What would it take for you to leave your current job?
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Another thing worth adding is, some people get stuck in a situation where they have to use older technologies. I all but left a job because we seemed to be intending on working in VB6 and classic ASP, and stayed when that changed. I left my first job because, after building a UI framework in C that was scripted in Python, the job became scripting that UI in Python, which struck me as both interesting and a dead end, career wise. I'm not sure I'd move for money, unless it was a LOT of it. The other things you suggest are compelling, although I have some of them now, especially #4 ( working from home ). I am not sure I want to talk to the users, I don't think that's safe for me or them.... I guess it would be different if the users were people like me. Oh, if I was asked to work in an office full of super models, that would also not hurt.... :P
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
Oh, if I was asked to work in an office full of super models, that would also not hurt
I experienced that once. A distributor I worked for in Joburg sold a machine to a large ad agency and me and a colleague went to their office to install it. That day, they were photographing a number of models who were there to a promote a client's new range of bras and knickers. They walked from the changing room to the studio right past the office where we were sitting. Phew! It was as lovely a site visit as we ever had.
If there is one thing more dangerous than getting between a bear and her cubs it's getting between my wife and her chocolate.
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We're growing, still (and of course we still have our never ending growing pains) and we're looking for a seriously impressive person to lead our team to build CP.next. So what does it typically take for someone well established, with a proven track record, with many years under their belt, to leave the safety of their current gig and take on a very large job fraught with peril and the promise of many long days and bleary eyes? What would tempt you to leave your current job and take a chance? I think about this a lot and have narrowed it down to a few things 1. Money 2. An interesting challenge to break away from current tedium, or a bigger challenge than their last 3. A chance to own something, to get in at the start and build it under your direction 4. Office environment, perks, co-workers, location, flexibility in hours 5. A chance to do build something where you actually get to directly talk to your users 6. A chance to fill out your resume with some serious name-dropping What else would you say would be a reason to leave a current job and move to a new one? which, for you, are the biggies?
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
I'm debt-free so I can move for reasons other than financial. Don't get me wrong, I want a good salary but I'm flexible. That means I can look at other factors about the workplace. Flexitime is nice but not essential. Dress code should be informal but not OTT. I've no problem with what people wear but sometimes what they wear is a reflection of their attitude to others and to an extent, their attitude to their job. Office furniture should be comfortable to use and the general environment should be conducive. I know: there are people who dress like tramps, stink like a skunk and who are happy coding in the slops in a dumpster but not everyone does. Management: you could work for the best paying company in the world but what's the point if the management uses fear and intimidation to bully its staff. You say such firms don't exist, can't exist? We have one employer where it's a serious problem; it's called the NHS. If it works right at the top, it works right at the bottom. Respect: You can't put a price on that. And you can't buy it either. Many, many years ago, a bank in the UK made some staff redundant. One employee was in hospital when the news broke so HR actually sent someone to the ward to give him his redundancy letter. The workplace is more about money. Money's important but to reverse that famous statement made by some fashion house owner (can't remember her name); I'd rather be happy on a bicycle than be miserable in a Rolls-Royce.
If there is one thing more dangerous than getting between a bear and her cubs it's getting between my wife and her chocolate.
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We're growing, still (and of course we still have our never ending growing pains) and we're looking for a seriously impressive person to lead our team to build CP.next. So what does it typically take for someone well established, with a proven track record, with many years under their belt, to leave the safety of their current gig and take on a very large job fraught with peril and the promise of many long days and bleary eyes? What would tempt you to leave your current job and take a chance? I think about this a lot and have narrowed it down to a few things 1. Money 2. An interesting challenge to break away from current tedium, or a bigger challenge than their last 3. A chance to own something, to get in at the start and build it under your direction 4. Office environment, perks, co-workers, location, flexibility in hours 5. A chance to do build something where you actually get to directly talk to your users 6. A chance to fill out your resume with some serious name-dropping What else would you say would be a reason to leave a current job and move to a new one? which, for you, are the biggies?
