Recent departure
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wizardzz wrote:
The reason given? Language, foul language, in particular that is used by a VP.
[NSFW LANGUAGE]Is this your VP[^]?[NSFW LANGUAGE]
more from me | GALex: C++ Library for Advanced Genetic Algorithms
I love that rant.
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So, the junior dev under me quit. He went to the manager the week of my wedding (I was scheduled off for 7 working days for honeymoon) and quit, no 2 weeks notice, he wanted out. My manager asked if he could at least stick around until I got back. He said okay, but then didn't, left after my 4th working day gone. The reason given? Language, foul language, in particular that is used by a VP. It apparently upset him and even stressed him out at home (he never did any work or support in off hours, unlike most of us who support 247). We warn new hires, him included, that it can get loud, fast paced, stressful, and we use foul language. None of it sexual in nature, just shit, fuck, damn, etc. On his last day on the job, he sent a letter to all newer hires, asking if it bothered them. Only one replied, a female recent college graduate. She said she doesn't even notice it. Here's my theory. Some background: He moved here, across the country for this job 6 months ago. We flew him in, our expense, to interview him. Theory: He is now relocated, settle in, his wife is settled in, so now he's actually looking for a job he likes, and trying to get sympathy from other new hires to use as a reference. He was a shitty developer who took any sort of criticism horribly. He never tested anything and could not work autonomously. He needed constant detailed lists of what to do, said things were completed ahead of schedule while they were less than half way done and untested. He was a database guy that we were teaching to code, so he knew nothing, but wouldn't admit it, even though almost everything he did was a copy/paste job. The work he did in the last 2 weeks: horrible, had to be rolled back from prod as his claims of testing his changed were lies. Anyways, his little exit strategy is dicking over a lot of people here, making my team look bad, all the way up to our boss below the head honcho (for some reason, he really tried to dick over our VP).
Elephant 'im. You don't need such a sunshine in your office, anyway.
Will Rogers never met me.
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I love that rant.
Ditto. The girl who wrote original email is pretty good with angry words and the interpretation is spot-on.
more from me | GALex: C++ Library for Advanced Genetic Algorithms
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So, the junior dev under me quit. He went to the manager the week of my wedding (I was scheduled off for 7 working days for honeymoon) and quit, no 2 weeks notice, he wanted out. My manager asked if he could at least stick around until I got back. He said okay, but then didn't, left after my 4th working day gone. The reason given? Language, foul language, in particular that is used by a VP. It apparently upset him and even stressed him out at home (he never did any work or support in off hours, unlike most of us who support 247). We warn new hires, him included, that it can get loud, fast paced, stressful, and we use foul language. None of it sexual in nature, just shit, fuck, damn, etc. On his last day on the job, he sent a letter to all newer hires, asking if it bothered them. Only one replied, a female recent college graduate. She said she doesn't even notice it. Here's my theory. Some background: He moved here, across the country for this job 6 months ago. We flew him in, our expense, to interview him. Theory: He is now relocated, settle in, his wife is settled in, so now he's actually looking for a job he likes, and trying to get sympathy from other new hires to use as a reference. He was a shitty developer who took any sort of criticism horribly. He never tested anything and could not work autonomously. He needed constant detailed lists of what to do, said things were completed ahead of schedule while they were less than half way done and untested. He was a database guy that we were teaching to code, so he knew nothing, but wouldn't admit it, even though almost everything he did was a copy/paste job. The work he did in the last 2 weeks: horrible, had to be rolled back from prod as his claims of testing his changed were lies. Anyways, his little exit strategy is dicking over a lot of people here, making my team look bad, all the way up to our boss below the head honcho (for some reason, he really tried to dick over our VP).
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On a similar note, our team recently got a warning that someone was getting offended about our use of "crude" language, and we suspect it was one of the new people (because everyone else laughs at/joins in our conversations). Wonder if they're trying to pull something similar...but the joke's on them, we're likely moving to our own space soon, then no one will be able to hear us. Until then, we just keep most of our talking to IM, where we can be as "crude" as we want.
