Why I support bringing back the death penalty...
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That case was very different... convicted on dna evidence and precious little else...
Quad skating his way through the world since the early 80's... Booger Mobile - My bright green 1964 Ford Falcon - check out the blog here!! | If you feel generous - make a donation to Camp Quality!!
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That case was very different... convicted on dna evidence and precious little else...
Quad skating his way through the world since the early 80's... Booger Mobile - My bright green 1964 Ford Falcon - check out the blog here!! | If you feel generous - make a donation to Camp Quality!!
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But the general point remains the same - if you have the death penalty you'll eventually kill an innocent person. And for what? Satisfying people's short term blood lust when they hear about something like this?
_Josh_ wrote:
But the general point remains the same - if you have the death penalty you'll eventually kill an innocent person. And for what? Satisfying people's short term blood lust when they hear about something like this?
Yes and no... I believe it should be for cases where there is absolutely no doubt at all about the guilt of the person involved... Other notable cases would be Martin Bryant (Port Arthur massacre), Ivan Milat(Belangalo State Forest).
Quad skating his way through the world since the early 80's... Booger Mobile - My bright green 1964 Ford Falcon - check out the blog here!! | If you feel generous - make a donation to Camp Quality!!
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_Josh_ wrote:
But the general point remains the same - if you have the death penalty you'll eventually kill an innocent person. And for what? Satisfying people's short term blood lust when they hear about something like this?
Yes and no... I believe it should be for cases where there is absolutely no doubt at all about the guilt of the person involved... Other notable cases would be Martin Bryant (Port Arthur massacre), Ivan Milat(Belangalo State Forest).
Quad skating his way through the world since the early 80's... Booger Mobile - My bright green 1964 Ford Falcon - check out the blog here!! | If you feel generous - make a donation to Camp Quality!!
But for what purpose? Do you think having the death penalty would have been deterrent enough to have stopped this from happening? Personally, I doubt it would have made a lick of difference.
_Damian S_ wrote:
absolutely no doubt at all about the guilt of the person involved
So more than 'beyond reasonable doubt'? You've in murky waters here Damo
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But for what purpose? Do you think having the death penalty would have been deterrent enough to have stopped this from happening? Personally, I doubt it would have made a lick of difference.
_Damian S_ wrote:
absolutely no doubt at all about the guilt of the person involved
So more than 'beyond reasonable doubt'? You've in murky waters here Damo
_Josh_ wrote:
So more than 'beyond reasonable doubt'? You've in murky waters here Damo
Yeah... that's alright, I can paddle in the murky waters, as I'm not the one making the laws!!
_Josh_ wrote:
But for what purpose?
Well, for one thing, saving $100K per year per scumbag to keep them in maximum security... Why let them continue to breathe the air that they didn't afford their victims the same right to breathe?
Quad skating his way through the world since the early 80's... Booger Mobile - My bright green 1964 Ford Falcon - check out the blog here!! | If you feel generous - make a donation to Camp Quality!!
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_Josh_ wrote:
So more than 'beyond reasonable doubt'? You've in murky waters here Damo
Yeah... that's alright, I can paddle in the murky waters, as I'm not the one making the laws!!
_Josh_ wrote:
But for what purpose?
Well, for one thing, saving $100K per year per scumbag to keep them in maximum security... Why let them continue to breathe the air that they didn't afford their victims the same right to breathe?
Quad skating his way through the world since the early 80's... Booger Mobile - My bright green 1964 Ford Falcon - check out the blog here!! | If you feel generous - make a donation to Camp Quality!!
_Damian S_ wrote:
$100K per year per scumbag
You're in full 'Today Tonight' mode now :) Can you imagine the cost of introducing the death penalty? How many lawyers would be required to write the laws? And that's just the top of the ice berg. $100K is a lot of money to you and I but less than a drop in the ocean for the government. This is why sensationalist media love big numbers.
_Damian S_ wrote:
Why let them continue to breathe the air that they didn't afford their victims the same right to breathe?
Because members of a civilized society don't kill each other.
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Perhaps not for the mother, who no doubt was also a victim of sorts, but still rightly in jail, but for the partner who brutally destroyed a young life... clickety[^]
Quad skating his way through the world since the early 80's... Booger Mobile - My bright green 1964 Ford Falcon - check out the blog here!! | If you feel generous - make a donation to Camp Quality!!