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
An interesting challenge to break away from current tedium, or a bigger challenge than their last A chance to own something, to get in at the start and build it under your direction Money Office environment, perks, co-workers, location, flexibility in hours
Every day, thousands of innocent plants are killed by vegetarians. Help end the violence EAT BACON
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We're growing, still (and of course we still have our never ending growing pains) and we're looking for a seriously impressive person to lead our team to build CP.next. So what does it typically take for someone well established, with a proven track record, with many years under their belt, to leave the safety of their current gig and take on a very large job fraught with peril and the promise of many long days and bleary eyes? What would tempt you to leave your current job and take a chance? I think about this a lot and have narrowed it down to a few things 1. Money 2. An interesting challenge to break away from current tedium, or a bigger challenge than their last 3. A chance to own something, to get in at the start and build it under your direction 4. Office environment, perks, co-workers, location, flexibility in hours 5. A chance to do build something where you actually get to directly talk to your users 6. A chance to fill out your resume with some serious name-dropping What else would you say would be a reason to leave a current job and move to a new one? which, for you, are the biggies?
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
I am amazed at all the hypocritical answers here about challenge, ability to drive your own project, and such : Put the right amount of money on the table, and you will get anyone.
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus Do not feed the troll ! - Common proverb
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We're growing, still (and of course we still have our never ending growing pains) and we're looking for a seriously impressive person to lead our team to build CP.next. So what does it typically take for someone well established, with a proven track record, with many years under their belt, to leave the safety of their current gig and take on a very large job fraught with peril and the promise of many long days and bleary eyes? What would tempt you to leave your current job and take a chance? I think about this a lot and have narrowed it down to a few things 1. Money 2. An interesting challenge to break away from current tedium, or a bigger challenge than their last 3. A chance to own something, to get in at the start and build it under your direction 4. Office environment, perks, co-workers, location, flexibility in hours 5. A chance to do build something where you actually get to directly talk to your users 6. A chance to fill out your resume with some serious name-dropping What else would you say would be a reason to leave a current job and move to a new one? which, for you, are the biggies?
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
Chris Maunder wrote:
very large job fraught with peril and the promise of many long days and bleary eyes
I'm a parent of two small children, I don't need to get it even worse. 1. Enough money is important, more than that is a perk. Find out where that limit is. 2. Knowing that this challenge is within my abilities. 3. Always a perk, but no dealbreaker for me. 4. Very important. Is the relation to the boss included here, that's just as important. I'm an introvert personality, working in a office cube would also be a dealbreaker. 5. Did I say that I'm introvert? 6. Always a perk. 7. Job safety is a biggie for me. But it wasn't when I was younger. And it might not be when my children have moved out.
Be excellent to each other. And... PARTY ON, DUDES! Abraham Lincoln
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We're growing, still (and of course we still have our never ending growing pains) and we're looking for a seriously impressive person to lead our team to build CP.next. So what does it typically take for someone well established, with a proven track record, with many years under their belt, to leave the safety of their current gig and take on a very large job fraught with peril and the promise of many long days and bleary eyes? What would tempt you to leave your current job and take a chance? I think about this a lot and have narrowed it down to a few things 1. Money 2. An interesting challenge to break away from current tedium, or a bigger challenge than their last 3. A chance to own something, to get in at the start and build it under your direction 4. Office environment, perks, co-workers, location, flexibility in hours 5. A chance to do build something where you actually get to directly talk to your users 6. A chance to fill out your resume with some serious name-dropping What else would you say would be a reason to leave a current job and move to a new one? which, for you, are the biggies?
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
Oh yeah. I also want to work somewhere were the senior managers don't have a door only they are allowed to use to get into the building. Seriously, what the fuck is the point of that? We all end up climbing the same bloody staircase to the offices once we're in. Massages their ego a little bit and reminds the rest of us we're not as good as them.