Keep in mind, depending on your local laws' definition of a hostile work environment, "crude language" could result in a transfer of significant money from the company to the former employee (and their attorney!)
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So, the junior dev under me quit. He went to the manager the week of my wedding (I was scheduled off for 7 working days for honeymoon) and quit, no 2 weeks notice, he wanted out. My manager asked if he could at least stick around until I got back. He said okay, but then didn't, left after my 4th working day gone. The reason given? Language, foul language, in particular that is used by a VP. It apparently upset him and even stressed him out at home (he never did any work or support in off hours, unlike most of us who support 247). We warn new hires, him included, that it can get loud, fast paced, stressful, and we use foul language. None of it sexual in nature, just shit, fuck, damn, etc. On his last day on the job, he sent a letter to all newer hires, asking if it bothered them. Only one replied, a female recent college graduate. She said she doesn't even notice it. Here's my theory. Some background: He moved here, across the country for this job 6 months ago. We flew him in, our expense, to interview him. Theory: He is now relocated, settle in, his wife is settled in, so now he's actually looking for a job he likes, and trying to get sympathy from other new hires to use as a reference. He was a shitty developer who took any sort of criticism horribly. He never tested anything and could not work autonomously. He needed constant detailed lists of what to do, said things were completed ahead of schedule while they were less than half way done and untested. He was a database guy that we were teaching to code, so he knew nothing, but wouldn't admit it, even though almost everything he did was a copy/paste job. The work he did in the last 2 weeks: horrible, had to be rolled back from prod as his claims of testing his changed were lies. Anyways, his little exit strategy is dicking over a lot of people here, making my team look bad, all the way up to our boss below the head honcho (for some reason, he really tried to dick over our VP).
Devils advocate time - was he warned about the language in the office before he was hired or after? If before, then maybe, just maybe, it's far worse than he thought. If after, then it's a bit late, isn't it? I've had an employee complain to me about the language in meetings before, saying he would prefer not to attend the meetings if language like that was going to be used. I appreciated his honesty and openness, and had a word with everyone (without mentioning the employee)saying how unprofessional it sounded to be using four letter words in meetings. All was fine. Incidentally if you have people swearing openly in the office this can backfire on your company - people on the phone overhearing bad language can be genuinely upset. Sure the guy may have been taking the company for a ride to get relocation - alternatively he may feel so stressed at being subjected to foul language that he would rather be unemployed than put up with it. Just fucking sayin'
MVVM# - See how I did MVVM my way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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So, the junior dev under me quit. He went to the manager the week of my wedding (I was scheduled off for 7 working days for honeymoon) and quit, no 2 weeks notice, he wanted out. My manager asked if he could at least stick around until I got back. He said okay, but then didn't, left after my 4th working day gone. The reason given? Language, foul language, in particular that is used by a VP. It apparently upset him and even stressed him out at home (he never did any work or support in off hours, unlike most of us who support 247). We warn new hires, him included, that it can get loud, fast paced, stressful, and we use foul language. None of it sexual in nature, just shit, fuck, damn, etc. On his last day on the job, he sent a letter to all newer hires, asking if it bothered them. Only one replied, a female recent college graduate. She said she doesn't even notice it. Here's my theory. Some background: He moved here, across the country for this job 6 months ago. We flew him in, our expense, to interview him. Theory: He is now relocated, settle in, his wife is settled in, so now he's actually looking for a job he likes, and trying to get sympathy from other new hires to use as a reference. He was a shitty developer who took any sort of criticism horribly. He never tested anything and could not work autonomously. He needed constant detailed lists of what to do, said things were completed ahead of schedule while they were less than half way done and untested. He was a database guy that we were teaching to code, so he knew nothing, but wouldn't admit it, even though almost everything he did was a copy/paste job. The work he did in the last 2 weeks: horrible, had to be rolled back from prod as his claims of testing his changed were lies. Anyways, his little exit strategy is dicking over a lot of people here, making my team look bad, all the way up to our boss below the head honcho (for some reason, he really tried to dick over our VP).
Karma, dude.
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
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wizardzz wrote:
I don't think we are considering this deal again.
You should. We're all capable of ignoring MM's foul language, so we wouldn't complain about your VP.