I'm with Josh and, surprisingly, MM. Let the mofu rot in jail, but no matter how heinous the crime I cannot condone the taking of a life. The death penalty is pure revenge, it doesn't solve anything, it doesn't deter other chrimes, it doesn't bring back the victims. Send the perpetrators to jail and leave them there until they die. The message is there and it is clear - "You are not civilised, you are not part of society. We the society are civilised and so we will not treat you like you treated your victims, but we will choose your destiny. Your life is now owned by society and society chooses to let you live."
Reality is an illusion caused by a lack of alcohol "Nagy, you have won the internets." - Keith Barrow
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_Damian S_ wrote:
$100K per year per scumbag
You're in full 'Today Tonight' mode now :) Can you imagine the cost of introducing the death penalty? How many lawyers would be required to write the laws? And that's just the top of the ice berg. $100K is a lot of money to you and I but less than a drop in the ocean for the government. This is why sensationalist media love big numbers.
_Damian S_ wrote:
Why let them continue to breathe the air that they didn't afford their victims the same right to breathe?
Because members of a civilized society don't kill each other.
_Josh_ wrote:
This is why sensationalist media love big numbers.
British public wrong about nearly everything[^] And the reason they are wrong about nearly everything is because the media who give them most of their 'facts' make it seem so with the way they present those big numbers.
“I believe that there is an equality to all humanity. We all suck.” Bill Hicks
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_Josh_ wrote:
So more than 'beyond reasonable doubt'? You've in murky waters here Damo
Yeah... that's alright, I can paddle in the murky waters, as I'm not the one making the laws!!
_Josh_ wrote:
But for what purpose?
Well, for one thing, saving $100K per year per scumbag to keep them in maximum security... Why let them continue to breathe the air that they didn't afford their victims the same right to breathe?
Quad skating his way through the world since the early 80's... Booger Mobile - My bright green 1964 Ford Falcon - check out the blog here!! | If you feel generous - make a donation to Camp Quality!!
_Damian S_ wrote:
Well, for one thing, saving $100K per year per scumbag to keep them in maximum security.
As I posted the other day when this reared its head in the lounge, the reality is that it costs more to execute someone than to keep them locked up for the rest of their lives. Aside from that I agree with everything Josh and Nagy have put. It is not a deterrent, loss of life is not a greater punishment than loss of liberty, it is about revenge, and it is a hollow revenge that very, very rarely brings any comfort to the families of the victims even if they thought it might do beforehand. And in a civilised society you cannot say it is wrong for you to kill but OK for us.
“I believe that there is an equality to all humanity. We all suck.” Bill Hicks
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I'm with Josh and, surprisingly, MM. Let the mofu rot in jail, but no matter how heinous the crime I cannot condone the taking of a life. The death penalty is pure revenge, it doesn't solve anything, it doesn't deter other chrimes, it doesn't bring back the victims. Send the perpetrators to jail and leave them there until they die. The message is there and it is clear - "You are not civilised, you are not part of society. We the society are civilised and so we will not treat you like you treated your victims, but we will choose your destiny. Your life is now owned by society and society chooses to let you live."
Reality is an illusion caused by a lack of alcohol "Nagy, you have won the internets." - Keith Barrow
One might also note that criminals who are sentenced to death also spend years if not decades in jail before the the penalty is executed... I must admit that I think that death sentence is not in itself a bad solution. The problem is: what do you do when you killed a murderer only to find out a year later that you have erred? you can't make amendments then. As long as there is not 100% evidence of the guilt there should also not be a death penalty. What I for one do not understand: How is it possible that prisoners have a better life than some homeless/jobless people? Food, shelter, gym, tv other facilities etc.? I don't think thats exactly the punishment one would expect... I don't expect from them to go back to the middle age with a wooden cot, water and moldy bread... But the luxury of todays prisons is getting a bit out of hand for my taste...
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One might also note that criminals who are sentenced to death also spend years if not decades in jail before the the penalty is executed... I must admit that I think that death sentence is not in itself a bad solution. The problem is: what do you do when you killed a murderer only to find out a year later that you have erred? you can't make amendments then. As long as there is not 100% evidence of the guilt there should also not be a death penalty. What I for one do not understand: How is it possible that prisoners have a better life than some homeless/jobless people? Food, shelter, gym, tv other facilities etc.? I don't think thats exactly the punishment one would expect... I don't expect from them to go back to the middle age with a wooden cot, water and moldy bread... But the luxury of todays prisons is getting a bit out of hand for my taste...
Prisons have a number of functions, punishment, protection of the public, and in most cases rehabilitation. I also think, having been inside a few prisons and known a few people who have been guests for a while as well as a screw or two, that the public perception of prisons is far cushier than the reality. See above post about British public being wrong about almost everything.