“I believe that there is an equality to all humanity. We all suck.” Bill Hicks
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We're growing, still (and of course we still have our never ending growing pains) and we're looking for a seriously impressive person to lead our team to build CP.next. So what does it typically take for someone well established, with a proven track record, with many years under their belt, to leave the safety of their current gig and take on a very large job fraught with peril and the promise of many long days and bleary eyes? What would tempt you to leave your current job and take a chance? I think about this a lot and have narrowed it down to a few things 1. Money 2. An interesting challenge to break away from current tedium, or a bigger challenge than their last 3. A chance to own something, to get in at the start and build it under your direction 4. Office environment, perks, co-workers, location, flexibility in hours 5. A chance to do build something where you actually get to directly talk to your users 6. A chance to fill out your resume with some serious name-dropping What else would you say would be a reason to leave a current job and move to a new one? which, for you, are the biggies?
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
I'm normally "pushed" into the decision to leave by the circumstances in my existing company rather than pulled in by the ooh shiney of others. Since graduating my reasons for the decision to go have been: 0) Money - was working contract at an hourly rate, not enough hours = not enough pay. 1) Multi-factored: Was promised team lead work, then put in charge of UAT team. The company had a multi-layered workforce and promoted consulting staff (unqualified in IT, but they needed to be promoted into these positions to be kept on) into the position's I'd hoped for. My manager on the UAT left and her replacement had a repeated history of failed projects which then were blamed on underlings (and in one case her boss). Didn't fancy getting the chop very much either. 50ish-hour regular working week also unhelpful. 2) Lack of career progression: I designed a system for them and confidently expected to be put in charge of the team looking after it, or heading up new work. Was told that they didn't see me fitting the team lead role, but they might consider promoting me to architect. Later, when pressed about the architect bit, was told it was unlikely under the current economic climate. Turns out a consultant I had worked with previously had suggested the architect role as he thought I'd be bored rigid by management and praised my technical abilities to the hilt. My final reward was to be parachuted in to the single worst project I've seen by a professional outfit because "I could be trusted to sort it out", but not enough to take my recommendations on how to sort it out. Didn't stay long after that, but I emigrated for two years and it still wasn't working when I got back. This was the only time I left a job without having a new one ready, that's how bad it got. 3) "Sabbatical" job - I moved to Jordan and it was always temporary. Travelled round the middle east a bit & got to know the in-laws. Current job - Is very switched on, really nice people, standard working hours (important now I have an ickle). Starting to get ambivalent about it though, they seem determined to structure a smallish IT team like a bigger one, and have split Fix and new development into two teams, they've put me on fix which is a killer. They keep suggesting we'll get project work on a periodic basis but I don't see it happening. The one time I was drawn to a different company was because the work itself was interesting: Green-field development, new tech and integrating with a new type of chemical analyser, I eventually lost out as the ot
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I'm debt-free so I can move for reasons other than financial. Don't get me wrong, I want a good salary but I'm flexible. That means I can look at other factors about the workplace. Flexitime is nice but not essential. Dress code should be informal but not OTT. I've no problem with what people wear but sometimes what they wear is a reflection of their attitude to others and to an extent, their attitude to their job. Office furniture should be comfortable to use and the general environment should be conducive. I know: there are people who dress like tramps, stink like a skunk and who are happy coding in the slops in a dumpster but not everyone does. Management: you could work for the best paying company in the world but what's the point if the management uses fear and intimidation to bully its staff. You say such firms don't exist, can't exist? We have one employer where it's a serious problem; it's called the NHS. If it works right at the top, it works right at the bottom. Respect: You can't put a price on that. And you can't buy it either. Many, many years ago, a bank in the UK made some staff redundant. One employee was in hospital when the news broke so HR actually sent someone to the ward to give him his redundancy letter. The workplace is more about money. Money's important but to reverse that famous statement made by some fashion house owner (can't remember her name); I'd rather be happy on a bicycle than be miserable in a Rolls-Royce.