I was brought up to respect my elders. I don't respect many people nowadays.
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easierPete O'Hanlon wrote:
You should. We're all capable of ignoring MM's foul language, so we wouldn't complain about your VP.
Faarrrkkkk off, it's my job. Just waiting for Wiz to get the tickets to me.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
You should. We're all capable of ignoring MM's foul language, so we wouldn't complain about your VP.
Faarrrkkkk off, it's my job. Just waiting for Wiz to get the tickets to me.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
According to his post, it's not the Veep's role you're applying for, and it seems that's the foul mouthed position. If you want his job, you're going to have to make his head explode with one of your famous MM Elephant rants. I suggest you go with the ladies tennis one.
I was brought up to respect my elders. I don't respect many people nowadays.
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier -
According to his post, it's not the Veep's role you're applying for, and it seems that's the foul mouthed position. If you want his job, you're going to have to make his head explode with one of your famous MM Elephant rants. I suggest you go with the ladies tennis one.
I was brought up to respect my elders. I don't respect many people nowadays.
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easierPete O'Hanlon wrote:
According to his post, it's not the Veep's role you're applying for, and it seems that's the foul mouthed position. If you want his job, you're going to have to make his head explode with one of your famous MM Elephant rants. I suggest you go with the ladies tennis one.
The VP may be the foul mouthed one now, but once there I will unseat him of that position and while getting there the language won't bother me.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
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So, the junior dev under me quit. He went to the manager the week of my wedding (I was scheduled off for 7 working days for honeymoon) and quit, no 2 weeks notice, he wanted out. My manager asked if he could at least stick around until I got back. He said okay, but then didn't, left after my 4th working day gone. The reason given? Language, foul language, in particular that is used by a VP. It apparently upset him and even stressed him out at home (he never did any work or support in off hours, unlike most of us who support 247). We warn new hires, him included, that it can get loud, fast paced, stressful, and we use foul language. None of it sexual in nature, just shit, fuck, damn, etc. On his last day on the job, he sent a letter to all newer hires, asking if it bothered them. Only one replied, a female recent college graduate. She said she doesn't even notice it. Here's my theory. Some background: He moved here, across the country for this job 6 months ago. We flew him in, our expense, to interview him. Theory: He is now relocated, settle in, his wife is settled in, so now he's actually looking for a job he likes, and trying to get sympathy from other new hires to use as a reference. He was a shitty developer who took any sort of criticism horribly. He never tested anything and could not work autonomously. He needed constant detailed lists of what to do, said things were completed ahead of schedule while they were less than half way done and untested. He was a database guy that we were teaching to code, so he knew nothing, but wouldn't admit it, even though almost everything he did was a copy/paste job. The work he did in the last 2 weeks: horrible, had to be rolled back from prod as his claims of testing his changed were lies. Anyways, his little exit strategy is dicking over a lot of people here, making my team look bad, all the way up to our boss below the head honcho (for some reason, he really tried to dick over our VP).
wizardzz wrote:
Here's my theory.
That's a very contrieved explanation. Here's my theory: You know socially it's a shitty place you work for - you just don't want to admit it. He shows you, and you are looking for a way to resolve this dissonance by putting all blame on him. If he was that scheming: Wanting out ASAP means he already got a new job, starting tomorrow and could care less about the opinion of your juniors.
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That’s why I stopped posting in the Lounge. These “Elephant”, “Sunshine” and “Paris” words used all over the place make me feel sad and stressed and dirty. I’m so fucking sensitive to foul language.:sigh:
There is only one Vera Farmiga and Salma Hayek is her prophet! Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
Deyan Georgiev wrote:
That’s why I stopped posting in the Lounge. These “Elephant”, “Sunshine” and “Paris”
Is the last just general snarking at either the city or the skank; or did I miss an epic rant somewhere?
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
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Deyan Georgiev wrote:
That’s why I stopped posting in the Lounge. These “Elephant”, “Sunshine” and “Paris”
Is the last just general snarking at either the city or the skank; or did I miss an epic rant somewhere?
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
Just a joke.