“I believe that there is an equality to all humanity. We all suck.” Bill Hicks
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_Damian S_ wrote:
Well, for one thing, saving $100K per year per scumbag to keep them in maximum security.
As I posted the other day when this reared its head in the lounge, the reality is that it costs more to execute someone than to keep them locked up for the rest of their lives. Aside from that I agree with everything Josh and Nagy have put. It is not a deterrent, loss of life is not a greater punishment than loss of liberty, it is about revenge, and it is a hollow revenge that very, very rarely brings any comfort to the families of the victims even if they thought it might do beforehand. And in a civilised society you cannot say it is wrong for you to kill but OK for us.
“I believe that there is an equality to all humanity. We all suck.” Bill Hicks
yeah, that's exactly why i say that they should work. preferable on a mine or some other undesirable job.
I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p) "Given the chance I'd rather work smart than work hard." - PHS241 "'Sophisticated platform' typically means 'I have no idea how it works.'"
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Prisons have a number of functions, punishment, protection of the public, and in most cases rehabilitation. I also think, having been inside a few prisons and known a few people who have been guests for a while as well as a screw or two, that the public perception of prisons is far cushier than the reality. See above post about British public being wrong about almost everything.
“I believe that there is an equality to all humanity. We all suck.” Bill Hicks
I as a citizen weigh "punishment" and "protection of the public" however far higher than "rehabilitation"... And I suppose I'm not the only one. I have seen some prisons too (however never been inside one). I guess for lesser crimes it doesn't have to be that strict. (there are even some concepts where you can continue your work at your workplace, but you have to speend your free time (including nights and weekends) in the prison.) As I'm not a psychologist (or at least very experienced at psychology) I can only guess how hard it is to be jailed. Also it probably differs in every country. I once saw a documentation about a prison in Norway where the prisoners where nearly free. The only bounds where that they had to stay on the island where the prison is located: see Link[^] In February a german journalist choose to go to jail for 2 days instead of paying a fine for 350 CHF (around 370 USD). Afterwards he laughed about his stay there. And that there more facilities that a lot of hotels offer their residents... How can a jail be punishment if it's preferable to paying a bit of money? Note: the fine was for speeding (116 km/h instead of 100, and yes in Switzerland the fines are generally very high) Source for reference (in German): Link[^]
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But for what purpose? Do you think having the death penalty would have been deterrent enough to have stopped this from happening? Personally, I doubt it would have made a lick of difference.
_Damian S_ wrote:
absolutely no doubt at all about the guilt of the person involved
So more than 'beyond reasonable doubt'? You've in murky waters here Damo
I'd go further, I'd say this was impossible.
PB 369,783 wrote:
I just find him very unlikeable, and I think the way he looks like a prettier version of his Mum is very disturbing.[^]
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yeah, that's exactly why i say that they should work. preferable on a mine or some other undesirable job.
I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p) "Given the chance I'd rather work smart than work hard." - PHS241 "'Sophisticated platform' typically means 'I have no idea how it works.'"
Well as the UK has closed most of its mines that would be difficult. :) The problem with making prisoners work is that you have to make sure that the work they do is not taking away from work that a free man could be paid to be doing. I agree with the sentiment, putting it into practice is not as simple as it may appear.
“I believe that there is an equality to all humanity. We all suck.” Bill Hicks
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I as a citizen weigh "punishment" and "protection of the public" however far higher than "rehabilitation"... And I suppose I'm not the only one. I have seen some prisons too (however never been inside one). I guess for lesser crimes it doesn't have to be that strict. (there are even some concepts where you can continue your work at your workplace, but you have to speend your free time (including nights and weekends) in the prison.) As I'm not a psychologist (or at least very experienced at psychology) I can only guess how hard it is to be jailed. Also it probably differs in every country. I once saw a documentation about a prison in Norway where the prisoners where nearly free. The only bounds where that they had to stay on the island where the prison is located: see Link[^] In February a german journalist choose to go to jail for 2 days instead of paying a fine for 350 CHF (around 370 USD). Afterwards he laughed about his stay there. And that there more facilities that a lot of hotels offer their residents... How can a jail be punishment if it's preferable to paying a bit of money? Note: the fine was for speeding (116 km/h instead of 100, and yes in Switzerland the fines are generally very high) Source for reference (in German): Link[^]
Nicholas Marty wrote:
I as a citizen weigh "punishment" and "protection of the public" however far higher than "rehabilitation"
Rehabilitation is the same as protection of the public if you look at the future as well. You have to keep locked up those who are a danger to the public or their property. You have to try to make those you release less likely to re-offend, and that is somewhere that many countries struggle I believe. Does making prisons more unpleasant make those released less keen to go back again? Does releasing someone who can fit back into society and get a job make them less likely to re-offend? Prisons should not, in any situation, be a luxury, but I am all in favour of providing education and doing all that can be done to release people who have the best chance possible to make a positive contribution than a negative one to society from that point on.