If there is one thing more dangerous than getting between a bear and her cubs it's getting between my wife and her chocolate.
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We're growing, still (and of course we still have our never ending growing pains) and we're looking for a seriously impressive person to lead our team to build CP.next. So what does it typically take for someone well established, with a proven track record, with many years under their belt, to leave the safety of their current gig and take on a very large job fraught with peril and the promise of many long days and bleary eyes? What would tempt you to leave your current job and take a chance? I think about this a lot and have narrowed it down to a few things 1. Money 2. An interesting challenge to break away from current tedium, or a bigger challenge than their last 3. A chance to own something, to get in at the start and build it under your direction 4. Office environment, perks, co-workers, location, flexibility in hours 5. A chance to do build something where you actually get to directly talk to your users 6. A chance to fill out your resume with some serious name-dropping What else would you say would be a reason to leave a current job and move to a new one? which, for you, are the biggies?
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
If I had a job ... in the "normal" sense of that word ... to leave ... rather than multiple "avocations" driven by passion, and if I were thirty to forty years younger, with "fire in the belly," and not con$trained by having family and/or dependent children, having to pay a mortgage off, major student loans outstanding, etc.: 0. the sense that what I was doing had some pro-social value, that somehow it could benefit "humanity," not in any grandiose way, but feeling I was part of something that, at least, enabled other people to develop their human potential, or help "lift" the "rest of us" up. 1. the chance to create, possible satisfaction of creating, something new, magical, revolutionary 2. the chance to work with peers, mentors, and to be a mentor, with people I respected, and create work relationships the memories of which would last a lifetime. 3. adequate money, working environment (adequate space, adequate privacy, no cubicle: windows as in fenestration), being able to work at home some of the time. 4. perceived ownership, as in personal responsibilities within a team; and, yes, stock. 5. the perception that even though the risk of failure of the work was uncertain, or very possible, that what was being created would open unknown doors to future opportunities, for me. 6. being part of an organization that, without being intrusive, or psychologically manipulative, was able to recognize such self-destructive behavior in the workplace as people "working themselves to death," "making the job their life," etc., and would not ignore it. Similarly a company that acted to stop abuse of responsibility by any employee. [1] 7. zero-tolerance for racism, sexism, or an internal culture that allowed disrespect of any religion. Yep, them are ideals :) And, yes, there are "sticky wickets" galore in what I write. [1] Examples from personal experience: company A: a key programmer widely known to be using methamphetamine, but very productive. company B: a low-level employee who furnished his cubicle with furniture he paid for himself, and spent as much as fifteen hours, or more, per day at the company. over-weight, gregarious but obviously very lonely, possibly well on his way to major heart-disease or cva, by age thrity-five. company C: an administrative assistant for a products group that was responsible for revenues of many millions of dollars: the person was on the telephone having personal conversations most of the day; they did not even bother to sort the mail (
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We're growing, still (and of course we still have our never ending growing pains) and we're looking for a seriously impressive person to lead our team to build CP.next. So what does it typically take for someone well established, with a proven track record, with many years under their belt, to leave the safety of their current gig and take on a very large job fraught with peril and the promise of many long days and bleary eyes? What would tempt you to leave your current job and take a chance? I think about this a lot and have narrowed it down to a few things 1. Money 2. An interesting challenge to break away from current tedium, or a bigger challenge than their last 3. A chance to own something, to get in at the start and build it under your direction 4. Office environment, perks, co-workers, location, flexibility in hours 5. A chance to do build something where you actually get to directly talk to your users 6. A chance to fill out your resume with some serious name-dropping What else would you say would be a reason to leave a current job and move to a new one? which, for you, are the biggies?
