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  4. a dozen historians' discuss GWB vs Iraq

a dozen historians' discuss GWB vs Iraq

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  • C Chris Losinger

    ... and not many of them believe the 2003 == 1939 or 2003 = 1956 parallels. in fact, most of them start out by blasting that "history repeats itself" meme. here's a selection (all from different essays) "I don't think it's a case either of 1939 or of 1956. I'm allergic to lazy historical analogies. History never repeats itself, ever. That's its murderous charm. " "I belong to the school that doesn't put much trust in historical precedents. They only show that no precedent ever fits exactly and that history never quite repeats itself. " "Historical analogies are rarely useful..." "Nineteen thirty nine it is not. " "But to compare Saddam with Hitler is to greatly inflate his importance and the danger he poses to international order. " "History never repeats itself, so anyone looking for parallels between the present situation and past events is likely to be disappointed. Not that there has been any shortage of such parallels drawn in the past few weeks by politicians seeking to encourage their supporters or discredit their opponents. But all of them are specious in one way or another. " "The war which is likely to break out shortly is not like the second world war. All comparisons with appeasement and Munich are so much hot air which merely justifies starting a war. No historian will believe them for a moment. " "For connected reasons, neither 1939 nor 1956 offer appropriate parallels to a projected second Gulf war. " "...it is said, if we were not now to act against Saddam Hussain. But this is no more than a spin on history. The parallels are as good as non-existent. " http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,898414,00.html[^] all very interesting little mini-essays. -c

    When history comes, it always takes you by surprise.

    Fractals

    B Offline
    B Offline
    Brit
    wrote on last edited by
    #2

    Chris Losinger wrote: a dozen historians' discuss GWB vs Iraq and not many of them believe the 2003 == 1939 or 2003 = 1956 parallels. in fact, most of them start out by blasting that "history repeats itself" meme. here's a selection (all from different essays) While I can read what they have to say, I hardly think the "all twelve historians believe GWB is wrong" holds any weight because they aren't exactly randomly selected by a poll - they're hand-picked by the Guardian. (I'm sure GWB could find twelve historians that believe him, too.) ------------------------------------------ They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin In an encampment expecting daily attack from a powerful enemy, self-preservation is paramount to all law. - Thomas Jefferson

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    • B Brit

      Chris Losinger wrote: a dozen historians' discuss GWB vs Iraq and not many of them believe the 2003 == 1939 or 2003 = 1956 parallels. in fact, most of them start out by blasting that "history repeats itself" meme. here's a selection (all from different essays) While I can read what they have to say, I hardly think the "all twelve historians believe GWB is wrong" holds any weight because they aren't exactly randomly selected by a poll - they're hand-picked by the Guardian. (I'm sure GWB could find twelve historians that believe him, too.) ------------------------------------------ They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin In an encampment expecting daily attack from a powerful enemy, self-preservation is paramount to all law. - Thomas Jefferson

      C Offline
      C Offline
      Chris Losinger
      wrote on last edited by
      #3

      Brit wrote: they're hand-picked by the Guardian. of course. but can you decisively find fault with any of what they've said ? (barring that you seem to really want to go to war and most of them don't) -c

      When history comes, it always takes you by surprise.

      Fractals

      J 1 Reply Last reply
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      • C Chris Losinger

        ... and not many of them believe the 2003 == 1939 or 2003 = 1956 parallels. in fact, most of them start out by blasting that "history repeats itself" meme. here's a selection (all from different essays) "I don't think it's a case either of 1939 or of 1956. I'm allergic to lazy historical analogies. History never repeats itself, ever. That's its murderous charm. " "I belong to the school that doesn't put much trust in historical precedents. They only show that no precedent ever fits exactly and that history never quite repeats itself. " "Historical analogies are rarely useful..." "Nineteen thirty nine it is not. " "But to compare Saddam with Hitler is to greatly inflate his importance and the danger he poses to international order. " "History never repeats itself, so anyone looking for parallels between the present situation and past events is likely to be disappointed. Not that there has been any shortage of such parallels drawn in the past few weeks by politicians seeking to encourage their supporters or discredit their opponents. But all of them are specious in one way or another. " "The war which is likely to break out shortly is not like the second world war. All comparisons with appeasement and Munich are so much hot air which merely justifies starting a war. No historian will believe them for a moment. " "For connected reasons, neither 1939 nor 1956 offer appropriate parallels to a projected second Gulf war. " "...it is said, if we were not now to act against Saddam Hussain. But this is no more than a spin on history. The parallels are as good as non-existent. " http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,898414,00.html[^] all very interesting little mini-essays. -c

        When history comes, it always takes you by surprise.

        Fractals

        J Offline
        J Offline
        JoeSox
        wrote on last edited by
        #4

        They do all have great points. To put it in simple terms, they are comparing apples with apples. They are noticing one apple is greener than the other, or one has a worm hole and the other does not. If this war is supposed to happen, what other wars can the US compare too, there can be no exact match. (attention flamers: these are thoughts I am thinking at the moment and are subject to change, just make some sense when speaking to me and maybe I will see your point) Later,
        JoeSox
        www.joeswammi.com
        Untitled[^]

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        • C Chris Losinger

          Brit wrote: they're hand-picked by the Guardian. of course. but can you decisively find fault with any of what they've said ? (barring that you seem to really want to go to war and most of them don't) -c

          When history comes, it always takes you by surprise.