There is only one Vera Farmiga and Salma Hayek is her prophet! Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
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He's a junior dev and already married? $10 says he's a good little christian boy, probably had no idea what working at a trading firm is like.
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Devils advocate time - was he warned about the language in the office before he was hired or after? If before, then maybe, just maybe, it's far worse than he thought. If after, then it's a bit late, isn't it? I've had an employee complain to me about the language in meetings before, saying he would prefer not to attend the meetings if language like that was going to be used. I appreciated his honesty and openness, and had a word with everyone (without mentioning the employee)saying how unprofessional it sounded to be using four letter words in meetings. All was fine. Incidentally if you have people swearing openly in the office this can backfire on your company - people on the phone overhearing bad language can be genuinely upset. Sure the guy may have been taking the company for a ride to get relocation - alternatively he may feel so stressed at being subjected to foul language that he would rather be unemployed than put up with it. Just fucking sayin'
MVVM# - See how I did MVVM my way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
He was warned during the interview process. I was warned. Everyone recent is warned. There is an employee on her 7th or 8th year that has brought up in the past that she gets offended (my boss named a variable PimpJuice once, and she saw it). We no longer swear in code, and she is in a far away part of the office. This guy could have requested that, too, but chose to quit after unsuccessfully trying to rally people to join his cause. He also mentioned to the CEO that he was underutilized. It's funny because he was a terrible developer, his code was poorly written, unscalable, full of overly complex nested loops and if statements that always needed to be refactored or rearchitected to classes (he didn't like classes). I spent so much of my time code reviewing, correcting, trying to teach, etc, that I was no longer utilized in the best possible way. He would submit requests to code review projects that he knew were just terrible, just to buy time to fuck around and say he had no work. 50% of my reviews were sent back immediately with "What do you need reviewed here? I know that you know what I'm going to say about this." He just never caught on to or attempted to learn OOP that well. We would give him a project, after 2 days he would start telling people (including managers) that it was done because he wrote out almost runable, untested script that worked for maybe 1 case out of 14 possible cases. There was always 2 weeks worth of testing, correcting, refactoring still to be done. The worst part is that I spent so much time trying to teach him and he spend no effort trying to learn. I've spent time outside of every job I've had to better my skills, he didn't.
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wizardzz wrote:
Here's my theory.
That's a very contrieved explanation. Here's my theory: You know socially it's a shitty place you work for - you just don't want to admit it. He shows you, and you are looking for a way to resolve this dissonance by putting all blame on him. If he was that scheming: Wanting out ASAP means he already got a new job, starting tomorrow and could care less about the opinion of your juniors.
peterchen wrote:
You know socially it's a sh***y place you work for - you just don't want to admit it. He shows you, and you are looking for a way to resolve this dissonance by putting all blame on him.
It's not shitty socially, it's shitty stressfully. It's the trading industry. It's fast paced, single bugs lose client money and close businesses. For example, Twitter, Google, Facebook (household companies viewed as cutting edge, etc, whatever) can be down for hours and continue to exist without trouble, many of us and our competitors would be toast, literally lose all clients and never recover from the reputation hit.. Anyone coming from another industry is warned throughout the process about this. I've warned or seen interviewees warned at every place I've worked. Some places only hire people with industry experience, because they know you understand and have a tolerance for the stress that comes with the pay.
peterchen wrote:
If he was that scheming: Wanting out ASAP means he already got a new job, starting tomorrow and could care less about the opinion of your juniors.
Future references.
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peterchen wrote:
You know socially it's a sh***y place you work for - you just don't want to admit it. He shows you, and you are looking for a way to resolve this dissonance by putting all blame on him.
It's not shitty socially, it's shitty stressfully. It's the trading industry. It's fast paced, single bugs lose client money and close businesses. For example, Twitter, Google, Facebook (household companies viewed as cutting edge, etc, whatever) can be down for hours and continue to exist without trouble, many of us and our competitors would be toast, literally lose all clients and never recover from the reputation hit.. Anyone coming from another industry is warned throughout the process about this. I've warned or seen interviewees warned at every place I've worked. Some places only hire people with industry experience, because they know you understand and have a tolerance for the stress that comes with the pay.
peterchen wrote:
If he was that scheming: Wanting out ASAP means he already got a new job, starting tomorrow and could care less about the opinion of your juniors.