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
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We're growing, still (and of course we still have our never ending growing pains) and we're looking for a seriously impressive person to lead our team to build CP.next. So what does it typically take for someone well established, with a proven track record, with many years under their belt, to leave the safety of their current gig and take on a very large job fraught with peril and the promise of many long days and bleary eyes? What would tempt you to leave your current job and take a chance? I think about this a lot and have narrowed it down to a few things 1. Money 2. An interesting challenge to break away from current tedium, or a bigger challenge than their last 3. A chance to own something, to get in at the start and build it under your direction 4. Office environment, perks, co-workers, location, flexibility in hours 5. A chance to do build something where you actually get to directly talk to your users 6. A chance to fill out your resume with some serious name-dropping What else would you say would be a reason to leave a current job and move to a new one? which, for you, are the biggies?
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
Chris Maunder wrote:
1. Money
Yes, there should be that. Those that work for free are called interns.
Chris Maunder wrote:
2. An interesting challenge to break away from current tedium, or a bigger challenge than their last
Until it becomes tedious and unchallenging in a couple of years.
Chris Maunder wrote:
3. A chance to own something, to get in at the start and build it under your direction
Until the first demonstration of it to users.
Chris Maunder wrote:
5. A chance to do build something where you actually get to directly talk to your users
Typically you shouldn't talk about punishments/disciplinary actions during the interview process.
Chris Maunder wrote:
6. A chance to fill out your resume with some serious name-dropping
So you're enticing them with the ability to leave you easier? Honestly, this is the bottom line for most people I know. I know people that have happily stayed at shit jobs because of these:
Chris Maunder wrote:
4. Office environment, perks, co-workers, location, flexibility in hours
What tech are you using, btw?
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Ahem! nothing strange about that. Although my current doo is made of plastic pipe following the great termite disaster of '04
MVVM # - I did it My Way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
Just ignore the heathens. The culture thing always gets me when talking about Hockey over here. There is only one sport here: Hockey, but when I was growing up in the great metropolis that is Canberra I had a mate who played ice hockey. Ice Hockey seemed such a strange adaptation of the more sensible "hockey" that we, as teenage boys, would watch in High School (I mentioned Canberra, right? Sitting on the grass watching the girls running around in hockey skirts was the epitome of a well-spent lunchtime when you're 14). On the news today was a big piece about a Field Hockey competition being played here in Tronno and it's fascinating seeing that brief pause in people's eyes when they try and picture really, really big guys on skates playing hockey on grass.
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
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While money is a powerful motivator - I've never been paid the mythical "average" wage for my position and responsibilities at any job - it's far from the most important. An interesting challenge is always attractive, and has usually been my primary reason for changing jobs. One perk that has usually evaded my grasp has been an opportunity to develop something cradle to grave, rather than taking over a project that is already doomed and saving it. That's been my fate so many times I've lost count, and for a couple of decades I had a rep as a "fixer." Hard to escape that... Having a flexible environment where working from home is an option when there is no pressing need to be in the office would be very attractive, too, as I already seem to be doing all of my actual productive work on my own time anyway. A really big motivator would be a climate that is survivable without extreme measures, in a non-Nanny State. I had half that in CA, and I have half that in AZ, just opposite halves. Access to, and financial support for higher education would also be a plus, especially if the courses weren't required to be work related.
Will Rogers never met me.
It takes a certain type of person to be able to work at home productively and efficiently. Do they have will power and focus to work on things without distractions? DO they understand if they pop out for an hour for a beer, that's an hour of the company's time that needs to be made up, even though you'd never tell your coworkers? CAn you stay on top of issues, keep in contact, and ensure there's a constant flow of communication so that you are in touch with the latest developments and the others on the team know where you're up to? Lots of people think they can do it, but I've not seen that many who do it well.
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
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Time off. As you know with my current gig I have plenty of it. So it would have to at least match it. (and no loss of remuneration either!) :)
Dave Find Me On: Web|Facebook|Twitter|LinkedIn
Folding Stats: Team CodeProject
Yeah, but all the fast cars and friendly women tire you out, right? You and that dream job of yours... :rolleyes:
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
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I am amazed at all the hypocritical answers here about challenge, ability to drive your own project, and such : Put the right amount of money on the table, and you will get anyone.
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus Do not feed the troll ! - Common proverb
And I'm sad that you feel it's hypocritical for people to say they'd move for a chance to have an interesting, rather than lucrative position. My degree is in theoretical physics and I was under no illusions at the time that I would never make money, but that didn't matter one bit to me as long as I was working on stuff that was fascinating. Talk to artists, scientists, those in NPOs and those in healthcare. And then look at what they pay basic workers in far off mining communities and you see that money isn't actually everything. (But yes: you pay 10 million bucks a year and you will get a far higher sign-up rate than 50K a year)
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
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As in, Cuba ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Sometimes a cigar is just a job benefit.
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Just ignore the heathens. The culture thing always gets me when talking about Hockey over here. There is only one sport here: Hockey, but when I was growing up in the great metropolis that is Canberra I had a mate who played ice hockey. Ice Hockey seemed such a strange adaptation of the more sensible "hockey" that we, as teenage boys, would watch in High School (I mentioned Canberra, right? Sitting on the grass watching the girls running around in hockey skirts was the epitome of a well-spent lunchtime when you're 14). On the news today was a big piece about a Field Hockey competition being played here in Tronno and it's fascinating seeing that brief pause in people's eyes when they try and picture really, really big guys on skates playing hockey on grass.
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
Chris Maunder wrote:
try and picture really, really big guys on skates playing hockey on grass.
When I first encountered the term 'ice hockey' I was imagining short-skirted girlies on ice. Imagine how disappointed I was!
MVVM # - I did it My Way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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Chris Maunder wrote:
try and picture really, really big guys on skates playing hockey on grass.
When I first encountered the term 'ice hockey' I was imagining short-skirted girlies on ice. Imagine how disappointed I was!
MVVM # - I did it My Way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
Just imagine my relief and utter disappointment the first time I was served a Beaver Tail[^]
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
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It takes a certain type of person to be able to work at home productively and efficiently. Do they have will power and focus to work on things without distractions? DO they understand if they pop out for an hour for a beer, that's an hour of the company's time that needs to be made up, even though you'd never tell your coworkers? CAn you stay on top of issues, keep in contact, and ensure there's a constant flow of communication so that you are in touch with the latest developments and the others on the team know where you're up to? Lots of people think they can do it, but I've not seen that many who do it well.
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
I agree, partially. It's extremely difficult to find people who have the discipline to work from home and remain productive. But the idea that an hour away is an hour owed is false; I'm a professional, and I get paid for what I know and the solutions I provide. If it takes 20 hours, or 80 hours to accomplish what needs doing in a week, it's what I do. Time clocks and hourly accounting are for fry cooks, not technical professionals. Of course, there are a lot of people with fry cook minds and ethics working as technical professionals, so it takes a bit of weeding to find the real thing. :-D As for the rest of your list, there's no reason for anyone these days to fail in such things. We are in annoyingly constant contact with far too many people, and new information is rammed down our throats without us having to go looking for it. I can recall one idiot I worked for at Northrop. I was working in an advanced division, doing black projects on the bleeding edge of technology, and he happened by my office one day. I was taking a ten minute break to read an article about some new developments in the industry, and his only comment was, "Haven't you got any work to do?" Asshat... But he was typical of the mindset at that division's management, and a reason for that part of the company being dissolved about 2 months after I decided it had no future and moved on. I think the logistical barriers to working from home have largely been overcome in the past 5 years or so, but I still don't see as much of a shift in that direction as I expected a decade ago. It just doesn't seem to be catching on as well as I thought it would. Maybe we'll have to completely run out of petrol before businesses realize that even though 80% of their workforce can no longer afford to come to the office, their productivity hasn't dropped a bit, and morale has improved! :-D
Will Rogers never met me.
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Just imagine my relief and utter disappointment the first time I was served a Beaver Tail[^]
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
I'll see your beaver and raise you a spotted dick[^]
MVVM # - I did it My Way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