          Fractals

          J Offline
          J Offline
          Jason Henderson
          wrote on last edited by
          #5

          History never repeats itself "exactly", but there are patterns that it seems to follow. We can examine those patterns and see similarities between them and our present situation.

          Jason Henderson
          "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

          articles profile

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          • J Jason Henderson

            History never repeats itself "exactly", but there are patterns that it seems to follow. We can examine those patterns and see similarities between them and our present situation.

            Jason Henderson
            "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

            articles profile

            C Offline
            C Offline
            Chris Losinger
            wrote on last edited by
            #6

            Jason Henderson wrote: We can examine those patterns and see similarities between them and our present situation. or, we can overemphasize superficial similarities in order to further a specific cause. -c

            When history comes, it always takes you by surprise.

            Fractals

            J 1 Reply Last reply
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            • C Chris Losinger

              Jason Henderson wrote: We can examine those patterns and see similarities between them and our present situation. or, we can overemphasize superficial similarities in order to further a specific cause. -c

              When history comes, it always takes you by surprise.

              Fractals

              J Offline
              J Offline
              Jason Henderson
              wrote on last edited by
              #7

              or, we can underemphasize significant similarities in order to further a specific cause. I think we're in an endless loop here...

              Jason Henderson
              "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

              articles profile

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              • C Chris Losinger

                ... and not many of them believe the 2003 == 1939 or 2003 = 1956 parallels. in fact, most of them start out by blasting that "history repeats itself" meme. here's a selection (all from different essays) "I don't think it's a case either of 1939 or of 1956. I'm allergic to lazy historical analogies. History never repeats itself, ever. That's its murderous charm. " "I belong to the school that doesn't put much trust in historical precedents. They only show that no precedent ever fits exactly and that history never quite repeats itself. " "Historical analogies are rarely useful..." "Nineteen thirty nine it is not. " "But to compare Saddam with Hitler is to greatly inflate his importance and the danger he poses to international order. " "History never repeats itself, so anyone looking for parallels between the present situation and past events is likely to be disappointed. Not that there has been any shortage of such parallels drawn in the past few weeks by politicians seeking to encourage their supporters or discredit their opponents. But all of them are specious in one way or another. " "The war which is likely to break out shortly is not like the second world war. All comparisons with appeasement and Munich are so much hot air which merely justifies starting a war. No historian will believe them for a moment. " "For connected reasons, neither 1939 nor 1956 offer appropriate parallels to a projected second Gulf war. " "...it is said, if we were not now to act against Saddam Hussain. But this is no more than a spin on history. The parallels are as good as non-existent. " http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,898414,00.html[^] all very interesting little mini-essays. -c

                When history comes, it always takes you by surprise.

                Fractals

                S Offline
                S Offline
                Stan Shannon
                wrote on last edited by
                #8

                Where were these same historians in the 1990's when we were repeatly told that if the US did not intervene militarily in the Serbia/Bosnia mess that WW1/WWII would inevitably be repeated because history always repeats itself. Oh, I forgot, those guys were Europeans and deserved to be liberated from tyranny. The Iraqis are only Arabs and probably would not know what to do with liberty if they had it. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle

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                • S Stan Shannon

                  Where were these same historians in the 1990's when we were repeatly told that if the US did not intervene militarily in the Serbia/Bosnia mess that WW1/WWII would inevitably be repeated because history always repeats itself. Oh, I forgot, those guys were Europeans and deserved to be liberated from tyranny. The Iraqis are only Arabs and probably would not know what to do with liberty if they had it. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle

                  C Offline
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                  Chris Losinger
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #9

                  Stan Shannon wrote: Where were these same historians in the 1990's i don't know. why don't you go ask them? luckily, this time around, someone did bother to ask them. -c

                  When history comes, it always takes you by surprise.

                  Fractals

                  S 1 Reply Last reply
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                  • C Chris Losinger

                    Stan Shannon wrote: Where were these same historians in the 1990's i don't know. why don't you go ask them? luckily, this time around, someone did bother to ask them. -c

                    When history comes, it always takes you by surprise.

                    Fractals

                    S Offline
                    S Offline
                    Stan Shannon
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #10

                    Chris Losinger wrote: luckily, this time around, someone did bother to ask them. Yeah, its kind of funny those questions only seem to get asked when a conservative Republican's ass is hanging out there. I'm certain it is only a coincidence though. A more paranoid person might begin to believe that it is all an international plot to meddle in US politics to increase the probability of Bush being defeated by a Euro-centric Democrat. Nah, I suppose that could never happen. :rolleyes: "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle

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                    • S Stan Shannon

                      Chris Losinger wrote: luckily, this time around, someone did bother to ask them. Yeah, its kind of funny those questions only seem to get asked when a conservative Republican's ass is hanging out there. I'm certain it is only a coincidence though. A more paranoid person might begin to believe that it is all an international plot to meddle in US politics to increase the probability of Bush being defeated by a Euro-centric Democrat. Nah, I suppose that could never happen. :rolleyes: "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle

                      C Offline
                      C Offline
                      Chris Losinger
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #11

                      Stan Shannon wrote: A more paranoid person might begin to believe that it is all an international plot to meddle in US politics wouldn't that be a switch... -c

                      When history comes, it always takes you by surprise.

                      Fractals

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