Future references.
wizardzz wrote:
trading industry
Yeah, some people thrive under that pressure, some wilt, and most don't know before they tried.
wizardzz wrote:
Future references.
"Yeah, nothing from my boss, but that intern really liked me."
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He was warned during the interview process. I was warned. Everyone recent is warned. There is an employee on her 7th or 8th year that has brought up in the past that she gets offended (my boss named a variable PimpJuice once, and she saw it). We no longer swear in code, and she is in a far away part of the office. This guy could have requested that, too, but chose to quit after unsuccessfully trying to rally people to join his cause. He also mentioned to the CEO that he was underutilized. It's funny because he was a terrible developer, his code was poorly written, unscalable, full of overly complex nested loops and if statements that always needed to be refactored or rearchitected to classes (he didn't like classes). I spent so much of my time code reviewing, correcting, trying to teach, etc, that I was no longer utilized in the best possible way. He would submit requests to code review projects that he knew were just terrible, just to buy time to fuck around and say he had no work. 50% of my reviews were sent back immediately with "What do you need reviewed here? I know that you know what I'm going to say about this." He just never caught on to or attempted to learn OOP that well. We would give him a project, after 2 days he would start telling people (including managers) that it was done because he wrote out almost runable, untested script that worked for maybe 1 case out of 14 possible cases. There was always 2 weeks worth of testing, correcting, refactoring still to be done. The worst part is that I spent so much time trying to teach him and he spend no effort trying to learn. I've spent time outside of every job I've had to better my skills, he didn't.
My sympathies. I spent a few months trying to work with a (now former) cow-orker whose coding was similarly bad; except that as soon as he threw one method PoS over the wall to me he started failing to code the next (or more likely the one I rejected previously) until I sent the first one back; having either discovered it didn't work at all or found (typically several) cases where it failed. We were under severe enough time pressure that I didn't have time for my normal, post SVN update, micro code reviews of everything my coworkers wrote; and didn't realize how bad the theoretically, finally, working code the cow-orker wrote until he was laid off and I had to take it over. X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X|
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My sympathies. I spent a few months trying to work with a (now former) cow-orker whose coding was similarly bad; except that as soon as he threw one method PoS over the wall to me he started failing to code the next (or more likely the one I rejected previously) until I sent the first one back; having either discovered it didn't work at all or found (typically several) cases where it failed. We were under severe enough time pressure that I didn't have time for my normal, post SVN update, micro code reviews of everything my coworkers wrote; and didn't realize how bad the theoretically, finally, working code the cow-orker wrote until he was laid off and I had to take it over. X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X| X|
Wow that is pretty much the exact situation. My manager thought he was great, because he said everything was done so fast. Well, when he quit and I went on my honeymoon, my manager saw all the code he wrote, and e-mailed everyone "Don't trust anything X touched, any recent builds, revert to old production. Double check all your source control to be sure he didn't fuck it up." It wasn't a case of sabotage, just horrible coding that I had warned about, finally getting noticed.
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Wow that is pretty much the exact situation. My manager thought he was great, because he said everything was done so fast. Well, when he quit and I went on my honeymoon, my manager saw all the code he wrote, and e-mailed everyone "Don't trust anything X touched, any recent builds, revert to old production. Double check all your source control to be sure he didn't fuck it up." It wasn't a case of sabotage, just horrible coding that I had warned about, finally getting noticed.
Sounds like yours did a better job of baffling management with BS; this was my first project with the senior dev/tech lead and via my line manager I was getting positive feedback about how happy the senior was with my codes relative quality; but I didn't pick up on the implied cow-orkers is horrid until after the fact. I knew his testing was grossly inadequate, and that he was overly prone to reinventing the wheel because of limited .net framework awareness, but didn't know about any of the other problems until after the fact. Although I was told he was let go due to lack of new tasking (the joys of being a contracting company); the rest of the team all being covered including partially on a followon effort have me convinced they just didn't want to officially boot him for cause.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt