't imagine why someone would go to all the trouble of writing professional quality software and then selling it for a dollar. Or even 4. This is why I don't write mobile apps on the side. I mean, seriously, try getting a plumber out to your house for 4 dollars. [edit] Since this appears to be the common thinking... Guys - you're not going to sell a million copies. You'll be lucky to sell 100. Lots of studies on this and the fallacy of Gold Rush thinking. And so the question - who are these people who are willing to work so cheaply, and are they free this weekend to mow my lawn? :-D [/edit]
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
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You bring up a good point. Advertising is the other leg of revenue in mobile. Anyone making any money from advertising on mobile apps? Would be interested in what the numbers are in terms of revenue versus downloads. From what I've read it's still miniscule income for all but the lucky few.
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
Pretty much. I got €100 in the first year, most of it from the first two months. Once the app disappears from the "new and fancy"-list, no one cares about it anymore. (this was on Windows Phone btw, not a very big platform) Unless it goes viral, which it won't. That's like winning the lottery.
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Along those lines, if you sell 100 copies, which is probably a realistic figure, you're working for $1 an hour. I could be wrong, but I think you're worth more than that. :)
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
I don't know if I am worth more but I definitely charge more than that, however, the risk is what is important. Would you risk $10,000 for a chance at 100,000k? Probably, if you thought it was more than random. They way I considered it is: 100 is a given because we all have family and friends and a decent app would crest 1000 on word of mouth. So the real risk if you did it right would be $9k. Print a few t-shirts give your apps to magazines to review. Good reviews = downloads. 10,000 isn't that hard. Now, 100k, ok hard, but that is more than breaking even ... unless you are talking about my bill rate : )
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost "All users always want Excel" --Ennis Lynch
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Pretty much. I got €100 in the first year, most of it from the first two months. Once the app disappears from the "new and fancy"-list, no one cares about it anymore. (this was on Windows Phone btw, not a very big platform) Unless it goes viral, which it won't. That's like winning the lottery.
And I'm guessing that 100 Euros is what you make in just a few hours in your real job. That's why I wonder about the wisdom of training people to pay us next to nothing for apps that have significant value.
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
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After spending a few hundred bucks on an iPad Mini, I went through the process of setting everything up. Hadn't used Instapaper and wanted to give it a try so I set up an account on their website and then went to download the iPad app. At that point, I hesitated because of the cost. It was 4 dollars. Really. After a brief moment I realized how stupid that was and bought the app. It's nice getting stuff for free or on the cheap but this really bugs me. These days, software is supposed to be free and if you actually have to pay for it, gosh, it really shouldn't cost more than 99 cents or it's way overpriced. As a professional software developer, I can't imagine why someone would go to all the trouble of writing professional quality software and then selling it for a dollar. Or even 4. This is why I don't write mobile apps on the side. I mean, seriously, try getting a plumber out to your house for 4 dollars. [edit] Since this appears to be the common thinking... Guys - you're not going to sell a million copies. You'll be lucky to sell 100. Lots of studies on this and the fallacy of Gold Rush thinking. And so the question - who are these people who are willing to work so cheaply, and are they free this weekend to mow my lawn? :-D [/edit]
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
Christopher Duncan wrote:
These days, software is supposed to be free
really? are you sure about that? :)
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I don't know if I am worth more but I definitely charge more than that, however, the risk is what is important. Would you risk $10,000 for a chance at 100,000k? Probably, if you thought it was more than random. They way I considered it is: 100 is a given because we all have family and friends and a decent app would crest 1000 on word of mouth. So the real risk if you did it right would be $9k. Print a few t-shirts give your apps to magazines to review. Good reviews = downloads. 10,000 isn't that hard. Now, 100k, ok hard, but that is more than breaking even ... unless you are talking about my bill rate : )
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost "All users always want Excel" --Ennis Lynch
And that's the thing. I think chances of success are well below random. Otherwise, you and I would both be cranking them out as fast as we could!
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
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After spending a few hundred bucks on an iPad Mini, I went through the process of setting everything up. Hadn't used Instapaper and wanted to give it a try so I set up an account on their website and then went to download the iPad app. At that point, I hesitated because of the cost. It was 4 dollars. Really. After a brief moment I realized how stupid that was and bought the app. It's nice getting stuff for free or on the cheap but this really bugs me. These days, software is supposed to be free and if you actually have to pay for it, gosh, it really shouldn't cost more than 99 cents or it's way overpriced. As a professional software developer, I can't imagine why someone would go to all the trouble of writing professional quality software and then selling it for a dollar. Or even 4. This is why I don't write mobile apps on the side. I mean, seriously, try getting a plumber out to your house for 4 dollars. [edit] Since this appears to be the common thinking... Guys - you're not going to sell a million copies. You'll be lucky to sell 100. Lots of studies on this and the fallacy of Gold Rush thinking. And so the question - who are these people who are willing to work so cheaply, and are they free this weekend to mow my lawn? :-D [/edit]
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
Christopher Duncan wrote:
And so the question - who are these people who are willing to work so cheaply, and are they free this weekend to mow my lawn? :-D
Me... and only if there is free beer provided. I have a piece of software out there that is free and has had a good few downloads. I can count the number of people who have made a donation on one hand. I do it for the enjoyment and sense of accomplishment and what I learn along the way. For this reason I make a point of donating when I use software regularly.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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Well, at least you're not expecting to sell a million copies like everyone else. That said, in all but rare cases, even 10k sales of a paid app is massively unrealistic. 99 cents times 100 sales, something you might achieve, is less than most developers make before lunch. And you're going to spend way more than half a day on it.
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
It's worse than that for iPhone development: Apple takes a princely 30%, so you'll only see ~70 cents per download, as ever it is the people selling the tools that make the bucks, not the prospectors. Reminds me of the 80s, when the home computer (Spectrum/C63 era) market was flooded with games and it drove the prices down. I did hear a theory that development would split into two: the "hard" comp sci stuff which will be paid well, and low-paid low-skilled work where people cobble stuff together from simple to use frameworks. The apps store thing might be a sign that this theory has legs?
“Education is not the piling on of learning, information, data, facts, skills, or abilities - that's training or instruction - but is rather making visible what is hidden as a seed”
“One of the greatest problems of our time is that many are schooled but few are educated”Sir Thomas More (1478 – 1535)
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Christopher Duncan wrote:
These days, software is supposed to be free
really? are you sure about that? :)
Popular culture? Yes. Without question. My own personal convictions? Not only no, but hell no! :-D
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)
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Christopher Duncan wrote:
And so the question - who are these people who are willing to work so cheaply, and are they free this weekend to mow my lawn? :-D
Me... and only if there is free beer provided. I have a piece of software out there that is free and has had a good few downloads. I can count the number of people who have made a donation on one hand. I do it for the enjoyment and sense of accomplishment and what I learn along the way. For this reason I make a point of donating when I use software regularly.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
I can certainly understand doing stuff for a hobby. I've written plenty of stuff for my own use. My primary concern is the devaluation of our skill set over time. And beer ain't free. ;P
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer Enjoy comedy? Watch Talking Head Games (SFW)