“I believe that there is an equality to all humanity. We all suck.” Bill Hicks
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Nicholas Marty wrote:
I as a citizen weigh "punishment" and "protection of the public" however far higher than "rehabilitation"
Rehabilitation is the same as protection of the public if you look at the future as well. You have to keep locked up those who are a danger to the public or their property. You have to try to make those you release less likely to re-offend, and that is somewhere that many countries struggle I believe. Does making prisons more unpleasant make those released less keen to go back again? Does releasing someone who can fit back into society and get a job make them less likely to re-offend? Prisons should not, in any situation, be a luxury, but I am all in favour of providing education and doing all that can be done to release people who have the best chance possible to make a positive contribution than a negative one to society from that point on.
“I believe that there is an equality to all humanity. We all suck.” Bill Hicks
ChrisElston wrote:
Does releasing someone who can fit back into society and get a job make them less likely to re-offend?
Most likely: Yes.
ChrisElston wrote:
Does making prisons more unpleasant make those released less keen to go back again?
"less keen": I suppose so. Less likely to re-offend? Not necessarily. But, if you don't fear something how can it work as a deterrent?
ChrisElston wrote:
Prisons should not, in any situation, be a luxury, but I am all in favour of providing education and doing all that can be done to release people who have the best chance possible to make a positive contribution than a negative one to society from that point on.
With that I agree.
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ChrisElston wrote:
Does releasing someone who can fit back into society and get a job make them less likely to re-offend?
Most likely: Yes.
ChrisElston wrote:
Does making prisons more unpleasant make those released less keen to go back again?
"less keen": I suppose so. Less likely to re-offend? Not necessarily. But, if you don't fear something how can it work as a deterrent?
ChrisElston wrote:
Prisons should not, in any situation, be a luxury, but I am all in favour of providing education and doing all that can be done to release people who have the best chance possible to make a positive contribution than a negative one to society from that point on.
With that I agree.
Nicholas Marty wrote:
ChrisElston wrote:
Does making prisons more unpleasant make those released less keen to go back again?
"less keen": I suppose so. Less likely to re-offend? Not necessarily.
But, if you don't fear something how can it work as a deterrent?Depends how bad you life is on the outside. The 'short, sharp, shock' that is often talked about only works to those of a more privileged background. If you view your future on the outside as one of poverty with no hope of getting a job then free bed and board, no matter how basic, for a while is not going to put you off. In some parts of America young black men have a longer life expectancy on death row than they do outside of prison.
“I believe that there is an equality to all humanity. We all suck.” Bill Hicks
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Nicholas Marty wrote:
ChrisElston wrote:
Does making prisons more unpleasant make those released less keen to go back again?
"less keen": I suppose so. Less likely to re-offend? Not necessarily.
But, if you don't fear something how can it work as a deterrent?Depends how bad you life is on the outside. The 'short, sharp, shock' that is often talked about only works to those of a more privileged background. If you view your future on the outside as one of poverty with no hope of getting a job then free bed and board, no matter how basic, for a while is not going to put you off. In some parts of America young black men have a longer life expectancy on death row than they do outside of prison.
“I believe that there is an equality to all humanity. We all suck.” Bill Hicks
And thats why it would be by far more important to invest into prevention instead of retaliation ;)
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One might also note that criminals who are sentenced to death also spend years if not decades in jail before the the penalty is executed... I must admit that I think that death sentence is not in itself a bad solution. The problem is: what do you do when you killed a murderer only to find out a year later that you have erred? you can't make amendments then. As long as there is not 100% evidence of the guilt there should also not be a death penalty. What I for one do not understand: How is it possible that prisoners have a better life than some homeless/jobless people? Food, shelter, gym, tv other facilities etc.? I don't think thats exactly the punishment one would expect... I don't expect from them to go back to the middle age with a wooden cot, water and moldy bread... But the luxury of todays prisons is getting a bit out of hand for my taste...
Nicholas Marty wrote:
How is it possible that prisoners have a better life than some homeless/jobless people?
The mere fact that they cannot decide on their schedule, and that they are not free, makes their life far worse than being homeless/jobless. Ask homeless people if they'd want to go to jail instead of being in the street...
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus Do not feed the troll ! - Common proverb